I disagree with some of these statements because for one once you know what the set is your either A. About to eat a basically +2 outrage/earthquake that 2hkos everything in the metagame besides obvious scarm ,fortress i think (dont feel like doing calcs), or a Draco meteor thats arguable very very very close to latias specs draco meteor. And then eat another one of his moves if he feels like it and if you dont have SR up your fucked and you should just quit the game.(an exaggeration). Using things like hippowdon and blissey just to counter a top threat is not cool. Breloom loves to step in and fuck blissey's mom. Once your created "hard counter" is shown a "hard counter" to your "hard counter" is going to eat you alive for example Hippo to breloom.
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Salamence is Uber.
- Thread starter Curtains
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I disagree with some of these statements because for one once you know what the set is your either A. About to eat a basically +2 outrage/earthquake that 2hkos everything in the metagame besides obvious scarm ,fortress i think (dont feel like doing calcs), or a Draco meteor thats arguable very very very close to latias specs draco meteor. And then eat another one of his moves if he feels like it and if you dont have SR up your fucked and you should just quit the game.(an exaggeration). Using things like hippowdon and blissey just to counter a top threat is not cool. Breloom loves to step in and fuck blissey's mom. Once your created "hard counter" is shown a "hard counter" to your "hard counter" is going to eat you alive for example Hippo to breloom.
^ What language are you speaking.
Don't you mean...
Base 100 speed in OU's current state is average. Maybe slightly above average, but have you forgotten about Infernape? Starmie? Jolteon? Lots of things are faster. Garchomp was annoying, cuz 102 speed, lol.
Base 110 Special Attack is... Good! But it's nothing gamebreaking. Why, Heatran has base 130 special attack, Machamp has base 130 attack, etc.
And when did I mention Cress =_=
@Curtains: Wait... A +2 Outrage? I dare you to find a team in this game that will survive that. That's part of my reasons for saying Chomp deserved to get banned, so... Thanks for supporting my argument? And I'm not sure about the viability of Breloom and Salamence together, as Starmie says hello. You invented a perfect partner for Salamence to take down my two example Pokemon that both get torn up with ease. And... It's a moot point, dude, because Breloom has no hard counter because they have to deal with the Sub and the Spore. Every team has a Breloom weakness, it depends on how they play against it.
Don't you mean...
corrections said:
Base 100 speed in OU's current state is average. Maybe slightly above average, but have you forgotten about Infernape? Starmie? Jolteon? Lots of things are faster. Garchomp was annoying, cuz 102 speed, lol.
Base 110 Special Attack is... Good! But it's nothing gamebreaking. Why, Heatran has base 130 special attack, Machamp has base 130 attack, etc.
And when did I mention Cress =_=
@Curtains: Wait... A +2 Outrage? I dare you to find a team in this game that will survive that. That's part of my reasons for saying Chomp deserved to get banned, so... Thanks for supporting my argument? And I'm not sure about the viability of Breloom and Salamence together, as Starmie says hello. You invented a perfect partner for Salamence to take down my two example Pokemon that both get torn up with ease. And... It's a moot point, dude, because Breloom has no hard counter because they have to deal with the Sub and the Spore. Every team has a Breloom weakness, it depends on how they play against it.
this sucks. i will have to remove hp ice off three pokes :(
or will I? real talk- celebi usage should go up. shaymin as well, but most dangerous is the drastic increase that breloom will see.
I also foresee mixnape usage soaring, as a check to the grass poke increase.
breloom for next suspect.
or will I? real talk- celebi usage should go up. shaymin as well, but most dangerous is the drastic increase that breloom will see.
I also foresee mixnape usage soaring, as a check to the grass poke increase.
breloom for next suspect.
i mean heracros is not broken if sala is broken since heracros has a big enemy known as gliscor and his lovely sandstorm
ok then salamence has 1 reason for banning then
because gen 5 is coming
its logical (for me so its a highly personal opinion) to remove top threats
and test the metagame then test them again after gen 5 so the gen 5 metagame become much more easy to manage
Yes, we all know you have a hard-on for Salamence.
No, this does not matter. Salamence is Uber. That's all there is to it. If I understand the OP, the main purpose of this thread is not a discussion of why or why not Salamence should be Uber. That thread had its time and made its mess.
There's no reason for this thread to go as poorly as the last Salamence discussion thread did with this constant back-and-forth that, at this point, is worth absolutely nothing.
While Ice Shard usually OHKOs Mence, Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch in on any of Salamences attacks, which means they are not counters, but revenge killers.
I'm not saying your points are invalid (I would like to know that Hippowdon Mence-countering spread, if you know it), but that they are useless at this point. You can't make Salamence OU again. There's no reason to discuss this again and ruin a perfectly decent thread.
Have a nice day. :)
@Tubaking: What, you have a hard-on for a pudgy orange dragon that evolves from a blue worm?
This thread is inherently flawed anyways, since its Ubers performance counts nothing towards whether or not it was OU.
And most Pokemon don't have counters anymore, if you haven't noticed. Look at Lucario; Gliscor is no longer a counter but a check, because a predicted Ice Punch knocks it right out. Heracross has Stone Edge to deal with Gyara and Mence switch-ins (Scratch the last part) and Gyarados can use Bounce to at least partially cripple his switch-ins.
Of course I didn't say that they were counters; I didn't say them. I thought that everyone on Smogon knew that they were checks. Apparently you did not realize we all did.
I'm not saying that Mence should be... Yes, I'd like for Mence to be unbanned. But what I said at the beginning of this post made me think that this thread is already a mess as is.
This thread is inherently flawed anyways, since its Ubers performance counts nothing towards whether or not it was OU.
And most Pokemon don't have counters anymore, if you haven't noticed. Look at Lucario; Gliscor is no longer a counter but a check, because a predicted Ice Punch knocks it right out. Heracross has Stone Edge to deal with Gyara and Mence switch-ins (Scratch the last part) and Gyarados can use Bounce to at least partially cripple his switch-ins.
Of course I didn't say that they were counters; I didn't say them. I thought that everyone on Smogon knew that they were checks. Apparently you did not realize we all did.
I'm not saying that Mence should be... Yes, I'd like for Mence to be unbanned. But what I said at the beginning of this post made me think that this thread is already a mess as is.
Your argument is nonexistant. We don't hate dragons, it's just a coincidence that our suspects have been dragons as of late. We've had Manaphy and Shaymin-S suspects as well, don't think we're dracophbic here.
On topic, I'm personally glad that Mence is out of here, as it gives us a potentially whole new field to play with. I somehow see Scizor usage rising early, but taking a sudden drop afterwards now that its draconic buddy is no longer flapping around.
People (And me at the beginning) thought that stall would become dominant. It did not. Salamence wasn't THAT big of a stall-breaker, or at least, it couldn't just come in, say hi, and dominate a stall team. Stall has risen in usage, for sure, but, has not become as dominant as people thought it would become.
Why should I? It's not going to change anything now. There were two previous discussion topics and I gave my opinion in each and I don't feel the need to repeat myself. If there was a chance that Salamence could be unbanned given mine and other people's opinions, then obviously I would do so. I don't NEED to do anything.
Who said that was the main discussion point of this thread? It's just a general thread about Salamence and the metagame. Not just whether or not Mence was really Uber or OU.
The only thing going down imo are revenge killers to mence, especially jirachi with heatran going on the rise.
Every team has weaknesses, and almost all of the time those weaknesses are bigger than mence (especially if they have scizor), such as ddtar, curselax, breloom, gyarados, etc.. I personally am usually underwhelmed by mence because not only does he need magnezone support to sweep, but he needs someone to bait scizor to BP in the first place, and then a setup oppurtunity. That's way too much to be considered uber, when you got latias who can switch in on tons more pokes and garchomp who is so incredibly hard to kill.
I feel like the garchomp set was the minimum standard to what's OP in OU, and salamence doesn't even come close to it.
But whatever, he's not getting unbanned so I guess I"m gonna take a break from shoddy until gen 5 comes out.
Every team has weaknesses, and almost all of the time those weaknesses are bigger than mence (especially if they have scizor), such as ddtar, curselax, breloom, gyarados, etc.. I personally am usually underwhelmed by mence because not only does he need magnezone support to sweep, but he needs someone to bait scizor to BP in the first place, and then a setup oppurtunity. That's way too much to be considered uber, when you got latias who can switch in on tons more pokes and garchomp who is so incredibly hard to kill.
I feel like the garchomp set was the minimum standard to what's OP in OU, and salamence doesn't even come close to it.
But whatever, he's not getting unbanned so I guess I"m gonna take a break from shoddy until gen 5 comes out.
Well, for # 7, I really don't think there is any UU pokemon that deserve to go in OU, because the only dragon type is Altaria, and she doesn't have the good enough stats to be a sweeper. Maybe Leafeon MIGHT replace Salamence, because of its high attack and defence, or maybe azumarill with his regular choice band set.
My epiphany was Garchomp and I foresaw the other heads being chopped off.
The thing is, these are Pokemon I've never used but really enjoyed having around.
Now we're approaching a metagame that has none of the tension of Gamefreak's Pokemon.
The Smogon forums are nice but I've now accepted that I'll never see eye-to-eye with the majority on tiering matters.
The good news is that I'll probably be perfectly at home in Nintendo's own metagame once the random match and rating system for B&W goes live.
On the other hand, I'm certain a fair number of smogoners will be whining about it.
Anyway, since I've stopped playing shoddy, the decisions are no longer relevant to me and I've been entertained by the bannings.
In the interim I'm just waiting for who the next suddenly "broken" and overhyped bogeyman will be (I have some predictions to confirm).
Raverist, the questions are to the people that vote for ubers or not, its not for normal players...
Even so, if u want to uber all the dangerous pokemons, make Ninjask uber for a change, you all dont think, but because of pokemon like Ninjask or others that have Speed Boost Ability, that Salamence or Scizor or whatever are so strong, u only see them has dangerous and you dont think of the baton pass strategy, realy, i see most people use Baton Pass strategy with Ninjask, then use Salamence to clean, for example, if u want to make a sweeper uber, make Rampardos Uber too, mine has 448 of Attack, and with Swords Dance+Speed Boost+ Baton Pass strategy, he is completly unstopable, i have won battles 6-0 because of him
in resume, they should think of what makes pokemons like Salamence strong before making him uber
Even so, if u want to uber all the dangerous pokemons, make Ninjask uber for a change, you all dont think, but because of pokemon like Ninjask or others that have Speed Boost Ability, that Salamence or Scizor or whatever are so strong, u only see them has dangerous and you dont think of the baton pass strategy, realy, i see most people use Baton Pass strategy with Ninjask, then use Salamence to clean, for example, if u want to make a sweeper uber, make Rampardos Uber too, mine has 448 of Attack, and with Swords Dance+Speed Boost+ Baton Pass strategy, he is completly unstopable, i have won battles 6-0 because of him
in resume, they should think of what makes pokemons like Salamence strong before making him uber
I've never had much trouble with Mence on any of my teams, and I never have really prepared for him, but I guess I do usually focus on a Steel core. The times I've used him I wasn't happy with his performance, and I've tried most of his sets out. I can see why he was banned, but I don't really care.
If we do see more W/F/G cores I'll be disappointed, though... I hate Celebi and Breloom a lot.
If we do see more W/F/G cores I'll be disappointed, though... I hate Celebi and Breloom a lot.
Actually, those pokemon dont have enough speed to sweep, so... I would have to say Arcanine can really replace Salamence, because it can be Attack, Sp.Att, and mixed, plus a variety of moves to help him. He even has almost the same HP Base stat as Salamence for the bulky sets. One Max speed agility will outspeed Salamence, and a lot of other Pokemon.
Agility Lucario in itself is entirely counterable, but what makes it work is that most people assume that it is SD. If you send in your Gliscor against Lucario just for him to Agility, that is when you should send in your Hippowdon or Metagross to sponge what Luke throws at you and OHKO back with EQ. If all of your AgiliLuke counters are gone and a sweep is pulled-off, then the AgiliLuke team has done its job. This holds true for any team built around a sweeper.
No need to take offense. If my last post post upset you, I did not mean it to and for that I apologize. I am not questioning your competence in competitive Pokemon and certainly do not wish to start a flame-war.
If anything, I was trying to mitigate the potential flaming that would ensue by making this a discussion of why or why not Mence should be Uber.
My last post did not mention Dragonite whatsoever, so I fail to understand why my thoughts on your post in question would lead you to bring him up at all.
I agree with you that Mence's performance in Ubers has nothing to do with his status in OU, but again, I do not beleive this thread is intended to question said status at all. Please take note,though, that I am not the OP and that it is for Curtains and the Smogon staff to better clarify the purpose of this thread if need be.
