I never said he was not a threat. He can be a good wallbreaker with prediction which does not merit a ban. I used mence well against stall because i could predict the switches and non-switches. When i was using stall i could easily force him out by switching in the pokemon that easily could take the attack. Blissey or ttzr on the dm or fb, skarm or forry on the outrage. I know how to predict. Its not just luck, its a skill. That's why i dont think mence should be banned, he's too reliant on prediction because if you dont predict right then your mence is gone because of ss, lo, sr. Prediction wins.
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Salamence is Uber.
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I never said he was not a threat. He can be a good wallbreaker with prediction which does not merit a ban. I used mence well against stall because i could predict the switches and non-switches. When i was using stall i could easily force him out by switching in the pokemon that easily could take the attack. Blissey or ttzr on the dm or fb, skarm or forry on the outrage. I know how to predict. Its not just luck, its a skill. That's why i dont think mence should be banned, he's too reliant on prediction because if you dont predict right then your mence is gone because of ss, lo, sr. Prediction wins.
It takes a while for people to catch on to a good set/Pokemon. You're right that Shaymin's rise is more due to Latias' ban than anything. Seed Flare/HP Ice/Earth Power/Filler is the best set, in my opinion.
Only answering a few.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
I think it will be both positive and negative. Positive because pokes that were always paired with mence. Negative because pokes like Jirachi will be now take the stage.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Jirachi, DNite, Possibly flygon.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I do not play ubers, so no comment.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No. Jirachi and Heatran should have been opened up as a choice first, as they both are frequently used and always stop any weather team.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
Personally, Salamence shouldn't have been banned. My main team was a HailStall and because of it, Salamence was easily 1HKO'd by any of my pokes.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
If you haven't noticed I've been hating on Jirachi yet, it's Jirachi. The self-healing, high base stats, and typing are frustrating to handle. I have never taken a Jirachi down in a short time because of its overall invincibility.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
I think it will be both positive and negative. Positive because pokes that were always paired with mence. Negative because pokes like Jirachi will be now take the stage.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Jirachi, DNite, Possibly flygon.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I do not play ubers, so no comment.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No. Jirachi and Heatran should have been opened up as a choice first, as they both are frequently used and always stop any weather team.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
Personally, Salamence shouldn't have been banned. My main team was a HailStall and because of it, Salamence was easily 1HKO'd by any of my pokes.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
If you haven't noticed I've been hating on Jirachi yet, it's Jirachi. The self-healing, high base stats, and typing are frustrating to handle. I have never taken a Jirachi down in a short time because of its overall invincibility.
You're saying that if we pretend you're the only one that knows how to predict, Salamence is not broken? Laughable. And for the record I did find it hilarious how many people switched their Scizor into Fire Blast.
Prediction is a fucking horrible argument for anything. If there's a good chance something is going to die when you switch it in, it's not a good check, much less a counter. Don't get me started on that bullshit about entry hazards.
And conversely, if you don't predict right and Mence Fire Blasts into your Skarmory, or EQs or Outrages into your Blissey, or some similar "oops", what do you do? lol. It works both ways.
Is jirachi not really used that much now? I would of thought that Scarfrachi would of been the end all/be all to covering all of your revenge killing needs (Iron Head -> DD Tyranitar, Ice Punch -> DD Dragonite, Thunderpunch -> DD Gyarados, Fire Punch -> Lucario/SD Scizor, Falcon Pawnch (IronHead + Hax) -> Everything else). With Salamence out of the way, Jirachi has pretty much every major stat-up sweeper undoubtably covered in four moves.
Personally, I've never liked Choice Scarf Jirachi. I've always felt that Jirachi has much better things to, like using Calm Mind, or Substitute. The fact that Jirachi only tied with +1 +Spe Salamence was a big turn-off for me, which is why I ended up using Choice Scarf Starmie as my Salamence-killer. Now, with Scarf Tyranitar finally starting to drop and plummet, I can fire off attacks without worrying that I'm about to get killed by a Tyranitar.
Sorry for being so off-topic. I know this topic is about Salamence, but I just wanted to say some things about Jirachi.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Well, I've seen a LOT more teams which stack rocks with some other form of hazards, in fact, I've seen a lot more Roserade and Forry/Froslass/Skarm leads, setting up spikes and TSpikes. Probobly because Mance isn't around, all of a sudden, rocks... are not as important anymore.
I've been seeing more Semi-stall teams [As in, teams which utilise SkarmBliss or a defensive core, with bulky offensive pokemon as clean-up duty]. There's also been a big drop in Scizor use.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No. With Latias gone, Stall's lost it's best check to Infernape. Infernape can single-handedly tear through stall [Unless it's running Tentacruel...]. Of course, if stall's played right, it can dominate, I mean, most top-of-the-ladder teams are stall, after all, and they always have been.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite. Need I say more?
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal? (after about post 270 the mod said you cant answer this question)
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Don't play Ubers.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor. Choice Scarf Jirachi. Porygon2
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Interesting question. Uxie may make the move up, as more people are running Uxie now. UU players may be angry at the mention of this, but now that 'Mance is gone, and F/W/G cores are building up, Shaymin may move up from BL, and Venasaur might garner enough useage as well. Of course, that's just speculation.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Well, it's a little late, but 'Mance has been borderline ever since Platinum, maybe before. Still, batter late than never.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I think this question should be 'Why is Salamance too powerful for OU?', as you're not moved to Ubers for being good there. Simple, when Mance comes in, against any team, it causes the panic button to be pressed. When a pokemon's counter is listed as 'Residual Damage' something which gets everything bar Clefable, you know it's time to pack your bags and go to Ubers, as no pokemon can handle you.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Breloom. If it switches in sucessfully, like Salamance, it'll cripple at least one pokemon, and probobly KO another. STAB Focus Punches from Base 130 attack destroy even resistant pokemon, and Seed Bomb's no joke either. Nor's SubSeeding when you get 12.5% recovery. I don't care that it's frail and hard to get in in the first place, bring it in on a resist, or a Steel/Wall, basically anything slower than it, and it's gonna cause havok. You can't even status it unless you catch it on the initial switch.
Against Breloom, you have to sacrifice something to the sleep, and then switch something in, break it's Sub [And take a Focus Punch while you're at it, while it goes back up to 100%], just to force it out.
Blissey. When was the last time you saw a Special Sweeper? Latias, who was Uber. If it takes an Uber special attacker to bypass Blissey, Blissey is walling a significant amount of the metagame. Blissey alone makes Special sweepers such as LO Alakazam, or Nasty Plot Azelf, unviable [Well, Scizor too, but, even before Scizor, Blissey stopped them dead]. If walling half the moves in the game isn't suspect under Defense, I don't know what is. Blissey is the sole reason why OU is so physically based.
Well, I've seen a LOT more teams which stack rocks with some other form of hazards, in fact, I've seen a lot more Roserade and Forry/Froslass/Skarm leads, setting up spikes and TSpikes. Probobly because Mance isn't around, all of a sudden, rocks... are not as important anymore.
I've been seeing more Semi-stall teams [As in, teams which utilise SkarmBliss or a defensive core, with bulky offensive pokemon as clean-up duty]. There's also been a big drop in Scizor use.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No. With Latias gone, Stall's lost it's best check to Infernape. Infernape can single-handedly tear through stall [Unless it's running Tentacruel...]. Of course, if stall's played right, it can dominate, I mean, most top-of-the-ladder teams are stall, after all, and they always have been.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite. Need I say more?
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal? (after about post 270 the mod said you cant answer this question)
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Don't play Ubers.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor. Choice Scarf Jirachi. Porygon2
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Interesting question. Uxie may make the move up, as more people are running Uxie now. UU players may be angry at the mention of this, but now that 'Mance is gone, and F/W/G cores are building up, Shaymin may move up from BL, and Venasaur might garner enough useage as well. Of course, that's just speculation.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Well, it's a little late, but 'Mance has been borderline ever since Platinum, maybe before. Still, batter late than never.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I think this question should be 'Why is Salamance too powerful for OU?', as you're not moved to Ubers for being good there. Simple, when Mance comes in, against any team, it causes the panic button to be pressed. When a pokemon's counter is listed as 'Residual Damage' something which gets everything bar Clefable, you know it's time to pack your bags and go to Ubers, as no pokemon can handle you.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Breloom. If it switches in sucessfully, like Salamance, it'll cripple at least one pokemon, and probobly KO another. STAB Focus Punches from Base 130 attack destroy even resistant pokemon, and Seed Bomb's no joke either. Nor's SubSeeding when you get 12.5% recovery. I don't care that it's frail and hard to get in in the first place, bring it in on a resist, or a Steel/Wall, basically anything slower than it, and it's gonna cause havok. You can't even status it unless you catch it on the initial switch.
Against Breloom, you have to sacrifice something to the sleep, and then switch something in, break it's Sub [And take a Focus Punch while you're at it, while it goes back up to 100%], just to force it out.
Blissey. When was the last time you saw a Special Sweeper? Latias, who was Uber. If it takes an Uber special attacker to bypass Blissey, Blissey is walling a significant amount of the metagame. Blissey alone makes Special sweepers such as LO Alakazam, or Nasty Plot Azelf, unviable [Well, Scizor too, but, even before Scizor, Blissey stopped them dead]. If walling half the moves in the game isn't suspect under Defense, I don't know what is. Blissey is the sole reason why OU is so physically based.
True, I love Jirachi soley for this, I ran Iron Head/ThunderPunch/IcePunch/Iron Head to cover my team, however realise that if it is a Dragon Dance Salamence, you have a 50/50 chance of beating it, as most still run Naive nature and Max Spe EVs. Also Jirachi can be OHKOd [or extremely close to it] if it switches in on either Fire Blast or Eartquake. Usually with Salamence I would switch to a fodder threat, forcing it to kill this threat, and then going to Jirachi, although this can be painful when I have no fodder, which is rather often really..
Eh, many Pokemon counteract Breloom very effectively. Two Pokemon off the top of my head that I can think of (and are also fairly common) that completely stop it are Gengar and Celebi.
Celebi only really stops Breloom if it packs psychic or HP fire, otherwise Breloom stalls out recover.
Gengar may be immune to Focus Punch, giving it the switch-in, but it's low defense makes it still take a bucketload from Seed Bomb, and then Breloom can just switch out to something like Scizor... which will mutilate Gengar, and Celebi too, for that matter.
Celebi may wall Breloom, yes, but if Tyranitar or Scizor come in, there's your Breloom counter gone.
And you've still not solved the problem that Breloom has incapaciated one of your team. Spore in itself is enough to be suspect under Support, Dark Void helped Darkrai get banned, after all, and Spore's even more accurate.
At the person [Who's obviously Pro-Mance, from his stance] who's claiming we're just gonna send pokemon to Ubers until there's none left. No, the only pokemon who will go to Ubers are those too strong for the metagame, so are forcing people to take too drastic measures to handle them. Most teams had at least one, usually 2, maybe even more, pokemon that could check Mance, and guess what, he'd still cripple their teams. Meanwhile, Infernape dosen't need you to carry a check. People don't have dedicated Infernape counters like Tentacruel on their teams, but still manage Infernape well.
On the other hand, it dosen't matter if you've got a Breloom check, if Breloom comes in, the check's already failed. The only way to beat Breloom is to have your whole team able to OHKO it, or close to that [In case it comes in on a resist], and over above Base 90 speed. Ot be slower than that, but OHKO Breloom regardless of what move you use. That's drastic measures.
Breloom has 70 Base Speed. Even Jolly Tyranitar outspeeds Adamant Breloom.
If Breloom is so overpowered then how come its usage has dropped? Just look at the usage in the Suspect tier and the usage in what was the overused tier.
There are three moves it always has, Spore, Substitute, Focus Punch and then for the final move it is either Leech Seed or Seed Bomb. The more common one was Leech Seed instead of Seed Bomb while Mence was around and that basically means its moveset now will always be Spore / Substitute / Seed Bomb / Focus Punch. Rotom basically walls Breloom and Breloom can't do anything to the Rest Talk Gyarados which is becomming more common. Breloom has mediocre defenses as well and can not switch in on most pokemon to set up Spore and what not.
Breloom is more like SD Lucario, it can be a problem once it sets up, but until then it can not do much. It takes a lot of damage from neutral attacks as well, it sports an even lower base SpD than Lucario and it has less resistances. Only difference is that Lucario focuses on the offensive characteristic while Breloom on the support characteristic with Spore, Sub and Poison Heal.
There are three moves it always has, Spore, Substitute, Focus Punch and then for the final move it is either Leech Seed or Seed Bomb. The more common one was Leech Seed instead of Seed Bomb while Mence was around and that basically means its moveset now will always be Spore / Substitute / Seed Bomb / Focus Punch. Rotom basically walls Breloom and Breloom can't do anything to the Rest Talk Gyarados which is becomming more common. Breloom has mediocre defenses as well and can not switch in on most pokemon to set up Spore and what not.
Breloom is more like SD Lucario, it can be a problem once it sets up, but until then it can not do much. It takes a lot of damage from neutral attacks as well, it sports an even lower base SpD than Lucario and it has less resistances. Only difference is that Lucario focuses on the offensive characteristic while Breloom on the support characteristic with Spore, Sub and Poison Heal.
Just adding on to this:
Not every team runs, SS. Not every Mence runs LO. What safe switch do you have for LO Mence anyway? Blissey or Skarmory? Get nailed by Draco Meteor on the switch just to eat Outrage/FireBlast.
Obviously you don't pay attention and is highly uninformed. Not that this is advocating Breloom for being broken but obviously you don't have to be high in usage to be considered uber. Wobbuffett was never actually #1 in usage, suspects such as Manaphy and Shymin weren't either. Evidently if it's capable of being used to rape people by the right people, then it has uber potential. Seriously, read the entire thread.
On another note, Rotom walling Breloom is laughable. It already has burn protection and the fact that Breloom can deal 36-44~ to a 304/313 Rotom with Seed Bomb means Rotom isn't walling shit.
Also, Rest Talk Gyarados isn't doing shit back to Breloom either with it's min attack unboosted Waterfalls as it's only option. And guess who takes more damage from SR between the two of them
I did read the thread by the way, the only thing is that Breloom's defenses are not that strong, only being supported by its Ability and Substitute. With its base 70 speed as well it will have trouble switching in. Unlike many other things that can switch in and then get the advantage such as lets say Wobbuffett it can get you the advantage no matter what, more often than not Breloom can not do so. It does not fit the support characteristic because it can not easily set up the sweep for another teamate. It can cripple some walls, but it loses to most everything else if it even tries to switch in. You do not really need a check as well. Almost any pokemon with Substitute counters Breloom if it is already out. Substitute is an attack that practically every pokemon learns as well.
Me saying those counters was not accurate, I never used them myself personally, so that part was completely off.
With Salamence gone. Do you think we will see more rise in Flygon, Dragonite, and Kingdra users, along with any Dragons who might be considered UU? And does this mean Flygon will become more of a Sweeper than a Scarf user or will that not change? I ask this, because a lot of his move still do pretty nice damage, even with a Jolly Nature and it seems there will be less Ice usage, since no one is worried about Salamence, anymore.
Every offensive Salamence i have seen runs LO. A safe switch into a lo mixmence would be scarf tran or band scizor. Some people give me paper facts like o well he'll eq you on the switch or fb your scizor but the people i play always spam ourtage or dm which makes it easier to get steels in. Also if you have a blissey out i'd switch to skarm and every mence locks into outrage. I mean really outrage. How stupid do you have to be to lock yourself into outrage against a stall team with bulky steels? Skarm laughs and spikes up and then whirlwinds when he gets confused. Outrage is not a wallbreaking move. it is an end game move when you know they have no more steels to wall you. Also the set im talking about is the supposed uber set dm, fb, eq, outrage with lo. The new mixmence set. I mean just run a scizor or scarf tran. They both check it. People seem to forget that after using dm once u are -2 in sp atk boosts which means you are going to want to switch out because that is the main move and then take a quarter of health from sr. People keep saying that sr is a laughable idea of checking mence. Well, why not? taking a quarter of your health each time u switch in is so tough especially with lo and dm sp. atk drops. Another thing with mence is you dont need a perfect counter to it. You just need a couple checks like scizor, tran, pert, cress, weavile. When making a team i have sr and maybe pert or scizor or tran and tbh your good to go with mence. Even though he 2hko's the metagame he will have a god awful time staying on the field with sr, lo and if he locks himself into outrage at the wrong time.
Breloom usually feels kind of useless against offensive teams (unless they have choiced pokemon)...Resttalk Gyara can at least force it out, I guess. If Breloom was used more, perhaps more Gyara would run Ice Fang. Resttalk Rhotom isn't terrible either.....
But yeah I can agree with the motion that Breloom can usually subdue 1 pokemon with Spore. Is it broken though? I'm too biased (lovin' the shroom) to answer that question.
I agree with Raikaria that Blissey could be considered Uber. In fact, I'd say it's more Uber than Mence ever was.
But yeah I can agree with the motion that Breloom can usually subdue 1 pokemon with Spore. Is it broken though? I'm too biased (lovin' the shroom) to answer that question.
I agree with Raikaria that Blissey could be considered Uber. In fact, I'd say it's more Uber than Mence ever was.
Uh, Crocune, CM Jirachi, Rotom-A, Starmie, Gengar, many others. Most things with Calm Mind can set up on its neutral special attacks and eventually take it out. Anything with Calm Mind and a healing move can set up, take any of its attacks, and eventually either stall it out or eventually 2HKO it. Toxic can screw them up but Rest and Jircahi's Steel-typing can counter that. Rotom-A, Starmie, and Gengar usually need Trick (or Pain Split in Gengar and Rotom-A's case) to do anything to Blissey but you can always switch out of it with minimal damage to your Pokemon that comes in. Blissey also can't stay in for very long if you have two layers of Toxic Spikes down.
I think Defensive (or Choice Scarf in Azelf's case) Tyranitar actually shuts down LO Alakazam and Nasty Plot Azelf almost as well as Blissey and has Pursuit to ensure they can't just switch out. Bronzong and Metagross can also easily take their STAB attacks and kill them with Gyro Ball and Meteor Mash, respectively. Psychic is a pretty bad offensive type which is why NP Azelf and LO Alakazam aren't used much. For example, NP Azelf has to run Psychic for STAB, HP Fighting for Tyranitar, Fire Blast for Steel-types not weak to Fighting, and Shadow Ball or Signal Beam for other Psychics.
Ive been using a vespiquen(lol) and its hilarious to watch breloom try to setup, if breloom is running the typical sub punch spore seed bomb set it will NEVER be able to kill vespiquen 4x resisting both its STAB.
Those pointed stones sure taste lovely, lol. The bane of Bug/Flying, my favourite typing.
By the way, I think that the Defensive Characteristic of an Uber sucks and is really flawed. EVERY defensive pokemon can be set up on in some way, and therefore, people use the argument "play around it it". You can play around Blissey, sure. Play around Lugia? Yep, you can still do it. In fact, if Lugia was an OU (I'm not advocating this), people will simply play around it the same way Blissey is played around. Lugia walls no more physical walls than Blissey does special walls. Blissey stops NPlot Azelf, non Choice Starmie, Empoleon, Jolteon. Offensive cune. People have been playing around Blissey for so long, they forget just how many Special Sweeping sets are completely unviable due to it. Lugia would stop all +Speed Sweepers and pretty much all slow set up sweepers. It would overcentralise the metagame, just like Blissey has, and make people play around it the same way you play around it in Ubers.
In short, I find that the Defensive Characteristic is very pointless as any potential suspects are not given the treatment from this clause simply because playing around it is too easy. Apart from the so called "obvious Ubers' like Giratina and Lugia, no Pokemon has ever come close to being banned for the Defensive Characteristic. And I would imagine that if those 2 Ubers were in OU, they would more likely be banned for Offensive and Support Characteristic simply because it is harder to play around Draco Meteors and Calm Minds.
Maybe back in RSE where Blissey walled pretty much everything but right now, the special-split has done more harm than good to Blissey.
Also, Life Orb and the insurgence of wall-breakers like Dragonite and Infernape make Blissey's Life sad.
lol what
Starmie, Gengar, and many other sweepers get flat-out walled by Blissey; heck, even PainSplit Gengar can't even get through Blissey easily enough even tho he has resistance to Seismic toss and immunity to Toxic. Pretty much the only thing that stops Blissey in OU is basically Crocune and 404 HP Sub Jirachi. Latias COULD stop Blissey but he's gone to Ubers now.
Starmie, Gengar, and Rotom could try and stop Blissey using Trick, but they're all Pursuit bait anyways.