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Pokemon Black & White, aka Gen 5. Coming to Japan in Fall 2010.
- Thread starter Firestorm
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@Sandstreamer: It tells us weather starters are good (kinda ironic given your username). Seriously, you think Yomamsnow would get anywhere if it had Snow Cloak? SR weak, x4 fire weak, only good for soaking up Water attacks and Ice Shard revenging, the latter of which Mamo or Weavile do better. Not to say it'd be completely useless ofcourse, just that is survives in OU ONLY because it starts Hail.
That's like saying Ash is going to be Dark-type now.
And your talk about Grass/Dark reminded me of Cacturne and the fact it's such a badass pokémon doomed to the depths of NU/UU. Damnit.
Ok, so you are trying to say Smogon should have Shaymin and Celebi Uber and Abomasnow on OU based by "strength"? That's what I'm feeling here and I hope I'm wrong, otherwise you're just proving my point.
Yeah I actually used Cacturne the first time i ever played Gen3 because it was such a good concept and even in-game it was so terrible. I ditched it after Needle Arm failed to do appreciable damage to a water type (I think it was a slowbro). But anyway, regarding it just being a dark typed sceptile, that would probably be better than it being a poison-typed sceptile, especially since the majority of Dark types get Nasty Plot, and a sceptile clone with Nasty Plot and STAB Dark Pulse would be an amazing sweeper.
Never thought about it, but seems entirely plausible. The typing actually has a good set of resistances, although it's nothing spectacular.
I was agreeing with what you had to say, but then stopped reading at this point... Rock is, in my opinion, the 2nd worst defensive typing (after Ice, of course). Resists Fire, Poison, Flying, and Normal... only Fire is ever used competitively. 5 weaknesses, to the omnipresent Water and Ground attacks, very common Fighting and Steel, and occasional Grass attack.
It does have great offensive coverage, but gaining STAB on Rock moves is, like Ice, not worth the cost.
I loved Cacturne in NU until Primape, it is really powerful, but is slow has fuck. 55 base speed FTL
EDIT @ blasphemy Sub angerpoint Primape (the earlier versions that everyone thought were cool but sucked) was a bitch. And even for the CS versions the Ko wasn't assured.
EDIT @ blasphemy Sub angerpoint Primape (the earlier versions that everyone thought were cool but sucked) was a bitch. And even for the CS versions the Ko wasn't assured.
Abomosnow isn't OU btw, Roserade and Celebi would also like to say something. Mamoswine really isn't that good, especially since ~30% of teams run Scizor or switch in any of the numerous Ground immunities, and even though Ice shard has great coverage with Ground attacks, its only 40 BP and isn't boosted and Choice Banded Ice types really Suck in OU. Weaviles uses are to kill Dragon Types that will just switch to a resist and laugh at your base 75 attacks.
We can't tell what color Tsutarja's evo is because Tsutarja isn't colored for comparison, and everything else that's colored on there is also really dark.
However, Grass/Dark doesn't seem too hard to imagine for Tsutarja.
Grass/Poison means it can be one of the most effective SubSeeders, more effective than Sceptile, in fact, because of Sludge Bomb hitting other Grass-types hard. Sludge Bomb is far from worthless, as other than steel and poison it helps give it neutral coverage (hits Bug, Dragon, Fire, and Flying neutrally while hitting grass super effectively). Grass/Dark wouldn't be too bad, either, and would probably help it succeed (it could easily trap stuff with Pursuit, and whatever Grass Mixer does), but I don't think Grass/Poison is nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Hell, just about any type pairs up with grass pretty well.
@ xdevo13: What are you worrying about Primeape for? You OHKO with a +2 LO Sucker Punch (unless U-turn has mechanics that get past it, in which case I'm a moron).
I couldn't really follow the post after this :P I personally think that literally no tiering system in any video game is perfect but I couldn't come up with a better method than Smogon's. What would your proposed method be? Votes?
Your vote is putting the Pokemon on your team and using it in a battle...
That's what I mean. I seriously can't think of another way to tier something, so why is Sandstreamer criticizing it?
Funnily enough, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm curious. It just makes sense to me that Pokemon that match the uber "definitions" are uber, the ones that are mostly used are "overused", the ones that aren't used as much are "underused", and the rest, which are never used, are aptly named "neverused".
I agree, people criticize smogon's tiers, but just about any respectable community follows them because they are logical. Usage tiers + ban tiers with suspect tests to verify the uber qualities of a Pokemon.
Anyway, I'm starting to think more and more Tsutaja may evolve into a Grass/Steel. I mean, its evolutions back has a lot of sharp leaves, which could translate into blades.
-Sigh- Tsutarja is definitely fascinating. Its evolutionary line have a potential to be something great. Definitely not oh so predictable. It can be bipedal, quadrupedal or serpentine-like creature. Here's wishing GF wouldn't mess with this Smug guy and make it an awesome pokemon just like how it is awesome now.
o rly?
Don't trust your feelings, man. I'm just saying that you "see Grass types in OU" only because somebody on this site wanted them there, not because they are any good. Just like if Ho-oh was voted OU, you'd see a SUDDEN increase of Fire types in OU. (Note: This is an absurd comparison. I know about Ho-oh, ok?)Mario With Lasers said:
And I agree with you thus far. But basically, rock has two things going for it:Shroomisaur said:
1. Sandstorm. Receiving the SpDef boost really helps many Pokemon. It is actually more useful than type resistances as it helps you against ALL special sweepers.
2. Rock is quite well "adjusted". Special Ground and Fighting is a non-issue (not to talk about special steel). So basically, you're weak against standard-coverage physical sweepers and Water pokemon. While this really is much, you'd be at this point even if you remove 2 of 5 weaknesses.
That said, pure rock really isn't that great, but it makes rock a good combination type. Water/Rock for example is not that bad a typing, making you stand a chance against Water and STAB Ground (by hitting first lol). Aerodactyl actually gets quite a good typing. So does Cradily. My point is, that secondary typings can more easily eliminate a whole group of weaknesses.
Yeah, I forgot Roserade. And I already talked to Celebi. lol Also, I don't know what you want to say about Mamoswine.... That's not new.xdevo13 said:
EDIT:
There also is basically no need to tier something at all. For 3 and a half (counting RS200 as a half) generations Nintendo had an obvious banlist and that was it. (Yeah, the names of the tiers were coined from the very beginning, but they were just abbreviations for the the actual word with its actual meaning. Smogon just took them for naming its ruleset this way.)
Frosslass??
Well, I just always thought as tiers as guidelines. They're not needed at all if you don't want them. I, and a lot of others feel, however, that most OU-caliber pokemon are possibly better than UU-or-NU-caliber pokemon; therefore, we use them on our teams to maximize potential for victory.
Lucalibur kindly corrected my oversight 2-3 pages ago.
Fire-types would be useless against Ho-oh, at best you'd see a spike in Heatran usage (unless you want to try to wall Ho-oh with lol Ninetales). And the current OU Grass-types are at 18th, 24th and 44th, while the two Ice-types we have are at 36th and 40th. It's not because "someone wanted it like this", but because... they're more used than the Ice-types. I mean, were the threshold higher, there would not even be any Ice-types in OU, just to show how poorly they are used.
And that's without even taking weighted statistics into account (of course, we don't have them...). I'm sure Roserade is MUCH higher on them with Weavile and Mamoswine being lower, just like it was back in Shoddy Official's Server.
Really now? The "obvious banlist" isn't well-designed. Jirachi gets banned because it's an event Pokemon and Garchomp is allowed. You really think an arbitrary banlist by Nintendo beats one tested by thousands of people battling all the time?
The tiers below OU exist for organization purposes, and so that you can play competitively with weaker Pokemon. How is that bad?
Anyway, Grass is a much better type than Ice. It resists both Water and Ground, the two most commonly used offensive types in the game, as well as Electric (and itself). Grass is mostly hampered by the fact that both Dragon and Steel resist it. Down in UU, Grass is very powerful offensively. Ice is just a terrible type. Most Water types learn Ice Beam, and Ice STAB isn't usually worth the huge number of weaknesses that come with Ice.
Actually, Rock is not that great defensively. It only resists Normal, Flying, Poison, and Fire, with Fire resist being the only really useful one.
So? That means absolutely nothing. Simply saying "We've never had one" would have been a stronger argument.
Next person to use the Roost argument is getting locked in a cage with with a paraflinch Jirachi holding a King's Rock.
The reason Celebi is OU and Abomasnow isn't.
Because a bunch of people wanted to use Celebi but not Abomasnow. Not because ""somebody wanted them there." Celebi may also have seven weaknesses, but it has much better stats, complements Heatran perfectly, has a better movepool, and it's versatile. And it's fast. Abomasnow does not have good stats, it does not complement another OU perfectly, it tends to have a poorer, outclassed movepool, and it is not versatile. To top this all off...outside of Ice Shard (Weavile and Mamo pull this off better anyway,) it is slow. Hail is the only thing he's got.
Because a bunch of people wanted to use Celebi but not Abomasnow. Not because ""somebody wanted them there." Celebi may also have seven weaknesses, but it has much better stats, complements Heatran perfectly, has a better movepool, and it's versatile. And it's fast. Abomasnow does not have good stats, it does not complement another OU perfectly, it tends to have a poorer, outclassed movepool, and it is not versatile. To top this all off...outside of Ice Shard (Weavile and Mamo pull this off better anyway,) it is slow. Hail is the only thing he's got.
On the Roost debate....I figure a pure flying type means that it can't roost i.e. an albatross: it never lands according to mythology, so therefore it doesn't roost. All the normal flying types can roost because by the looks of them, it's totally possible.
It's possible to give another recovery move to the potential pure flying, too.
It's possible to give another recovery move to the potential pure flying, too.
Fire priority wouldn't be bad against Scizor, either.
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