I said Scizor was a check. BP does check Salmence. He cannot switch in, and if you get Scizor in safely he needs to switch out.
I disagree. Having one check/counter does not mean he isn't overpowered/overcentralizing.
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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I said Scizor was a check. BP does check Salmence. He cannot switch in, and if you get Scizor in safely he needs to switch out.
I disagree. Having one check/counter does not mean he isn't overpowered/overcentralizing.
Just because a metagame can handle a Pokemon in no way implies that the Pokemon is fair. Scizor may be able to put the hurt on Salamence, but that is not and will never be a legitimate case for the tiering of Salamence as OU. You have to look at the bigger picture and determine if Salamence is indeed able to beat and run through a sizable portion of the metagame without much trouble, despite there being things that can kill it.Ericcc said:
What an ignorant thing to say. Nobody uses field hazards "for Salamence". Stealth Rock's damage contribution over the course of a match will remain invaluable with or without Salamence, and Tyranitar is inarguably one of the most powerful Pokemon in the game (in April he was used more often than Salamence, even) and he brings Sandstorm automatically. People use these field effects because they weaken everything, not just Salamence.
That sounds like a lot more Pokemon than Magnezone. Salamence, unlike Scizor, can steamroll through most of the Pokemon in the metagame without significant effort. I believe he fits the offensive characteristic.
I am aware that Stealth Rock is an amazing move. However, I feel that Salamence makes it almost mandatory to have where as before you could possibly get away without having it. Giving Salamence damage free switch-ins is almost like a death sentence.
If you think Magnezone is the only reliable counter to Scizor you have absolutely no call to be criticizing anyone about shitty logic, ever. First of all, Magnezone is a terrible counter to Scizor because it can't switch on Superpower safely. It's more of a check. There are. however, plenty of reliable counters to Scizor. Rotom, Zapdos, Hippodowon, Skarmory, and many, many others counter the standard CB/LO set 100% of the time, and most of those do fine handling the Swords Dance set too. Please don't post again until you have at least a basic understanding of the metagame.
Again, you're just stacking numbers that don't mean a damn thing and exaggerating your point. Scizor loses 12% to SR to do shit for damage to Heatran. Mence lost 25% to SR, and he's going to lose another if he tries to come back in. Weavile can Pursuit him if your opponent tries to preserve him, which completely removes him from the match. Who the hell cares if something gets forced out by Scizor? That's what happens in any regular match. Every turn, something attacks and something counters. Scizor didn't make the game any different.
No, Magnezone is a terrible counter to Scizor only because bringing it in on U-turn is a bad idea. You don't bring it out until you know it's going to Bullet Punch or Pursuit, or on the revenge, in which case Scizor is completely trapped and removed from the game. If your opponent faces you again, Scizor is basically neutered because it has to play extremely conservatively in order to survive, which diminishes its influence greatly in subsequent matches. Magnezone is a Scizor trapper, not a Scizor counter, which is arguably far more useful.
Bringing literally anything in on U-Turn is a bad idea. As far as that goes, Magnezone is actually better than, say, Zapdos just because it's resistant to SR and takes less from U-Turn, so you don't lose as much when your opponent switches to something that can force it out.
Offensive Zapdos says "hi" to your F/W/G cores. He's useful in his own right (so you're not sacrificing any space on your team) and makes playing the F/W/G cores more like playing a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Except doing damage and keeping momentum of the match are exactly how games are won. So your logic is illogical. Sure Mence lost 25% to SR, but you just lost a whole pokemon to him, otherwise Weavile would not be there, unless you switched him in on a DD, in which case I must congratulate you for making a useless pokemon do something for once. And okay, if you wanna Pursuit what would happen if I decide to stay in and rape Weavile predicting your Pursuit? You lose a second pokemon, and most likely a third since I doubt you have another Ice priority user.
"the most used move on most used pokemon in Standard".
Note the absence of the word "the" before the second "most" in that sentence. Indicating that "pokemon" is plural. Indicating that the move referred to is in fact Earthquake. Please don't be rude to people for not reading carefully enough if you haven't either.
That was actually my mistake, I left the word "the" out.
Although, most of the people I've battled says hi to Offensive Zapdos by stacking Blissey on their team as well. Not cool.
Care to elaborate?? If you're talking about the OC, then you're probably thinking of the Offensive DD set, since Mixmences don't sweep. It's not going to be sweeping most of the time, since Steels would come in and revenge you on the Outrage, while you need Outrage to get KOs on a lot of things. Oh, run Magnezone, they say. Firstly Magnezone can't trap every Steel (Heatran and Metagross say hi if they're running some Speed), and the fact that you need to run Magnezone is quite a bit of support already. Secondly, Mence needs SR off the field to be truly effective, since losing 16% per turn + 25% from Stealth Rock means Mence only has 4 attacks, if you're going to DD the first turn. You can basically poke the Offensive DD Mence (With any priority move) and it will die. Thirdly, Base 100 Speed is great, but it sometimes does not reach what it needs to (Scarf Latias used to be here, but stuff like Scarf Gengar might pop up). Now you have to run Scizor or TTar to Pursuit them to death. Way too much support. Does not fit OC.
-I'm really frequent on ShoddyBattle, logging in as much as every single day. From what I've noticed that Mence seems to be on a different level than every other pokemon in OU (everyone knows this already, just putting it out there.) However, the niches that Mence fills can be taken up by other pokemon, which brings me to my point. If we ban all the pokemon in OU and below that have seemingly "unfair" advantages, the only thing that's going to be left is Pachirisu. A Mence-less OU, welcomes a lot more threats, and makes already "broken" pokemon even more broken. Even so, a Gliscor baton passing Rock Polish onto a MixMence makes me lulz.
-Suspect has been too much luls, now that Mence is bye-bye. Seeing as I have both Gliscor AND Infernape on my team, not to mention a trap passer Umbreon, my team simply eats stall alive. Due to the lack of Mence(which I don't run, along with the now non-existent Latias, Scizor, Breloom, Blissey, and other "brokens." I'm highly considering a Banded Flygon.
Highest OU ranking: #7(Woot wewt)<-------achieved with 6 sweepers.
-Suspect has been too much luls, now that Mence is bye-bye. Seeing as I have both Gliscor AND Infernape on my team, not to mention a trap passer Umbreon, my team simply eats stall alive. Due to the lack of Mence(which I don't run, along with the now non-existent Latias, Scizor, Breloom, Blissey, and other "brokens." I'm highly considering a Banded Flygon.
Highest OU ranking: #7(Woot wewt)<-------achieved with 6 sweepers.
actually unless you have Stealth Rock on your team period, then people at gamefaqs will say your team is an instant failure.
Can you try using constructive criticism for once? Everyone's going to be biased. We might as well pick out the ones who actually know what they're talking about.
This is pretty presumptuous and non-constructive, too.
Are you fucking kidding? That's two supporting Pokemon that are very useful in their own right. You have 6 slots. There isn't a single Pokemon in OU that can wreck a team by itself. Packing a Magnezone and a Scizor on your team to support your Salamence does not cripple it.
Salamence doesn't need to destroy 6 Pokemon to have done its job. Removing a Scizor and coming out alive means it's already ahead. And if you don't have a faster Pokemon to revenge Salamence after Scizor goes down, then you've lost one Pokemon AND severely injured another.
That is called "Balance," my friend. :P
Ninety percent of the posts in this thread are useless rambling from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Please improve.
If you are going to post, make sure your ideas are grounded in actual experience and worthwhile to express publicly. Think to yourself before hitting the submit button, "If I were an undecided party reviewing this thread to form an opinion on Salamence, would the post I just wrote be helpful?" If not, just save everyone some time and delete it.
If you are going to post, make sure your ideas are grounded in actual experience and worthwhile to express publicly. Think to yourself before hitting the submit button, "If I were an undecided party reviewing this thread to form an opinion on Salamence, would the post I just wrote be helpful?" If not, just save everyone some time and delete it.
I'm not going to comment much on Salamence except to say that I considered DDMence on superior to SD Chomp as a sweeper while Salamence on a whole is a lot less predictable.
However, I did not believe Garchomp should have been banned and I mentioned at the time that Scarfed versions actually checked DDMence (as did Latias).
Which brings me to the nagging question I've always had, what is the ultimate aim of these exercises?
There will always be Pokemon we can look askance on as being too powerful for OU and there's always the possibility that peeling them off will reveal more such.
So when is the alpha Pokemon a good king? What is the ultimate collective vision for what OU should look like? Or is it the plan to keep banning the "most broken" one left?
So far it seems that the implicit hope is that there would be no suspect eventually. This is wishful thinking as removing a Pokemon removes both a threat and a counter to threats.
[It is highly unlikley that a Pokemon significant enough to be suspect would not be doing a service in keeping a number of other offensive/defensive Pokemon in check.]
There needs to be a stopping condition for this process and it shouldn't be when so many Pokemon have been banned that it'd be scandalous to continue.
However, I did not believe Garchomp should have been banned and I mentioned at the time that Scarfed versions actually checked DDMence (as did Latias).
Which brings me to the nagging question I've always had, what is the ultimate aim of these exercises?
There will always be Pokemon we can look askance on as being too powerful for OU and there's always the possibility that peeling them off will reveal more such.
So when is the alpha Pokemon a good king? What is the ultimate collective vision for what OU should look like? Or is it the plan to keep banning the "most broken" one left?
So far it seems that the implicit hope is that there would be no suspect eventually. This is wishful thinking as removing a Pokemon removes both a threat and a counter to threats.
[It is highly unlikley that a Pokemon significant enough to be suspect would not be doing a service in keeping a number of other offensive/defensive Pokemon in check.]
There needs to be a stopping condition for this process and it shouldn't be when so many Pokemon have been banned that it'd be scandalous to continue.
I used Mence on a team and it was just to easily countered and killed before he was effective. it was always my last pokemon and some jolteon would get a speedy t-bolt and finish me off for a win. Mence is a good pokemon in OU, just not the best and I definately don't think it should be Uber anytime soon. Unless you guys give it artifical stat boosts to make it a more potent sweeper than it might be useful in Ubers, but you guys wouldn't do that right?
"Uber status is determined by power in ou, not power in ubers." This is possibly the most popular signature at the moment, and people still don't fucking get it?
I think the voting stage itself, is a little short on credibility (with only 9 voters) however on the subject of Salamence becoming Ubers I have a much more tentative view. I will attempt to point out some of the things that should be taken into consideration while testing Salamence.
- Salamence can successfully sweep away half of an unprepared team after only two dragon dances, if it gets two DD's under it's belt, it's damn near unstoppable, and is a proven match winner.
- A major problem for Salamence is Choice Band Scizor, who can switch in on a Mence locked into outrage and proceed to Bullet Punch it away, (Unless Mence has Dragon Claw over Outrage and possesses a fire attack) My point is less Salamence's means less Scizors, and the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.
- Not all teams set up stealth rock first turn, meaning salamence can switch in and DD as it pleases
- Salamence possesses no true counters, it can only realy be revenge killed by Starmie who has a weakness to CB Scizors pursuit, and Ice-shard users like Mamoswine and Weavil, both weak to CB Scizors Bullet Punch.
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