The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[SubVersion]

I am aware that Stealth Rock is an amazing move. However, I feel that Salamence makes it almost mandatory to have where as before you could possibly get away without having it. Giving Salamence damage free switch-ins is almost like a death sentence.

Heaven forbid that Salamence make using the best move in the game an even better strategy than it already was. You might as well complain that Gengar forces you to use moves that aren't Normal or Fighting.

If you're really complaining that you shouldn't have to use the game's best strategies in order to win against other competitive players, then I think you are seriously confused about what "competitive" actually means.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I think the most important thing for people who want to ban Salamence to consider is this: Is Salamence so much better than Dragonite that it is Uber where Dragonite is OU? We are lucky in this case to have two Pokemon who are very very similar, with similar niches and sets. If no one would consider Dragonite Uber (yet) then it makes a very useful benchmark to test Salamence against. For example: Mixmence is great at decimating teams, but is it so much better than Dragonite at this? Is Intimidate + slightly more SATK + slightly more SPE - a bunch of a special bulk - some good moves = Uber where Dragonite = OU? I believe this is one of the more important points of contention that has been (relatively) untouched. I think I will be playtesting with the same team, but with Dragonite over Mence in Suspect and vice versa in Standard, to see how great the difference is. I hope others do the same.

 

[Aqueos]

Yes drago is so SSSSLLLLLLOOOOWWW that weavile and (I think() starmie can ko without a boost even after d-dance. It also has less special attack and no intimidate. All it has is a slightly better special movepool that doesn't do it much good, and extreme speed and superpower, along with a bit more bulk but no intimidate.... 20 less base speed is not a little, its a lot....

 

[eastamazonantidote]

Dragonite is waaaaaaay slower than Salamence and way too slow to be a truly potent pure Dragon Dancer. Though his movepool is much better, who uses stuff like Surf? Dragonite's offensive movepool is more varied because he doesn't have Salamence's insane wreaking power and much therefore break the Dragon / Ground / Fire triad. That extra 20 speed makes tons of difference and the extra 10 attack makes Salamence much more threatening.

I personally don't worry too much about Salamence because I run a very dedicated stall team. However, saving resources for Salamence and Salamence only has been rather frustrating and I have enjoyed the Suspect metagame much more because of this. However, Dragonite does have some pretty insane wreaking power in the CB and Mix sets and can DD up several times unhindered, so I still have to put some effort into stopping a Dragon.

 

[Ericcc]

I think the most important thing for people who want to ban Salamence to consider is this: Is Salamence so much better than Dragonite that it is Uber where Dragonite is OU? We are lucky in this case to have two Pokemon who are very very similar, with similar niches and sets. If no one would consider Dragonite Uber (yet) then it makes a very useful benchmark to test Salamence against. For example: Mixmence is great at decimating teams, but is it so much better than Dragonite at this? Is Intimidate + slightly more SATK + slightly more SPE - a bunch of a special bulk - some good moves = Uber where Dragonite = OU? I believe this is one of the more important points of contention that has been (relatively) untouched. I think I will be playtesting with the same team, but with Dragonite over Mence in Suspect and vice versa in Standard, to see how great the difference is. I hope others do the same.

Dragonite is far too hopelessly slow to even come close to how well Mence performs in OU. The Special Attack difference isn't that noticeable, but the fact that you get KO'd by your opponent before you even have the chance to attack really puts Dragonite in a tight space. There's a very large gap between the potential of Dragonite and Mence in the OU metagame. Sure, Dragonite will do well once it has a few DD's under its belt, but so would Salamence.
Let me put it at this - Mix Dragonite sucks because of its low speed. DD Night is just as good as Mence, although you might get revenge killed easier than Mence because of the lower speed.
The greater overall bulk of Dragonite doesn't really matter as long as you're still weak to the same things as Dragonite (meaning, an Ice Beam coming from Starmie will still [possibly] OHKO, and SR still cuts your HP 25% every time you switch in.

 

[SJCrew]

Mence's speed changes a lot, and I mean A LOT. Dragonite still gets checked by faster scarfers like Flygon and Jirachi, (who are frequently used to check DDMence) and can be outpaced by Scarftran and base 130s after a DD.

On top of that no Intimidate means you're not checking slower physical threats like Lucario, Gyarados, Heracross, or Tyranitar; you're taking every hit they dish out harder than Mence and most of them, you don't even outspeed to kill them before they kill you. I actually posted a comprehensive list of OUs that Mence ties with/outspeeds while Dnite doesn't, and every one of them make Dnite that much less broken than Mence. No sense in having massive power if you're being outpaced and KOed before you even get to use it.

 

[M BLADE]

I don't know if Flygon checks BulkyNite.

Mine survived 3 fucking Outrages with a max HP/ max sp.def Dragonite (died to one... so the "i don't know" part).
And, people: Dragonite has no business being 100% offensive.
100% offensive Dragonite sucks and it's way outclassed even by Kingdra, for god's sake.

 

[SJCrew]

I disagree with that statement entirely. Dragonite is actually at its best when 100% offensive, as trying to compound an amalgamation of both makes you no less weak to the things you're already weak to and threaten to stop your sweep, like sweepers with an Ice move, status, and phazers. Emphasizing on power and speed allows you get past them with sheer brute force. You have a massive offensive movepool and stats to the point where choosing to emphasize on its merely above average defenses is pure folly, especially where other Pokemon with less prominent weaknesses can fulfill a similar role.

Bulky DD sets aren't necessarily bad, but you're definitely going to get the most use out of it abusing its power and coverage, especially in the Suspect metagame where there's no longer a Pokemon that does it better.

If anything, I'd say Kingdra itself is the outclassed culprit, if it's not used in Rain. Unless you're facing a heavily offensive team with things like Scarftran for it to set up on, that severe lack of power and wallbreaking potential Salamence and Dragonite have will come back to bite you when bulky Pokemon can survive your +1 Waterfalls and Outrages and either phaze, heavily damage, or KO you (I've actually even had my Lucario survive a +1 Waterfall and KO).

 

[shrang]

Specs Kingdra is IMO the best set Kingdra runs at the moment. It's only safe switch-in is probably Blissey, basically a slower, frailer Specs Latias with arguably better typing and water STAB.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

why would anyone even bring up ddmence as an attribute to its 'uberness', that's like the easiest mence of all to check and actually has hard counters................................

 

[Boondocker]

I think the voting stage itself, is a little short on credibility (with only 9 voters) however on the subject of Salamence becoming Ubers I have a much more tentative view. I will attempt to point out some of the things that should be taken into consideration while testing Salamence.

• Salamence can successfully sweep away half of an unprepared team after only two dragon dances, if it gets two DD's under it's belt, it's damn near unstoppable, and is a proven match winner.

• A major problem for Salamence is Choice Band Scizor, who can switch in on a Mence locked into outrage and proceed to Bullet Punch it away, (Unless Mence has Dragon Claw over Outrage and possesses a fire attack) My point is less Salamence's means less Scizors, and the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.

• Not all teams set up stealth rock first turn, meaning salamence can switch in and DD as it pleases

• Salamence possesses no true counters, it can only realy be revenge killed by Starmie who has a weakness to CB Scizors pursuit, and Ice-shard users like Mamoswine and Weavil, both weak to CB Scizors Bullet Punch.

While im all for sending mence to ubers there are some serious problems with this list. First of all no good player would let salamence get 2 dds. But it only needs 1 to sweep. Counters like swampert have to be in tip-top shape to beat it and get switfly taken out of the match if they switch in on a mix mence. "But lucario, gengar, and infernape can get past their counters too!" Yes, they can, but by doing so lose valuable coverage and get walled by something else. This is not the case with mence. He has 2 equealy devastating sets that require completely different counters. Now back to the list. Nerfing scizor usage is not a reason to ban salamence. Also, scizor is not a reliable check because hes complete magnezone bait. The question we need to ask and answer is "is packing a magnezone on a salamence team little support?" If it is, concider mence for ubers. If not, you might find him ou material. Personally i find it to be little support, since they resist each others weaknesses perfectly and magnezone isnt a liability against any type of team (stall, offense, balanced). A common arguement for salamence being ou is that he takes alot of residual damage. SO FUCKING WHAT? Look at ho-oh, he takes ss damage, 50% sr damage, AND possible life orb damage, yet he is still uber. A pokemon cannot be kept ou based on residual damage. Personally, i dont want to be forced to run sr on my team or be at an immediate disadvantage against any team with a salamence. Its just not fair. Yes sr helps against pokes like gyarados. But he is far less threatening and can be hard countered. Besides, gyarados has absolutely nothing do do with salamence. If he is broken then we will ban him too (hes not).

why would anyone even bring up ddmence as an attribute to its 'uberness', that's like the easiest mence of all to check and actually has hard counters................................

Because it can sweep through a significant portion of the metagame with little effort, and the threat of a mixmence makes said counters piss themselves. Mence makes you guess witch equally effective and common set its running, and a wrong guess can cost you the match.

Specs Kingdra is IMO the best set Kingdra runs at the moment. It's only safe switch-in is probably Blissey, basically a slower, frailer Specs Latias with arguably better typing and water STAB.

And no trick to beat blissey, cripple ttar/scizor, and ruin stat uppers.

I don't know if Flygon checks BulkyNite.

Mine survived 3 fucking Outrages with a max HP/ max sp.def Dragonite (died to one... so the "i don't know" part).
And, people: Dragonite has no business being 100% offensive.
100% offensive Dragonite sucks and it's way outclassed even by Kingdra, for god's sake.

Dragonite survived 3 outrages? Man i gotta start using that thing.

 

[Class]

Mence's speed changes a lot, and I mean A LOT. Dragonite still gets checked by faster scarfers like Flygon and Jirachi, (who are frequently used to check DDMence) and can be outpaced by Scarftran and base 130s after a DD.

On top of that no Intimidate means you're not checking slower physical threats like Lucario, Gyarados, Heracross, or Tyranitar; you're taking every hit they dish out harder than Mence and most of them, you don't even outspeed to kill them before they kill you. I actually posted a comprehensive list of OUs that Mence ties with/outspeeds while Dnite doesn't, and every one of them make Dnite that much less broken than Mence. No sense in having massive power if you're being outpaced and KOed before you even get to use it.

The number of flaws in that sentence lol. "Dragonite still gets checked by faster scarfers like Flygon and Jirachi (who are frequently used to check Mence). So you're saying the same things check them. Also, explain to me how a base 77 +1 is outspeeding a base 80 +1? Base 130s will also not outspeed a +1 Dragonite.

I don't know if Flygon checks BulkyNite.

Mine survived 3 fucking Outrages with a max HP/ max sp.def Dragonite (died to one... so the "i don't know" part).
And, people: Dragonite has no business being 100% offensive.
100% offensive Dragonite sucks and it's way outclassed even by Kingdra, for god's sake.

This is also ignorant. Dragonite breaks down stall 100x better than Kingdra. Kingdra is meant to abuse Rain and its STABs. Dragonite is meant to be a bulky DDer or powerful wallbreaker, just like Mence and relies on Dragon STAB + SE hits. Kingdra relies solely on neutral coverage. The two are very different. Quit comparing them.

 

[shrang]

I think it's because most people run Adamant Dragonite, who doesn't outspeed Base 130s and ScarfTran.

 

[SJCrew]

So you're saying the same things check them.

Uh, no. Mence ties with Jirachi and Flygon, meaning it has a 50% chance of beating them as opposed to Dragonite's 0.

Also, explain to me how a base 77 +1 is outspeeding a base 80 +1? Base 130s will also not outspeed a +1 Dragonite.

When no one's stupid enough to run a Jolly DDnite to the point where it's not even listed as an option on the analysis page?

 

[Epic Cherubi]

When no one's stupid enough to run a Jolly DDnite to the point where it's not even listed as an option on the analysis page?

Are you dumb boy? Use your brain for once. Just because the analysis says it doesn't make it 100% set in stone. Dragonite may very well sacrifice 10% attack for some more speed to get the jump on Heatran, Lucario and Breloom.

Both mixed and DD Dragonite can run Jolly (or Naive) if they like speed over power, its completely viable.

 

[SJCrew]

No one's stupid enough to run a Jolly DDnite

Yeah, still not buying it. If you want to be funny, you can go ahead and run it on the Suspect ladder and not get past any wall ever.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Um, how would Mence/Dnite's wall-breaking ability be any different when Mence frequently runs a neutral ATK nature (+SPE) too and their ATK differs by a massive 1 base point...? Any wall that Mence can break with its DD set, Dnite can break just as easily. Granted mixed sets have a larger difference, but really, 10 base SATK isn't going to stop you from ohkoing skarm with fire blast, certainly not to the point where running a offense-neutral nature of Dragonite is soul-crushingly worse than doing so on Mence.

 

[shrang]

I've run a Jolly CB Nite for kicks and walls succumb to it easily. It's basically like a physical Latias, albeit with crappier Speed but probably just as much if not more bulk.

 

[SJCrew]

Um, how would Mence/Dnite's wall-breaking ability be any different when Mence frequently runs a neutral ATK nature (+SPE) too and their ATK differs by a massive 1 base point...? Any wall that Mence can break with its DD set, Dnite can break just as easily. Granted mixed sets have a larger difference, but really, 10 base SATK isn't going to stop you from ohkoing skarm with fire blast, certainly not to the point where running a offense-neutral nature of Dragonite is soul-crushingly worse than doing so on Mence.

Thing is, Dragonite can afford to be slower and bulkier since it has absolutely no hope of getting past some of the scarfers Salamence does (Jirachi, Flygon, Rotom-A), so it'd be a much, much wiser investment to go full attack and hit walls as hard as possible and guarantee some KOs on bulky shit like Metagross and Celebi that refuse to die. Using it like an inferior Mence is only going to get you an inferior Mence.

@ Shrang: DDnite doesn't hit stuff on the switch-in lol. And if you want a real wallbreaker, use Heracross. Guts and STAB CC/Megahorn are the shit.

 

[shrang]

Wait, when did I say DDNite hits stuff on the switch-in?? I said NOTHING about DDNite. If you're talking about CBNite, which I WAS talking about, it pretty much 2HKOs everything in the metagame. A simple set like Outrage/Extremespeed/Fire Punch/Aqua Tail is fine enough, easily 2HKOing stuff like Gliscor, and having a great chance to 2HKO the physically bulky Skarm with Leftovers after SR with Fire Punch (Some Skarm run Shed Shell, so the 2HKO is guaranteed). Aqua Tail is also a great scouting move early game, punching things quite hard just like Specs Surf from Latias. Banded Extremespeed can also revenge Gyara is the same way Scizor revenges Mence after SR and some prior damage.

 

[Sceats]

just pointing out to those who say dragonight is too slow, gyarados is a measly 1 base point faster at 81, yet barely anyone ever complains about gyaras speed.

 

[Efemera]

just pointing out to those who say dragonight is too slow, gyarados is a measly 1 base point faster at 81, yet barely anyone ever complains about gyaras speed.

Gyarados
- is naturally bulkier
- has better defensive typing and Taunt, making a bulky EV spread more viable
- is not hampered by the existence of a priority electric attack
- outspeeds 3 Pokemon with that one base point, but most importantly outspeeds Dragonite

Dragonite is forced into a more offensive role by its typing and movepool, necessitating higher speed. Gyarados sits comfortably at 81 base speed because it isn't as likely to get killed.

 

[shrang]

Gyarados
- is naturally bulkier
- has better defensive typing and Taunt, making a bulky EV spread more viable
- is not hampered by the existence of a priority electric attack
- outspeeds 3 Pokemon with that one base point, but most importantly outspeeds Dragonite

Dragonite is forced into a more offensive role by its typing and movepool, necessitating higher speed. Gyarados sits comfortably at 81 base speed because it isn't as likely to get killed.

If Intimidate is not taken into account, Dragonite in general outbulks Gyara (Physically, while they are very similar Specially). When you're sweeping, the only turn Intimidate is going to be important is Turn 1 anyway. Dragon is almost a good defensive typing as Water anyway, resisting the common Fire, Water, Grass and (In Nite's case) neutral to Thunderbolt, the most used Special attack IIRC. Yes, Gyara has Taunt, but Dragonite has Roost, so the advantage is pretty much mitigated. Gyarados outspeeds Dragonite, yes, but since Dragonite wasn't used that much when Mence was around doesn't really improve it that much anyway.

 

[Zelrio]

Heaven forbid that Salamence make using the best move in the game an even better strategy than it already was. You might as well complain that Gengar forces you to use moves that aren't Normal or Fighting.

If you're really complaining that you shouldn't have to use the game's best strategies in order to win against other competitive players, then I think you are seriously confused about what "competitive" actually means.

You have a good point. Stealth rock is a great move and there's no point in not using it. That won't change without Salamence, after all, he's on less than 1/4th of teams, last I checked.

Can you try using constructive criticism for once? Everyone's going to be biased. We might as well pick out the ones who actually know what they're talking about.



This is pretty presumptuous and non-constructive, too.

Please try making more constructive posts.

Edit: Yes, you are a hypocrite. You used an entire post to call other people's posts nonconstructive. Oh, the irony!

 

[capefeather]

^And hypocrisy fixes this thread how?

The Salamence for Uber arguments are pretty valid, really. They've been stated over and over in this thread. The checks to DD and Mix sets are so different that what happens is that you're forced to assume one set, only to find that it's the other. It doesn't help that the Mix SET has so few "counters". This is different from an entire Pokémon having no true counters.