@choutoshio, while you pretty much summed up those 2 sets, to determine Salamence as OU or Uber, you have to look at the pokemon as a whole, not 2 seperate sets. Not knowing what set Salamence is running can be costly to an opponent, and can cause the loss of pokemon just because you have almost no clue what set it is going to be running.
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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Well, this theory is flawed when your opponent will switch to thier "check" when Salamence is sent out, the person on the recieving end has a choice of six (or less) pokemon to switch in. That pokemon will likely die (given other calcs run throughout this thread) this is most likely the same thing people use to stop a DD mence (as they have little knowledge to the set should this be mid-game) which those same pokes are often used to stop T-tar ect. While the Salamence user has no actual control over the opponents moves likely something imprtant will die, even so no wall-breaker can have complete control over what they kill, as the opponent can switch in any of thier 6 pokes, But the real problem is Salamence has killed one of yours while you are forced to make an obvious move or be punished by another Salamence attack.
But possibly the worst part is this is a Metagame bent around stopping a Salamence, yet Salamence can still guarentee at least one kill and then puts you in a good position for the rest of the match.
Salamence takes 35% or 41% after switching in and attacking; that is easily enough to attack again and likely take another foe with it and has revealed at least 3 members of your team and has broken your defensive core and likely put your revenge killer in a poor position,
Even if you happen to have fodder, which is difficult to know during the early or Mid- game as you have incomplete information, Salamence has 100 base speed, a stall team is hard pressed to outspeed it or has to take another hit. (Btw salamence will not do 40% unless resisted and the Mixmence set has perfect coverage so he can easily use another attack type)
The problem with this analogy is in Yu-Gi-Oh you have a deck of (not sure about this) 60 cards losing one is not as important as losing one in a team of six, while I agree that Yu-Gi-Oh is also a strategy game and some other analogies can be compared this one can't hold any water.
When facing a Salamence you have an~ 50/50 chance to either be swept (by a DD mence) or have a member of your team killed by a MixMence. Their is no room for any intelligent sacrifices when if you try to sac something you can get set-up on. This has happened to me before, I tried to sac my (fairly) useless lead and then was set-up on, and then I had to face Salamence that could kill most of my team and had to make a poor choice that likely lost me the game. I have done the opposite thing as well, switched in my Skarmory to wall what I could only guess was a DDMence and then was 2koed by Fireblast and had then lost my counter to other key players. Forcing your opponent into a game of guessing and then still having the upperhand afterwords is not intelligent gaming.
Salamence is consistent in getting AT LEAST one kill per game, and unlike other Wall-breakers like Infernape he can't be resonably walled, as very, very few pokes can take two attacks from a Mixed Salamence and then do ~67% in return, not to mention then be able to take an attack from a DDmence who could have set-up in that switching turn.
While I agree with most of your (very good) summing up of Salamence's two popular sets, Salamence can use both sets forcing a game of guessing on your opponent, and then has the raw muscle to power through even with correct (lucky) guesses, and can seriously punish wrong guesses.
@ Vile
Salamence doesn't have any thing that can switch into both sets, no other poke can say this without hurting their chance to do actual damage otherwise E.g. Focus Punch Gengar and U-turn, Earthquake, Thunderpunch Infernape.
...ok what other pokemon has the capacity to perform with 135 Atk/110 SpA / 100 Spe, allowing it to perform as a Physical Sweeper, Special Sweeper, and even a Mixed Sweeper. Not much compares to Salamence in terms of this. Another example of a mixed sweeper is Infernape, who has 104 Atk / 104 SpA / 108 Spe, which is severely lacking in base attack, not to mention its defensive stats of 76 HP / 71 Def / 71 SpD, which is nothing compared to Salamence's 95 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD..
The difference between misprediction on Salamence and a different pokemon is that if you guess wrong, you lose a pokemon. You can't switch to a safe wall, like Tentacruel would switch in on Infernape regardless of whether it's physical or special based, to scare it out.
If you switch Blissey in on what you think is Mixmence or Specsmence and it DD's, you can kiss your game goodbye. There's no safe switch in for Dragon, especially since all the steels are hit by Fire Blast or Earthquake, and the bulky mixed walls aren't bulky enough to guarantee survival (Cresselia being the main one).
If you switch Blissey in on what you think is Mixmence or Specsmence and it DD's, you can kiss your game goodbye. There's no safe switch in for Dragon, especially since all the steels are hit by Fire Blast or Earthquake, and the bulky mixed walls aren't bulky enough to guarantee survival (Cresselia being the main one).
azelf can replace salamence as a physical sweeper, special, or mixed sweeper, it has 125 base attack and special attack anda 115 base speed. and a choice band weavile can prably ohko salamence cause it has a faster base speed and a 120 base attack.
No, azelf cannot.
For starters, it actually has 125 Atk / 125 SpA / 115 Spe
Azelf is much more defensively weak, 75/70/70
And the big one is, Azelf has a TERRIBLE physical move pool, elemental punches are far too weak, and its STAB is resisted by Psychic types, the most prominent type in the game, as well as Steel [steel + psychic = x.25, this includes metagross and Jirachi], Dark type. Its primary STAB moves Psychic and Zen Headbutt are also much weaker than that of Outrage and Draco Meteor..
For starters, it actually has 125 Atk / 125 SpA / 115 Spe
Azelf is much more defensively weak, 75/70/70
And the big one is, Azelf has a TERRIBLE physical move pool, elemental punches are far too weak, and its STAB is resisted by Psychic types, the most prominent type in the game, as well as Steel [steel + psychic = x.25, this includes metagross and Jirachi], Dark type. Its primary STAB moves Psychic and Zen Headbutt are also much weaker than that of Outrage and Draco Meteor..
Azelf has 125 attack stats, Azelf doesn't get any 120+ STAB moves that are only resisted by one type, and has no way to boost his physical offense while a Blissey stops Nasty Plost Sets cold (sans Explosion)
Wealvile has been discussed throughly before but, Wealvile cannot switch into any of Salamence's attacks with out dying and if you get Weavile out Salamence has already killed at least one member of your team, Wealvile is easily killed by any other attack and is major Scizor Bait, and has few uses outside threatening Salamence.
true true so that leaves him for special sweeper, but as far as def. salamence isnt much beter, hp yes but not def. it caps at 284 and azelf at 262 both with the right nature but even without its still pretty close. as far physical salamence can go to 405 max and weavile at 372. thats lower but hes faster and a stab ice punch can (according to the smogon damage calculator) will ohko salamence.
Defence is not as big as an issue when it comes to offense, but it has to be considered. HP plays a huge role when considering Def or SpD, and Salamence has Intimidate which can scare off pokes.
And your argument about Weavile has nothing to do with the current issue, he is a pure physical sweeper, high atk/spe, crappy defenses. Why you brought him up is beyond me, and also if you had to calculate that Ice punch would OHKO Salamence I don't think your input is needed..no shit its going to kill.
And as xdevo13 mentioned, Weavile can't switch into any of Salamence's attacks, and Salamence after a DD outspeeds Weavile >.>, Ice Shard is nice, but its a terribly weak move otherwise. And Ice Punch is resisted by more than one type >.>
And your argument about Weavile has nothing to do with the current issue, he is a pure physical sweeper, high atk/spe, crappy defenses. Why you brought him up is beyond me, and also if you had to calculate that Ice punch would OHKO Salamence I don't think your input is needed..no shit its going to kill.
And as xdevo13 mentioned, Weavile can't switch into any of Salamence's attacks, and Salamence after a DD outspeeds Weavile >.>, Ice Shard is nice, but its a terribly weak move otherwise. And Ice Punch is resisted by more than one type >.>
It's funny because there were people in ADV claiming CBMence was ruining the game since it forced people to predict (oftentimes with very little info since it was a very popular lead) and here we are again late in this gen having a very similar debate.
Mence is... Mence. Let's face it; he centralizes the metagame. The majority of the time, unless you're above average in the skill of prediction, you need to carry a counter to one of the sets, probably the DD version because the Mixed variant is very easily revenge-killed (as MANY before me have pointed out).
It doesn't matter if his usage is #1 or not; the matter of fact is every team has a counter for him, in some form or fashion. I don't need a counter to Tyranitar or Scizor, as their weaknesses are easily exploited, and don't have nearly the amount of support and sweeping power on one Pokemon. One could go as far to say that part of the reason Scizor's usage is so high is because he's commonly used as a revenge-killer to both the DD and Mixed sets. For example, one of my teams has to run a Cresselia over a Rotom-A purely because of Mence, screwing me out of STAB Electric and Ghost attacks that my team so desperately needs.
Bottom line is, he doesn't make the metagame fun as it could be, and disrupts the balance of it, which is the entire reason for his Suspect. So it all comes down to which metagame people are finding better: Suspect or OU. Suspect = Mence to Ubers. OU = Mence stays where he is. Both/neither = Limbo??? I don't know man...
(I'm back to him for Ubers. Menceless games have shown me some things I've never even seen before pop up commonly.)
It doesn't matter if his usage is #1 or not; the matter of fact is every team has a counter for him, in some form or fashion. I don't need a counter to Tyranitar or Scizor, as their weaknesses are easily exploited, and don't have nearly the amount of support and sweeping power on one Pokemon. One could go as far to say that part of the reason Scizor's usage is so high is because he's commonly used as a revenge-killer to both the DD and Mixed sets. For example, one of my teams has to run a Cresselia over a Rotom-A purely because of Mence, screwing me out of STAB Electric and Ghost attacks that my team so desperately needs.
Bottom line is, he doesn't make the metagame fun as it could be, and disrupts the balance of it, which is the entire reason for his Suspect. So it all comes down to which metagame people are finding better: Suspect or OU. Suspect = Mence to Ubers. OU = Mence stays where he is. Both/neither = Limbo??? I don't know man...
(I'm back to him for Ubers. Menceless games have shown me some things I've never even seen before pop up commonly.)
yeah true but i wasnt the only one. there was people talkin bout dragonite, cresselia, gyrados, scizor, abomasnow, etc. talkin bout who could replace salamence with the same move set or who can wall him off. i basiccally was just trynna do the same. But i personally think salamence should not be on uber. bascally cause hes not nearly as "invinsible" like legendaries or "untouchable" like garchomp with brightpower and sanstorm. or even a mega counter like wabuffett and wynautt. thats my opinion to take in consideration
@Dozier1021, you mentioned Weavile and were comparing his sweeping abilities to Salamence, which is completely irrelevant to the topic, as the 2 are COMPLETELY different.
Dragonite is similar to Salamence, worthy of a mention, but the speed difference is rather large. Gyarados is similar to the DD set, and can somewhat check the DD set with Intimidate, and use Stone Edge/Ice Fang. Cresselia can wall Salamence depending on the set. Scizor can revenge Salamence, and Abomasnow's hail cripples Salamence. All completely relevant to Salamence
Dragonite is similar to Salamence, worthy of a mention, but the speed difference is rather large. Gyarados is similar to the DD set, and can somewhat check the DD set with Intimidate, and use Stone Edge/Ice Fang. Cresselia can wall Salamence depending on the set. Scizor can revenge Salamence, and Abomasnow's hail cripples Salamence. All completely relevant to Salamence
As for replacing Salamence, yeah, going off topic. But walling him and revenge-killing him are very important; how is one to stop Mence?
I agree, he's not nearly as durable or cheap as Garchomp or Latias, but we must factor in Intimidate and his typing; Dragon/Flying has a grand total of only two weaknesses, while resisting another 7 and an immunity. Intimidate nearly guarantees a switch if you came in on a physical hitter, and more likely than not you did to keep Salamence's HP up. From there, he has you in a bit of a stitch. What do you do?? Risk going to your DD counter, and risk losing that to a Mixed set? Go to your Steel type to the barrage of the Mixed, only to have it set up on you? We aren't talking about Salamence's defensive capabilites; they aren't nearly as important when his Speed makes him faster than most after a single DD, allowing him to 2HKO one of (and possibly only) counters to Salamence, and he's done his job by this point. Even if you do manage to pick him off later, you've taken severe damage that probably cost you the game.
EDIT: Wow, I love talking in second-person. Need to work on that.
yeah i guess i did go off topic and yeah i see ur point. but to balance him sorta off lets say if he comes in on a spec. sweeper, if thats the case im sure the person with sal isnt gonna risk a DD while taking special hit in the same turn. mostly cause alot of special sweepers like to have icebeam and an unboosted salamence wont always ohko everyone. also man spec. like to have t-wave which make DD'S speed boost worthless just about.
Sorry for such the late response, but it comes down to Salamence's additional speed and Intimidate. Salamence is able to force out anything between its and Dragonite's speed. This includes opposing Dragonite, Electivire, Gliscor, Gyarados, Heracross, Kingdra, Lucario, Roserade, Rotom-A, Suicune, and Togekiss. Not to mention all the +Speed Pokemon that can outspeed neutral natured Dragonite (which hardly, if ever run 252 EVs in Speed, so the list is actually longer): Breloom, Heatran, Metagross, Skarmory, and Smeargle. Then you have the base 100s which may be running neutral natures or possibly losing the speed tie: Celebi, Flygon, Jirachi, opposing Salamence, Tentacruel, and Zapdos. That is quite a large number of Pokemon: 22. Salamence can outrun 22 more of the 49 Pokemon in OU than Dragonite... that is huge. Granted, not all of this Pokemon have to switch out (Suicune has Ice Beam), or would stay in on either Dragonite or Salamence (Skarmory), but it shows the general idea.
lol what?
Electivire isn't used.
Gliscor is not staying into Dragonite.
If Salamence is switching into Gyarados, it's switching right the fuck back out or it's dead.
Heracross isn't used.
Salamence isn't switching in, or if it does have the balls to, it's definietly not forcing out Kingdra.
Roserade is almost always a lead so irrelevent.
Rotom-A does less to Dragonite than it would to Salamence.
Salamence isn't coming into Togekiss nor can it beat it one on one.
And if you're not using max speed Dragonite, then you're using bulky DDnite, which is completely different than Salamence entirely.
Electivire isn't used.
Gliscor is not staying into Dragonite.
If Salamence is switching into Gyarados, it's switching right the fuck back out or it's dead.
Heracross isn't used.
Salamence isn't switching in, or if it does have the balls to, it's definietly not forcing out Kingdra.
Roserade is almost always a lead so irrelevent.
Rotom-A does less to Dragonite than it would to Salamence.
Salamence isn't coming into Togekiss nor can it beat it one on one.
And if you're not using max speed Dragonite, then you're using bulky DDnite, which is completely different than Salamence entirely.
OK, the whole situation is what Salamence can force out that Dragonite cannot.
- +2 Gliscor will OHKO Dragonite with Ice Fang or Stone Edge, but Salamence can outspeed and OHKO with Draco Meteor.
- Nobody uses DD early game with Gyarados, and if SR is not up, the other team may bring in Gyarados on something like Lucario to fire off a Waterfall. Salamence can take the hit, and force it out. Dragonite cannot, because Waterfall + Stone Edge + SR KO's.
- Same thing with Kingdra as Gyarados, switching into Waterfall is easy with Intimidate. They can't outspeed you and use Outrage, unlike with Dragonite.
- Roserade as a lead is still entirely relevant. Sleep Powder will incapacitate the majority of leads, or it will fire off a Grass Knot (Swampert). Salamence can switch in after the Sleep Powder or during the Grass Knot and force Roserade out. Dragonite cannot because of HP Ice (HP Fire is on the analysis, but HP Ice is still used 21.4% of the time).
- Salamence isn't coming into Togekiss, but again I stress, forcing it out. ~60% health left and Salamence can KO it with Draco Meteor or Outrage. Togekiss can Roost before Dragonite. I'll admit, it is pretty specific.
As for Heracross and Electivire, obviously they are being used or they wouldn't be OU for the duration of the DPP metagame. Admittedly, Rotom-A is set up fodder for Dragonite.
Do you even play Pokemon?
Seriously do some research.
For example, a WHOLE WHOPPING 9.9% of all Gliscors used Ice Fang, and of all Gliscor used, only 28% used Swords Dance.
Now for Kingdra, 32.4% uses Substitute, while another 35.3% uses Rain Dance. Those should be the first two moves Kingdra uses in an ideal situation. Not to mention that both of it's Dragon attacks are at 60+% each.
Roserade as a lead will have Focus Sash. Meaning if you haven't broken it yet or used a slower Poke that got Slept, Salamence is NOT switching into Roserade because, you said it, HP Ice.
And seriously? 60%? You can say that about any Pokemon at X%. Oh gee Cresselia is at 30% you can force it out.
And Heracross has walked the edge of UU for months now. The only reason why Electivire hasn't fallen down there is because of fanboys who think "omg 13 types se!!!"
Yeah and this isn't because I'm condescending or concieted, it's because I know how to battle and at the end of the day, whos far more likely going to end up on the council? This is why your uninformed opinion doesn't matter.
Seriously do some research.
For example, a WHOLE WHOPPING 9.9% of all Gliscors used Ice Fang, and of all Gliscor used, only 28% used Swords Dance.
Now for Kingdra, 32.4% uses Substitute, while another 35.3% uses Rain Dance. Those should be the first two moves Kingdra uses in an ideal situation. Not to mention that both of it's Dragon attacks are at 60+% each.
Roserade as a lead will have Focus Sash. Meaning if you haven't broken it yet or used a slower Poke that got Slept, Salamence is NOT switching into Roserade because, you said it, HP Ice.
And seriously? 60%? You can say that about any Pokemon at X%. Oh gee Cresselia is at 30% you can force it out.
And Heracross has walked the edge of UU for months now. The only reason why Electivire hasn't fallen down there is because of fanboys who think "omg 13 types se!!!"
Yeah and this isn't because I'm condescending or concieted, it's because I know how to battle and at the end of the day, whos far more likely going to end up on the council? This is why your uninformed opinion doesn't matter.
I am getting really tired of hearing that Weavile or Mamoswine Ice Shard "counters" Salamence.
Neither Mamoswine nor Weavile can switch into any attack other than Dragon Dance, so just to bring them in you will have to let Mence kill something. And even then there is nothing that keeps Salamence in. All they have to do is bring it in, kill something, switch out when you bring in your "counter," and repeat until you lose. One of the many ironic qualities of this metagame is that the amount of switches being performed nearly necesitates a skarmory on teams simply to reduce this amount for the opponent. As a result, Salamence almost always has some setup bait for Roosting off prior Stealth Rock damage. Another thing about Skarmory being everywhere is that Weavile and Mamoswine both don't like it, so have fun having even the counters themselves warn down over time as they switch in after something dies. It is important for people to recognize that it also isn't a counter if it has worse overall survivability. No one simply keeps their monster in to die! The true winner is the thing that can hold up longer in a war of attrition.
Neither Mamoswine nor Weavile can switch into any attack other than Dragon Dance, so just to bring them in you will have to let Mence kill something. And even then there is nothing that keeps Salamence in. All they have to do is bring it in, kill something, switch out when you bring in your "counter," and repeat until you lose. One of the many ironic qualities of this metagame is that the amount of switches being performed nearly necesitates a skarmory on teams simply to reduce this amount for the opponent. As a result, Salamence almost always has some setup bait for Roosting off prior Stealth Rock damage. Another thing about Skarmory being everywhere is that Weavile and Mamoswine both don't like it, so have fun having even the counters themselves warn down over time as they switch in after something dies. It is important for people to recognize that it also isn't a counter if it has worse overall survivability. No one simply keeps their monster in to die! The true winner is the thing that can hold up longer in a war of attrition.
I'm just giving the opinion of an average player, excuse me for discussing. I personally don't even have problems with Salamence, and if you've seen my posts in this thread you would know that I haven't even been supporting Salamence for Ubers. I've simply been stating (the obvious) that Salamence has distinct advantages over Dragonite. As for who plays Pokemon, you're right, I don't have enough experience on the Shoddy Battle simulator to be a member of the council. Do you think everyone that has posted in here expects to be a member of the council? Doubt it. Good luck to you in your future endeavors, I just hope your bluntness won't overshadow your intelligence.
Isn't the definition of a counter "one can switch into a Pokemon safely and poses an immediate threat"? Starmie, Weavile, Mamoswine (hmm), Szicor etc. all failed because they cannot switch in safely. Skarmory is not that useful other than absorbing Outrage, which I am surprised less people are using outrage now.
Back on topic: so which one is relavent now, Support or Offensive? Seriously guys stop playing with the unpredictability thing and get back to the Uber/OU discussion.
EDIT: oh and stop comparing with other pokemon if possible. We did nothing like that for Garchomp and Latias.
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