The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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Just to point out, all sweepers are meant to get a kill per game, and revenge killers are meant to kill those sweepers. Salamence can prove to be both a sweeper and a revenge killer, making it so good. However, SR damage and life orb recoil (Mixmence) limit it's ability to do both effectively. Roost played well can aid mence, but it loses to scarfed flygon (even after DD, it's a speed tie, Flygon can kill with Outrage). And don't BS me, 'what if I predict this!, what if I predict that!'. You obviously can't come up with a better argument.
 
Lucario's Close Combat also cripples many Pokemon. But it has to be careful when it uses it, much like Salamence's case with Draco Meteor. It can't simply fire those off every turn and expect to get anywhere.
 
yeah okay if you're going to just pretend that salamence always knows exactly what's switching in, and that he can always afford to use Draco Meteor rather than going straight for the kill even against things that will kill/threaten him if they don't switch out, and that even if he doesn't know what's switching in he'll pick the right attack anyway, and that "if you know exactly what your opponent has left then you can just use DM" is a good argument for anything, and that "if you've got a Spinner and Salamence has Roost or you've got a Wisher then he's dangerous" is a good argument for anything, and that Draco Meteor never misses, then yes Salamence is Uber.

and so is damn near everything else.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Mence always knows exactly what's switching in. I said Draco Meteor because of the high damage output, decent enough for scouting, albeit not perfect. Still, decent attack to fire off the bat. I never said that DM never misses. Also, the Spinner/Roost/Wisher example? That was a situation that isn't too unlikely. The pokemon are not dedicated to support Mence, they help the whole team. So this isn't an example of 3 mons solely for Mence to sweep (Plus Mence).
+------------+--------------+------------------+---------+
| Salamence | Usage | 205028 | 20.9 |
| Salamence | Ability | Intimidate | 100.0 |
| Salamence | Item | Life Orb | 67.0 |
| Salamence | Item | Leftovers | 11.5 |
| Salamence | Item | Other (6) | < 5.4 |
| Salamence | Nature | Naive | 43.8 |
| Salamence | Nature | Jolly | 15.1 |
| Salamence | Nature | Adamant | 12.5 |
| Salamence | Nature | Naughty | 10.4 |
| Salamence | Nature | Other (6) | < 7.5 |
| Salamence | HP EV | None | 85.4 |
| Salamence | HP EV | Max | 5.8 |
| Salamence | HP EV | Other (3) | < 5.6 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Max | 30.4 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Very High (200+) | 21.0 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | None | 20.9 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Very Low (<50) | 19.6 |
| Salamence | Attack EV | Other (2) | < 6.3 |
| Salamence | Defense EV | None | 93.1 |
| Salamence | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 4.4 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | None | 37.9 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Very High (200+) | 21.1 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Very Low (<50) | 19.2 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Max | 17.7 |
| Salamence | SpAttack EV | Other (2) | < 2.7 |
| Salamence | SpDefense EV | None | 100.0 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Max | 74.3 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | High (150-200) | 10.9 |
| Salamence | Speed EV | Other (5) | < 4.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Earthquake | 80.0 |
| Salamence | Move | Outrage | 60.2 |
| Salamence | Move | Dragon Dance | 51.6 |
| Salamence | Move | Fire Blast | 46.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Draco Meteor | 42.1 |
| Salamence | Move | Roost | 25.5 |
| Salamence | Move | Flamethrower | 23.6 |
| Salamence | Move | Dragon Claw | 20.8 |
| Salamence | Move | Brick Break | 11.7 |
| Salamence | Move | Hydro Pump | 7.1 |
| Salamence | Move | Fire Fang | 5.6 |
| Salamence | Move | Stone Edge | 5.6 |
| Salamence | Move | Other (5) | < 4.4 |
+------------+--------------+------------------+---------+
| Salamence | Move | Roost | 25.5 |
So, not too unlikely. And, you can predict to some extent if you know some of your opponent's team. Like, use EQ because Heatran is likely, and the damage is high enough anyways. Roost is likely enough that it should not be ignored.

Also, please note that Mence is still a threat without as much support as I'm assuming possible. It is versatile enough and has high enough stats that a little switching isn't too bad for it.
 
Terrible comparison. Luke's Close Combat has common Pokemon immune to it (Rotom, Gengar) and Pokemon who resist it that have instant recovery and can threaten Lucario immediately (Gliscor, Zapdos). Nothing with instant recovery can safely switch into Draco Meteor (Skarmory takes ~60%) while threatening Salamence back immediately.
 
When determining what can switch into Salamence, and how easily Salamence can switch in and out, people are making two assumptions. 1) That Salamence is holding Life Orb; and 2) That Stealth Rock is up on both players' sides of the field. However, these assumptions are not always true, and this makes Salamence significantly more difficult to counter.

While Salamence's most commonly used sets, Dragon Dance and Mix, both use Life Orb, Salamence can also use Choice or Leftovers sets. These are not just rare gimmicks; they are actually fairly common. Look at the item stats for Salamence from April:
Code:
| Salamence  | Item         | Life Orb         |    67.0 |
| Salamence  | Item         | Leftovers        |    11.5 |
| Salamence  | Item         | Other (6)        | <   5.4 |
Life Orb was used even less in May:
Code:
| Salamence  | Item         | Life Orb         |    64.6 |
| Salamence  | Item         | Leftovers        |    11.9 |
| Salamence  | Item         | Other (6)        | <   7.2 |
This shows that Salamence has more unpredictability than most posters in this thread think. One aspect of Salamence that is generally agreed upon is that once one knows its set, it can be countered, but that scouting its moveset is problematic. The possibility of Salamence holding something other that Life Orb significantly complicates this, since some of the checks to Salamence's LO sets fail to check sets with other items. For example, Choice Band Scizor can be setup fodder for Bulky Leftovers Mence. Similarly, the Pokemon that would outspeed a seemingly unboosted Mence might be outsped and 2HKOed by Scarfmence. But where alternate items have the biggest impact is in terms of passive damage. One argument against Salamence becoming Uber, that it takes 35% of its damage every time the Salamence user switches in Salamence and attacks. But for non-Life Orb forms of Salamence, this could be only 25%, or even 19%. This increases the number of times the Salamence user can switch in and get forced out.

But, you might think, wouldn't a Leftovers set instantly be revealed due to Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers recovery? This makes a second assumption, that the opponent has used Stealth Rock at all. As team support for Salamence and other Rock-weak sweepers such as Gyarados and Dragonite, players using offensive teams often lead with Stealth Rock-preventing leads like Azelf or Aerodactyl, both of which are highly likely to prevent the opponent from using Stealth Rock. This makes it so Stealth Rock is not always common when offensive teams use Salamence. Preventing SR this way doesn't get in trouble with the "with little support" phrase of the Uber characteristics, since it only requires the use of one support Pokemon and can benefit sweepers other than Salamence. This means that the Salamence user doesn't have to use a Pokemon solely to let Salamence sweep, so Salamence is still sweeping or "wallbreaking with little support."

In conclusion, when determining what can counter or check Salamence, don't assume that Salamence always holds Life Orb, or Stealth Rock is always up on the Salamence user's side of the field. Sometimes these are not true, and this complicates the job of preparing ones team for Salamence.
 
Don't put words in my mouth.

That would be for less bright players. Just Draco Meteor and switch as necessary.

No, I'm fairly sure that Draco Meteor (or Fire Blast if you're reasonably sure of what will happen) will take down a lot of stuff to the point where they can be finished. So, should I switch to Scizor, predicting DM or DD? Or, should I switch to ScarfTran predicting a Fire Blast? Or something like that.

It is always better than Fire Blast, barring you knowing Fire Resists are gone, and Fire weaks being present

Roost on Mence, or a Wish Passer, or a Rapid Spinner would let Mence do that even more.

etc etc

if you don't like your awful arguments being paraded around like dirty laundry then don't make them in the first place. at least don't pretend that you never made them.
 
Just to point out, all sweepers are meant to get a kill per game, and revenge killers are meant to kill those sweepers. Salamence can prove to be both a sweeper and a revenge killer, making it so good. However, SR damage and life orb recoil (Mixmence) limit it's ability to do both effectively. Roost played well can aid mence, but it loses to scarfed flygon (even after DD, it's a speed tie, Flygon can kill with Outrage). And don't BS me, 'what if I predict this!, what if I predict that!'. You obviously can't come up with a better argument.

So if my Lead Azelf explodes on something and kills it, is it considered a sweeper, too? Just curious as to why you said that sweepers are meant to get a kill, when practically, almost anything can get a kill. Sweepers are supposed to clean up after other mates have fulfilled their roles, opening up a hole for the sweeper to "clean up" effectively (hence the term "sweeper").
 
Sweepers are meant to get a kill, because that's what sweepers do. The general argument I see for Mence is that it gets (at least) one kill per game, does that make mence a revenge kller?
 
Basically we agree salamence in this current metagame is broken until some genius finds a moveset to counter it effectively (most variants) which isnt really gonna happen. So...

Bye Mence



LOL it's not a revenge killer .... its a check? And names... hmm QUOTE 'What the hell are you talking about? Sacing a second Pokemon to Salamence? That really fixes things.' lol sorry if the implication wasn't to make me look stupid what was it?
If you're sacing a Pokemon to bring Bronzong in without risking taking 65.7%-77.5% from a +0 Fire Blast, you are revenge killing it. That's the definition of revenge killing. All you're saying is, "Bronzong can force a -2 SpA Salamence with 65% of its HP left to switch out." No shit. I already agreed that Gyro Ball Bronzong is a decent check to Salamence, as it can do 51.1%-60.1% with Gyro Ball and take a hit as long as it doesn't switch in on a Fire Blast.
 
etc etc

if you don't like your awful arguments being paraded around like dirty laundry then don't make them in the first place. at least don't pretend that you never made them.
Again, don't put words in my mouth. Where did I pretend never to have made any arguments? I admitted that they might have needed a little revision, thought not directly.

As for "awful"? Dude, don't insult me. Draco Meteor better than FB? Well, look at the damage: STAB DM has 210. SE FB has 240, but misses more. Also, DM hits more for neutral, and coming off of Mence's stats? Powerful.

Roost/Wish Passer/Spinner? Those were examples that weren't too unlikely. Not guaranteed by any means, but smarter players might use those. And Roost is viable, likely enough, and able to really reduce the damage from switching. I've used Roost on Flying types that switch, and it really helps.

The prediction thing with DM or FB, what to switch in? That is to show how unpredictable Mence is. You need to predict very well not to be destroyed. Predict right, Mence switches (or lets you get the KO to switch a sweeper in to set up, etc.) so you can try to predict again. Predict wrong, you die anyway.

"Less bright players" - as in, for Mence not getting a kill. Of course, I'd take reducing most opponents by a lot to be usually better than not getting a kill.
 
Stop comparing other sweepers / stallbreakers to Mence; if you're experienced on ladder, you should know that none of the pokemon that people are currently comparing to it (i.e. Lucario, Gengar, and Infernape) can operate nearly as effectively as Mence can. "if Mence gets kicked then Lucario, Infernape, etc. must also be Uber because they are just like him." No.

Draco Meteor is a 140 power STAB attack that becomes 210 power with STAB, and is further boosted to 273 base power with a Life Orb. The distinguishing factor is that the Dragon type is resisted by a whopping ONE type. People keep bringing up that "oh, Infernape is more unpredictable and better, because he's got Overheat which is just like DM and he has a better movepool on both sides to back him up" Well, guess what, the fire type is resisted by four types, and of course the ever-popular Heatran. Not only that, Dragon/Flying is far superior to Fire/Fighting in terms of getting Salamence in, either on a resisted physical hit (further weakened by Intimidate) or of course on an incoming EQ/Earth Power. On the other hand, Infernape doesn't enjoy coming in on even resisted attacks due to inferior defenses and no immunities. Then we get to Lucario. Someone made a post not long ago that Close Combat was just as good as DM - you've got to be kidding me. What team ISN'T carrying our resident ghost friends Rotom-H or Gengar these days? Not only that, using a CC is perfect opportunity, ironically, for opposing Salamence or Gyarados to set up. And someone else mentioned that Gengar was more versatile than Mence, which is completely flawed. Since when does Gengar have a good physical attack stat and movepool as well as special ones? All it ever carries on the physical side is Explosion (rarely, as most variants I see on ladder are SubPainSplit) or the extremely rare Focus Punch, just for Blissey. In addition, its STAB Shadow Ball has barely half the power of a DM and its secondary attack, Focus Blast, will hit twice in a row less than half the time.

Next is the issue of SR - everyone seems to be assuming that SR is up 100% of the time with Sandstorm, and all the anti-ban proponents, or close to all of them, argue that Mence coming in, firing DM, and getting out is not reliable because it will take over 40% damage every time it does this. Honestly, many of the teams that carry MixMence that I've played will either carry Rapid Spin, or have a fast Taunting lead (Azelf anyone?) which more often than not results in no entry hazards getting set up / entry hazards getting spun away later. Once that opposing ghost is down, the Spin comes out, clearing the way for Salamence to fire Draco Meteors with limited repercussions.

If I were to vote for Mence becoming Uber, I would definitely attribute it to the Support Characteristic, as many people have said before. At this point, I'm not fully decided - I'm just pointing out why you can't compare these other pokemon to the sheer power and coverage of a Salamence. If there are no rocks up, or they have been spun away, nothing really scares Mence from coming in on something it can scare out, and just blasting the switch with a DM, then getting back out, and eventually allow for a late-game sweep by another pokemon like Gyarados.
 
Just mentioning that a Salamence Draco Meteor + Outrage does a maximum 92% damage to a Bold 252 / 252 Cresselia, meaning it has a very slim chance to 2HKO in sandstorm.. if not, it will NEVER 2HKO thanks to Cressy's Leftovers. Meanwhile Cressy can Rest / Moonlight, etc. and Salamence is locked into Outrage with -2 Special Attack.

What about the DDer?

a +0 LO Outrage does 43% Maximum to 252 / 252 Cresselia, which never 2HKOs thanks to leftovers. If I switch Cress in on Dragon Dance you do a maximum of 65% damage and once again, you lose to Ice Beam.

Therefore, a standard Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Cresselia with Ice Beam / Moonlight or Rest is NEVER 2HKOed by Dragon Dance or Mixmence and will threaten a KO with Ice Beam provided Stealth Rock is on the field. I believe that is the definition of a counter. Have a nice day.

Oh and before you people try to dispute this, run the calcs yourself. Numbers don't lie. The main reason why Salamence wasn't even considered remotely Uber until this point was that back when Cresselia got usage she was listed as a surefire counter to Mence / Chomp...

If I were to vote for Mence becoming Uber, I would definitely attribute it to the Support Characteristic, as many people have said before. At this point, I'm not fully decided - I'm just pointing out why you can't compare these other pokemon to the sheer power and coverage of a Salamence. If there are no rocks up, or they have been spun away, nothing really scares Mence from coming in on something it can scare out, and just blasting the switch with a DM, then getting back out, and eventually allow for a late-game sweep by another pokemon like Gyarados.

Also, Just want to say to the community the support characteristic is a horrible excuse for declaring something Uber. I know it was meant for Wobbeffet who deserved it, but now people say "you can't defend Suspect A from taking down this pokemons counter, there for it is uber under support characteristic" which is absolute bullshit. People need to stop throwing this around and realize what the difference between the support characteristic and a lure are...
 
Frankly, I would like to know why everyone is singling out Salamence when there is a whole slew of wrecking balls in the OU metagame with more control over what they can kill. In fact, let's look at them.

Infernape can arguably be even more unpredictable than Salamence. We at least know that Salamence most likely has Outrage, Earthquake, and Fire Blast. Meanwhile, Infernape can run just about any set and still remain viable. Only lead sets are easy to figure out.

Gengar is nothing to scoff at either. Those immunities he has take him a long way. In addition, the move Substitute just opens up holes on the opposing team. A moveset of Substitute, Shadow Ball, HP Fire, and Focus Punch is very dangerous. This is more responsible for destroying my core than Salamence could ever dream of achieving.

Tyranitar may be known for running Scarf at the moment, but I doubt that will last since Latias is know banned. People will soon go back to giving it Bands, LO, and Barbiri berries. Though Tyranitar may be slow, it wrecks many walls just fine. In fact, it has moves such as Fire Blast and Ice Beam for baiting purposes. Tyranitar can be an unpredictable threat.

I just listed three wall breakers that have more control (Infernape is iffy) in what they can kill than what MixMence can kill. Salamence can only kill off what the opponent chooses to be dead/weakened. So why is Salamence getting all the special treatment?
 
Because Salamence is the next target and takes the least amount of skill to use. You can get a kill with Salamence by getting him in and pressing Draco Meteor, which leads a lot of people to believe hes Uber. However, you can do the same thing with other pokemon, like Dragonite using Draco Meteor...
 
@RaikouLover, Cresselia running such a defensive set is most certainly a counter, but tell me, is it viable? I mean considering all the Scizor's out there, and Tyranitar's sandstream screws over moonlight, and can threaten with Pursuit. Cresselia is no longer viable IMO, it gets destroyed by the TOP 2 pokemon in OU..
 
Frankly, I would like to know why everyone is singling out Salamence when there is a whole slew of wrecking balls in the OU metagame with more control over what they can kill. In fact, let's look at them.

Infernape can arguably be even more unpredictable than Salamence. We at least know that Salamence most likely has Outrage, Earthquake, and Fire Blast. Meanwhile, Infernape can run just about any set and still remain viable. Only lead sets are easy to figure out.

Gengar is nothing to scoff at either. Those immunities he has take him a long way. In addition, the move Substitute just opens up holes on the opposing team. A moveset of Substitute, Shadow Ball, HP Fire, and Focus Punch is very dangerous. This is more responsible for destroying my core than Salamence could ever dream of achieving.

Tyranitar may be known for running Scarf at the moment, but I doubt that will last since Latias is know banned. People will soon go back to giving it Bands, LO, and Barbiri berries. Though Tyranitar may be slow, it wrecks many walls just fine. In fact, it has moves such as Fire Blast and Ice Beam for baiting purposes. Tyranitar can be an unpredictable threat.

I just listed three wall breakers that have more control (Infernape is iffy) in what they can kill than what MixMence can kill. Salamence can only kill off what the opponent chooses to be dead/weakened. So why is Salamence getting all the special treatment?

Two. Posts. Up. Not one of those Pokemon are as dangerous as Salamence.

@RaikouLover, we know Cress counters Salamence. Problem is, Cresselia is countered by the two most used Pokemon in OU: Scizor and Tyranitar. Cresselia can force Salamence out, but it'll get Pursuited to death if it doesn't switch. And their usage would be lower if Salamence weren't such a huge focus of the metagame, so don't anyone get started on why they should be banned.
 
Apparently a lot of people don't know Cress counters Salamence, because the last 34 pages are "what counters Salamence????!!!" I'm just listing an alternative. You can't say Salamence has no counters and then dispute one of its counters saying that its counter sucks
 
As for "awful"? Dude, don't insult me. Draco Meteor better than FB? Well, look at the damage: STAB DM has 210. SE FB has 240, but misses more. Also, DM hits more for neutral, and coming off of Mence's stats? Powerful.

You're pretty much just backpedalling everywhere at the moment, but this right here is kind of why your arguments suck: If you think DM is always the better move just because of its higher base power then I don't think you really know anything about Pokemon.
 
Lol, funny timing for my post with a mention of Ape and Gengar so soon.

Gengar and Tyranitar can't be used as "wrecking balls". First off, both suffer from not having a STAB attack nearly as powerful as DM (Gengar with 80 BP Shadow Ball, TTar with 80 BP Crunch / 100 BP SE) Secondly, all three pokemon you just mention can't really get past the most common bulky waters. For instance, Vaporeon and Tentacruel don't really care much about what Infernape uses, and as soon as it attacks, finding out what it's running is that much easier. Gengar's sole STAB move is comparatively weak, and it's easily picked off with Pursuit (in addition to having a much harder time coming in on anything that it isn't immune to) and having to set up a Sub before indiscriminately firing off attacks deters it from being the immediate threat that Salamence is. And finally, as for Tyranitar, there are a lot of things between 61 Base Speed and 100 Base Speed that fear Salamence but would laugh at a T-Tar switch. A Tyranitar isn't going to be scaring away something like Lucario. And finally, SE + Crunch doesn't have the best coverage; bulky waters like Swampert can switch in without fearing much of anything. Tyranitar's 95 Base SpA and 61 Base Speed mean that it's sacrificing a lot of power if it wants to run mixed sets while still outspeeding Scizor.

@ RaikouLover, Cress does counter Salamence, given. But for it to get that guaranteed KO, Mence has to be Outraging or else it'll just switch into a Pursuit user who doesn't really fear the weak Ice Beam (Tyranitar or Scizor aren't really threatened by Cress)
 
RaikouLover said:
Because Salamence is the next target and takes the least amount of skill to use. You can get a kill with Salamence by getting him in and pressing Draco Meteor, which leads a lot of people to believe hes Uber. However, you can do the same thing with other pokemon, like Dragonite using Draco Meteor...
I understand that, but I don't understand why people don't understand why an easy kill doesn't equal a good kill. Good teams are supposed to function even if some of its pokemon were to die. This is the reason why you see no one running Baton Pass teams.

Efemera said:
Two. Posts. Up. Not one of those Pokemon are as dangerous as Salamence.
So, what's your reasoning for this. I just gave you reasons for why Salamence isn't so threatening compared with other wall breakers. It may not have been in depth like some of the other posters, but I demand that someone give me a better explained argument when I went out of the way to explain my reasoning. It's just common courtesy in debates.

TehYoshi said:
Lol, funny timing for my post with a mention of Ape and Gengar so soon.

Gengar and Tyranitar can't be used as "wrecking balls". First off, both suffer from not having a STAB attack nearly as powerful as DM (Gengar with 80 BP Shadow Ball, TTar with 80 BP Crunch / 100 BP SE) Secondly, all three pokemon you just mention can't really get past the most common bulky waters. For instance, Vaporeon and Tentacruel don't really care much about what Infernape uses, and as soon as it attacks, finding out what it's running is that much easier. Gengar's sole STAB move is comparatively weak, and it's easily picked off with Pursuit (in addition to having a much harder time coming in on anything that it isn't immune to) and having to set up a Sub before indiscriminately firing off attacks deters it from being the immediate threat that Salamence is. And finally, as for Tyranitar, there are a lot of things between 61 Base Speed and 100 Base Speed that fear Salamence but would laugh at a T-Tar switch. A Tyranitar isn't going to be scaring away something like Lucario. And finally, SE + Crunch doesn't have the best coverage; bulky waters like Swampert can switch in without fearing much of anything. Tyranitar's 95 Base SpA and 61 Base Speed mean that it's sacrificing a lot of power if it wants to run mixed sets while still outspeeding Scizor.
Frankly, who needs strong STAB if you're going to get in free hits due to Substitute or baiting these "counters". As for your Tyranitar argument, who needs speed when you have bulk and versatility. Tyranitar isn't something to scoff at just because of low speed. He has the movepool to dent many pokemon. In fact, baiting works really well with him. BarbiriTar may be the most famous one at the moment, but it's hardly the only he's capable of. In addition, only Tyranitar is checked by bulky waters. Gengar still has Explosion to deal with them; though, Gengar doesn't really run Explosion and Substitute on the same set.
 
You're pretty much just backpedalling everywhere at the moment, but this right here is kind of why your arguments suck: If you think DM is always the better move just because of its higher base power then I don't think you really know anything about Pokemon.
I peaked at 1420 on the OU ladder a while back. And you?

Anyways, "backpedalling"? Um, no. Also, DM has much fewer mons resist it than FB. Did I say always? Look at my earlier posts. I said that there were exceptions (no Heatran/Fire Resists, and Fire weaks present). However, on average, DM is better, assuming Scizor is down/not there/weak/you don't care because you have Magnezore or some trapper. Scizor is one of the exceptions that I just forgot to mention. Basically, DM and FB are the best two, and I was giving my opinion, with support, that DM is better.

EDIT: anyways, I fear this is starting to derail a bit. To prevent us from derailing this discussion, I'm not going to respond to you again.
 
Apparently a lot of people don't know Cress counters Salamence, because the last 34 pages are "what counters Salamence????!!!" I'm just listing an alternative. You can't say Salamence has no counters and then dispute one of its counters saying that its counter sucks

I think we were after viable counters...no?
And Cresselia DOES SUCK thanks to the TOP 2 POKEMON, SCIZOR AND TYRANITAR ABSOLUTELY DESTROYING IT.
 
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