I definitely took part in that discussion (on the wrong side) fueled on by my desire to keep Salamence OU. But after playing this newer Metagame, it sure is a lot more fun. Especially when building a team. I don't stop halfway through to check if I have a check to Salamence or not, and then if I don't put a Scizor on the team. Instead now I'm just building teams with newer Pokemon that I'm getting to try out and see used to good success (I think someone else mentioned CB Pert).
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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I definitely took part in that discussion (on the wrong side) fueled on by my desire to keep Salamence OU. But after playing this newer Metagame, it sure is a lot more fun. Especially when building a team. I don't stop halfway through to check if I have a check to Salamence or not, and then if I don't put a Scizor on the team. Instead now I'm just building teams with newer Pokemon that I'm getting to try out and see used to good success (I think someone else mentioned CB Pert).
Well, unless you mean the decrease is relative to standard as well, no, it can't, since Latias is banned! (Kidding, I know what you mean.) Anyway, while you're right in that people are finding 'unconventional' ways to beat stall, stall is still being used a lot, so I can see why people think it's a 'stallfest'. I'm enjoying this metagame so far, though.
Even if what you say may be true, there's still reason to play in that the ladder is fun, and if Salamence does wind up banned, you'll have a team for it. Also, keep in mind that the thread will be taken into account by council members, so posting your opinion is definitely worthwhile if you can express it clearly and intelligently (as well as substantiate your argument with experiences from the ladder, of course).
I see where your coming from on all points and we could probably debate for quite some time. I know it sounds like I contradicted myself but I never said Mence wasn't powerful I just mentioned that no one I know (including me) is even scared of salamence any more.
Any ways I guess we'll just have to see how the testing goes.
Any ways I guess we'll just have to see how the testing goes.
I haven't played too much Suspect (five hours), but something that can really rip shit up is Modest Specs Kingdra. It outruns Jolly Breloom and Adamant Gyarados and has 317 Special Attack (the SAME as Latias).
Both have STAB Draco Meteor of equivilent power.
Only Kingdra has STAB Surf or Hydro Pump, which is 189% as powerful as Latias Surf.
Kingdra is not Pursuit weak and can OHKO both Scizor and Tyranitar. Kingdra can easily get a free hit off Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados, Metagross, Swampert, Vaporeon etc. No one switches Blissey directly what is primarily Dragon Dance or mixed, instead going to Swampert, Gyarados or Skarmory.
Both have STAB Draco Meteor of equivilent power.
Only Kingdra has STAB Surf or Hydro Pump, which is 189% as powerful as Latias Surf.
Kingdra is not Pursuit weak and can OHKO both Scizor and Tyranitar. Kingdra can easily get a free hit off Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados, Metagross, Swampert, Vaporeon etc. No one switches Blissey directly what is primarily Dragon Dance or mixed, instead going to Swampert, Gyarados or Skarmory.
Too bad Kingdra is nowhere near as fast as Latias, isn't Immune to the most used move in the game and lacks an electric resistance. Oh, its also less bulky and can't check a huge majority of special attackers. But besides that, they're pretty much the same pokemon!
Oh, and this thread is about Salamence, not Latias.
@ Lordkira, below me - The most dangerous thing about Salamence is his versatility. Each separate set is perfectly counterable, the problem is knowing which set Salamence is running. When you first see mence, you pretty much have to guess which set it's running. You have about a 50% chance of being wrong, and if you are, you could be switching your fully-capable-of-beating-DDMence, Swampert, straight into a Draco Meteor and a sure 2HKO. Overall though, Dragon Dance Salamence is probably the most dangerous.
I think Epic Cherubi was trying to say that Kingdra is good on suspect, and while not a replacement for Latias, makes for a pretty good sweeper with some parallels :) You're both right -- Kingdra lacks Latias's sheer awesome and isn't as easy to just slap in a team, but Kingdra is still quite good, especially with Latias and co. gone.
I play about an hour of suspect, using old, retired teams and found out that this metagame is pretty enjoyable. There's a rise in grass type, mainly Celebi and Breloom which are a total whores to take down (Especially breloom, but hey, what's new). Also more Heatrans too, particularly to have synergy with the aforementioned two.
Thank you. Its also not Pursuit weak and is only really weak to Dragon moves which are as good as gone from OU barring Flygon, who is OHKOed by either of Kingdra's STABs.
Just wondering, what is it that you don't like about the metagame? You're one of the few players I actually give a rats ass about, so I'm interested in what you don't like so far. Like you said yourself, everybody else seems to be enjoying it aside from random scrubs who hardly know what they're talking about anyways.
ps i like the quote in your sig lol
ps i like the quote in your sig lol
i really hope salamence doesn't get banned. I hate stall, and now it's even harder to break. I currently find the best way to deal with it is gliscor in the sand. Works for me
I've found the current metagame to be slightly more able to deal with Rain Dance, but not too much more...
I've noticed that the major complaint being brought up by those who think he's uber is simply because they are morose from having to "predict which set he's using." This is faulty logic at best... Not only is almost the entirety of the OU meta-game about predicting, but there are a plethora of pokemon with diverse destructive sets to them that can crush you when you switch in anticipating a different set. For example, Lucario often makes people anticipate a swords dance sweeper, but he can be sweeping specially by the time the opponent sends out their physical wall.
I really enjoy the suspect metagame. Its really not that hard to break stall. Breloom and SD Heracross are great stall breakers. (WEEE HERA!!! Sorry its one of my favorite mons)
Maybe its just really nice to see some variation in sets and pokemon roles. It was getting pretty stale with just seeing the same old pokemon over and over in the same roles.
Maybe its just really nice to see some variation in sets and pokemon roles. It was getting pretty stale with just seeing the same old pokemon over and over in the same roles.
There are plenty of Pokemon that can handle Lucario regardless of which set it's using. Gliscor can switch into anything but an Ice attack and send it back out. Plenty of other Pokemon can take a hit from it and kill it, including Rotom-H, Zapdos, and Gyarados. Lucario can use Crunch to hit Ghosts hard, but then it loses its ability to deal with Gliscor. It can use Ice Punch to deal with Gliscor switch-ins, but Gyarados still walls it. And so on.
Salamence 1/2hkos everything in the game. It doesn't need to cripple itself by pack a really strange move just to deal with a single counter, because Dragon/Ground/Fire has perfect coverage. So it's really more about its ability to deal with any threat as long as it has the right set. Of course you're still going to need to predict correctly to get the results you really want from it.
Just a question. Does this site favor offensive metagames? I noticed a lot of people complaining about how the game has become stall/semi-stall. Personally, I love that kind of metagame. I fear that Salamence will remain OU only because the people voting prefer fast paced games over slow paced ones.
Salamence arguably hurts offense more than it hurts defense. Defensive teams can wear Salamence down with residual damage and smart moves. Offense lacks such a luxury.
also nice pretentious sig Zelrio
also nice pretentious sig Zelrio
I, on average, take out two of my opponent's pokemon with choice specs vacuum wave (or aura sphere depending on the team). A great revenge killer, to boot. He "ain't" awful.
As far as I see, you're looking at Salamence's ability to function as a Mixed Sweeper and DD Sweeper as coming from the same pokemon. I view the two sets as two different pokemon that could only really be dangerous if the Species Clause did not prevent us from having more than one of the same type of pokemon on our team. It's really easy, in my opinion, to predict which set your opponent is using. Only noobs send out sweepers that require setting up right away, so one can anticipate the 4-attack mixed sweeper if he sees Salamence being sent out. I've had great results using Swampert on my sandstorm team against both types, especially the MixMence that everyone seems to hate for "ruining stall." I really wish I could speak from more experience in this discussion with you, but since I lack Pokesav, I only have 1 and 5/6th real teams (as Latias was just banned).
No need for jealousy.
lol sorry, I forgot Dragonite.
Aha! But Dragonite is slower (I run Kingdra to outrun Jolly Breloom and put the rest in HP, this is a few points higher than Adamant Dragonite) and 2HKOed by Specs Hydro Pump after Stealth Rocks. Its OHKOed by -2 Draco Meteor as well!
And if you're not playing a noob? It's not always obvious what they're running.
Zelrio said:
16 Atk "New Mixmence" Outrage vs. 252/252 Swampert: 42.3%-50%
240 SpA "New Mixmence" Draco Meteor vs. 252/0 Swampert: 71.3%-83.9%
240 SpA "New Mixmence" Draco Meteor vs. 252/216 Swampert: 52%-61.1%
Amount of damage needed for a 2hko after SR and Leftovers: 46.6%
232 Atk "Dragon Dance" Outrage vs. 252/252 Swampert: 49.3%-58.2%
232 Atk "Dragon Dance" +1 Outrage vs. 252/252 Swampert: 73.8%-87.1%
In the best case scenario for Swampert, it still has a high chance of being 2hkoed by Mixmence. If your Swampert isn't running a lot of SpD EVs, it WILL lose to Mixmence. For the DD set, A FULL HP, MAX HP/DEF EVs Swampert can only barely switch into a +1 Outrage and 1hko back. Swampert needs to sacrifice over 90% of its hp no matter what the case to take down Salamence. And a smart player isn't going to let you do that.
Since I don't see this very much in the OU metagame, there may be a counter for Salamence if you're willing to go the distance. I use it, so I know what it can do.
I recall someone saying that people with good defensive teams can whittle Mence down with residual damage. That's exactly what I'm doing with my SS Shuckle, and I pretty much registered for this site to post this for the people who don't know.
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Bold | Gluttony
252 HP/ 252 DEF/ 6 Sp. D
~ Toxic
~ Encore
~ Rest
~ Knock Off
This is the set I use on my Shuckle. Yes, I use a Shuckle -.- Anyway, this can be a cool counter for any Salamence set because of Shuckles awesome defenses, it can take hits from Salamence all day. Because of sandstorm, Shuckles defenses are balanced out and it's ready to stall. Toxic + Sandstorm = more damage each turn, and once Shuckle Knocks Off Mence's Life Orb or whatever other thing it's holding, it gives Shuckle the advantage because Mence won't be doing as much without Life Orb. With Stealth Rock, Toxic Poison, and Sandstorm, Mence is pretty much crippled for the rest of the match if the opponent chooses to switch out. If they stay in, Shuckle can just Rest off the damage taken from repeated blows from Mence. Maybe in like 5 turns or something the opposing Mence will be falling into the little hole on the other side of the screen.
This is what I use on my sandstorm team to effectively deal with threats like Dragonite and Salamence, mostly Mence. I don't know about you guys, but it works really well for me.
If Salamence does go to Uber though, Shuckle will have an easier time stalling and stuff, since Shuckle is threatened most by Mence in the OU meta.
Also, since I'm kinda new here, I'd like to know how to play on this suspect ladder. Just to see what Mence-free feels like. Could someone please help me? Thanks.
I recall someone saying that people with good defensive teams can whittle Mence down with residual damage. That's exactly what I'm doing with my SS Shuckle, and I pretty much registered for this site to post this for the people who don't know.
Shuckle @ Leftovers
Bold | Gluttony
252 HP/ 252 DEF/ 6 Sp. D
~ Toxic
~ Encore
~ Rest
~ Knock Off
This is the set I use on my Shuckle. Yes, I use a Shuckle -.- Anyway, this can be a cool counter for any Salamence set because of Shuckles awesome defenses, it can take hits from Salamence all day. Because of sandstorm, Shuckles defenses are balanced out and it's ready to stall. Toxic + Sandstorm = more damage each turn, and once Shuckle Knocks Off Mence's Life Orb or whatever other thing it's holding, it gives Shuckle the advantage because Mence won't be doing as much without Life Orb. With Stealth Rock, Toxic Poison, and Sandstorm, Mence is pretty much crippled for the rest of the match if the opponent chooses to switch out. If they stay in, Shuckle can just Rest off the damage taken from repeated blows from Mence. Maybe in like 5 turns or something the opposing Mence will be falling into the little hole on the other side of the screen.
This is what I use on my sandstorm team to effectively deal with threats like Dragonite and Salamence, mostly Mence. I don't know about you guys, but it works really well for me.
If Salamence does go to Uber though, Shuckle will have an easier time stalling and stuff, since Shuckle is threatened most by Mence in the OU meta.
Also, since I'm kinda new here, I'd like to know how to play on this suspect ladder. Just to see what Mence-free feels like. Could someone please help me? Thanks.
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