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NP: UU - Silent Night

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Has anyone considered hosting a UU Tournament wherein each round a 'suspect' is removed? E.G.

R1: Moltres removed
R2: Venusaur removed [but Moltres put back]
R3: Milotic removed [Venusaur put back]

etc?
 
I'm assuming one of the reasons Milotic isn't getting banned is because of how many Pokémon would get a great advantage because of it like Arcanine, Moltres... Well, basically any Fire Type Pokémon and several Bulky Waters like Feraligatr and Azumarril. This probably isn't going to happen, but it would be fun on Shoddy Battle to have a suspect UU tier which didn't allow Milotic, just like they did with Mence, to see if the changes would be for better or worse.
 
While there's nothing stopping you from arguing not to ban something because "of the consequences this will have on the tier", it is really not a valid argument for not banning something (although it may be a contributing factor as to why people aren't nominating certain Pokemon). The reason for this is that while one can forecast what would happen after a ban, nobody can actually determine beforehand the full effect of a ban.
 
Eo Ut Mortus said:
While there's nothing stopping you from arguing not to ban something because "of the consequences this will have on the tier", it is really not a valid argument for not banning something (although it may be a contributing factor as to why people aren't nominating certain Pokemon). The reason for this is that while one can forecast what would happen after a ban, nobody can actually determine beforehand the full effect of a ban.
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Hmm.. That's actually very interesting (for the lack of a better word). Perhaps people think that the metagame would be more stable currently with Milotic than without, and that is why not many people bother nominating it for suspect.
 
I made a pretty long post on Milotic in the last megathread on why I thought it should be suspect but now that I look back/look again, I really don't think that argument has anything to do with whether Milotic should be suspect. Sure, Milotic has had a pretty enormous influence in how UU has shaped since the beginning, but because of that the metagame has made Milotic just as balanced as anything else.

Pokemon are not banned if the metagame is able to shift and hold them in. I always felt back in Honchkrow, back in Raikou, back in Froslass/Moltres, back in Cressy, that I had to prepare more for each of those threats than anything else. My teams nowadays don't focus on beating the top threats. Instead I'm finding it's better just to build for type synergy rather than antimetagaming for specific threats - something that I feel is a telltale sign that I don't feel anything is overly broken or suspect.

For reference on earlier point, here is my Milotic post again: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2733582&postcount=1348

Most of the stuff that I said there has actually become somewhat even more applicable right now then later, but again I just think the metagame has been shaping around Milotic and it doesn't deserve suspect status or is broken in any way.
 
Looking at the 'list of Pokemon that beat Milotic' I want to run my own Specially Defensive troll set again that could 2HKO Rotom without being 2HKOed back, and could survive Timid Venusaurs LO Leaf Storm. xD

(no I'm not saying Milotic's broken Slowbro guy)
 
Thund91 said:
Looking at the 'list of Pokemon that beat Milotic' I want to run my own Specially Defensive troll set again that could 2HKO Rotom without being 2HKOed back, and could survive Timid Venusaurs LO Leaf Storm. xD

(no I'm not saying Milotic's broken Slowbro guy)
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Errr so I didn't really trust you on this so I ran a calc and just realized max/max milo takes ~77-91% from timid lo leaf storm....spD milo might be something cool to try to wall some oether things like missy too maybe and obviously being less vulnerable to lo venu. Then again people could just run modest which I still find better anyways besides for the obvious other venusaur thing
 
Maybe you guys didn't get my post... I'm not going to look back at the two page discussion a simple rant started. I'm just going to say that Offensive Milotic is the set in particular that I was describing. Bulky Milotic isn't that difficult to take care of. As a matter of fact, I'd say it brings stability to the metagame. That's probably the only reason it hasn't gotten the boot yet. Let me justify my points with some calcs and explanations.

The bulky set's four biggest counters are as follows: Toxicroak, Venusaur, Chansey (I'm not including Chansey below as it is set up fodder for so much, and no body should really be using it...), and Clefable. The standard moveset for the bulky set being Surf, Ice Beam, Toxic, and Recover. There's no arguing with that.

The set I'm using in the calcs is 252/252 Timid LO Milotic. I'm assuming its the standard (it's what I used considering I wouldn't want to pass out on outspeeding Venusaur.)

Toxicroak

It can come in on a Hydro Pump or Surf and set up. Sadly, it is 2KOed by a two consecutive Ice Beams while being outsped.

Timid Milotic Ice Beam

vs. Adamant Toxicroak : 51.5% - 60.9%

Bulky Venusaur

It, too can come in on Hydro Pump and Surf and threaten to do severe damage. Not only that, it can sleep the incoming switchin. Too bad the previously number 1 Pokemon lost its spot because it can't wall this particular set. If it even wants a chance, it has to run max HP/max Sp. Def Calm to survive.

Timid Milotic Hydro Pump

vs. Calm Venusaur : 20.9% - 24.7%

Timid Milotic Ice Beam

vs. Calm Venusaur : 44.5% - 52.7%

So, considering you roll minimum damage each time you get around 65%. Stealth rocks ups that to 77%. Roll max damage both times and you end up with 90%.

Meanwhile this Venusaur has to choose whether to A) put you to sleep or B) go for the attack. The smarter person will attempt to put you to sleep. However, there is only one shot since Milotic also has the option to switch out at which point sleep isn't an option should it hit its unintended target. If one chooses to attack.

Timid Milotic

vs. Calm Venusaur Energy Ball : 43.4% - 51.2%

This is without taking into account Overgrow. However, I'll be fair and say that even with Overgrow it fails to OHKO, as Ice Beam will put you in Overgrow range (Hydro Pump twice won't, though and you're KOed by Ice Beam afterward). If you manage to roll max damage on an Overgrow boosted Energy Ball, the best you're doing is taking down Milotic with you as LO will leave Milotic with around 5% of its health left after taking into account previous LO damage.

To conclude this section, I'd like to say that all of this is assuming Venusaur doesn't switch into an Ice Beam which is easy to spam if you manage to get it in on something like Donphan which is weak to all of its moves.

Offensive Venusaur

There's not much to say here except that this is the current most used Venusaur set, and some calculations are below to show how badly neutered it is.

Timid Milotic Ice Beam

vs. Timid Venusaur : 75.1% - 88.4%

Assuming it switches in on a Hydro Pump, Ice Beam is KOing. As a matter of fact, there is a small chance you won't even need Hydro Pump to KO this Venusaur after factoring in SR. To add to this, it is outsped.

Clefable

Clefable is in a whole different boat. It is 2KOed by Hydro Pump. This is assuming it runs the standard Encore set's EV spread, though. We all know Clefable for its versatility, and it can just as easily avoid a 2KO by running Max/Max. Here are some calcs to justify this.

252 Timid Milotic Hydro Pump

vs. 252/252 Calm Clefable : 41.9% - 49.5%
vs. 252/100 Calm Clefable : 48% - 56.6%

I'm on the ropes about whether or not it's broken. So, a good argument can sway me to either side, but from the battles I have completed I'm seeing something broken if anything. So, that's the end of my post, and I hope you guys look into it carefully. :)
 
Maybe with max/max spread it can survive a LO Leaf Storm, but then what Milotic can do back? Mirror Coat?

About the metagame: it's stable now, no suspects etc. Meh, i don't feel like arguing about that...
 
No, I didn't discount it. I mentioned it. Just saying it counters all Milotic but the rest-talk one in which case it's a stalemate. Besides, common team mates to milotic naturally have a tendency to wall Chansey (Venusaur, Rhyperior, Torterra, etc...) I just don't see it anymore either. It's probably the only true counter...

You could say it's much like Dugtrio and Raikou. Not exactly, but really similar to that case.

Aside from that, read the rest of the post. I took a lot of time typing it up. XD
 
That's true, but all its counters are Stall oriented. I intended to make this the main point of my post which I totally forgot. XD

Basically, it makes Offense, the dominant playstyle right now, almost inviable much like Moltres used to do.
 
MetaGross66 said:
Bulky Milotic isn't that difficult to take care of.
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This is the kind of statement that annoys me. While this is taken out of context there are quite a few posts like this scattered throughout the thread. Basically anti-milotic posts some reasons, then people simply say "it can't be taken care of" without examples.

I'm not saying that it can't, but justification with examples would be nice.
 
On top of that, offensive Milotic is a lot easier to deal with as far as offense goes - it loses its ability to do what it does so well. Neutral moves now general 2HKO where before you could recover stall, and SE moves almost always OHKO offensive Milotic unlike its defensive counterpart. Personally, when I find an offensive Milotic rather than defensive I sigh in relief.
 
How can a playstyle be dominant if it's crushed by a single Pokemon? Moreover, not many Pokemon on an offensive team should be able to give LO Milotic free switch-ins - for instance, offensive Milotic is much more easily beat by Moltres, LO Arcanine, Houndoom, etc. than more defensive variants.
 
Eo Ut Mortus said:
How can a playstyle be dominant if it's crushed by a single Pokemon? Moreover, not many Pokemon on an offensive team should be able to give LO Milotic free switch-ins.
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Used =/= effective.

Of course generally they do correlate, but I'll leave it to MetaGross66.
 
yeah there is arguing with that since the top 4 moves are surf ice beam recover hp grass which obviously isn't the main set. the best set is hp grass haze surf recover; doesnt matter what the most used is, it matters what the best is.
 
Switching it in after something has died solves that problem. Few neutral things can outright OHKO Offensive Milotic if any. Now, that Offense has to either lose a Pokemon just to weaken it or switch out to lose momentum. Switching in anything other than Chansey, Milotic, [insert dedicated special wall here] will likely result in the loss of a Pokemon...

That's the way I see it at least.

Edit: The best also happens to now be completely walled by the number 2 Pokemon...
 
I think that the future of the metagame is a very important aspect to consider when nominating a suspect. Ultimately your stance on this comes down to how you view the suspect process, and what questions you consider. The two operative questions in suspect testing are in my opinion "Is this Pokemon broken under a characteristic" and "will banning the Pokemon make the metagame better?" The answer to former question is a "yes." Milotic walls a great portion of the metagame with minimal effort. However, the entire top contingent of Pokemon are arguably broken at the moment! Venusaur, Milotic, Moltres, and Rhyperior in particular have all been nominated for suspect status at one point or another, and they are all made substantially more broken by the absence of the others (The absense of Milotic in particular). These behemoths manage to keep each other in check (well, Venusaur has other counters, but you get the idea).

The answer to the former question is no! Banning Milotic will create an imbalance in the FWG core that is at the heart of the UU metagame, and will force more suspects in the future, all so that we can create a metagame that may or may not be more balanced than the slightly broken metagame we have today. I simply don't find it worth it to alter a working metagame over the course of several months, especially when the new UU list and B/W are right around the corner.
 
Dominant does not mean "most used"; it means most effective. Regardless, nothing dictates that offense should be the dominant playstyle.

MetaGross66 said:
Switching it in after something has died solves that problem. Few neutral things can outright OHKO Offensive Milotic if any. Now, that Offense has to either lose a Pokemon just to weaken it or switch out to lose momentum. Switching in anything other than Chansey, Milotic, [insert dedicated special wall here] will likely result in a loss...
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Well, if you have to keep sacrificing Pokemon to bring in Milotic, chances are you're going to lose. I mean, you are losing Pokemon at a pretty constant rate.

Anachronism said:
I think that the future of the metagame is a very important aspect to consider when nominating a suspect. Ultimately your stance on this comes down to how you view the suspect process, and what questions you consider. The two operative questions in suspect testing are in my opinion "Is this Pokemon broken under a characteristic" and "will banning the Pokemon make the metagame better?" The answer to former question is a "yes." Milotic walls a great portion of the metagame with minimal effort. However, the entire top contingent of Pokemon are arguably broken at the moment! Venusaur, Milotic, Moltres, and Rhyperior in particular have all been nominated for suspect status at one point or another, and they are all made substantially more broken by the absence of the others. These behemoths manage to keep each other in check (well, Venusaur has other counters, but you get the idea).
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How else are you supposed to deal with a broken suspect? Wait for OUs to drop down? If you think <suspect> is broken, then you are likely dissatisfied with the current state of the metagame because of some sort of the suspect's influence anyway - ridding the metagame of it might worsen it in the short-term, but there's always the chance of it balancing out in the future, whereas not banning <suspect> will leave the metagame in the same state.

And yeah, you can use that as an argument when it comes to nominating suspects, but it's not really valid when voting for a suspect to remain UU / be banned to BL.
 
Has anyone tried LO special Venusaur with a bulkier spread? I've run 232 HP / 232 SpA / 46 Spe Modest (weird spread I know) to just outpace all but the creepiest defensive Milotic. It really reduces the harm of switching into an Ice Beam from bulky Milotic. It's not exactly going to enjoy switching in on LO Milotic's Ice Beam, but it will always survive it with SR + LO, which is better than the other spread can say (so if it tries to revenge you it will fail). Without SR, you can soft counter by switching in on Hydro Pump and surviving Ice Beam. Tbh I find it works very well in the same capacity as the fast spread - the extra bulk and a little extra power is a fair trade for speed on something with Venu's great defensive typing and movepool.

I know the analysis lists a different bulky spread than mine, but I haven't used it so I can't really talk about it. If 232 makes you uneasy, go ahead and use that one.
 
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