I don't even remember what the original argument was. That's a little sad. :/
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
- Status
You cannot ignore the consistency of Earthquake being upwards of 19-20% to surfs approximately 8%. This metagame hasn't changed much from the earlier periods even without Raikou. In fact, Earthquake would be used more now with Donphan, Dugtrio, and Rhyperior, wouldn't you think?
Eo Ut Mortus said:
Timid HP Grass:
"bulky water" Milotic: 40.2% - 47.8%
40.2 - 6.25 + 40.2 + 12.5 (sr) + 12.5 (1 spikes) = 99.15% minimum damage.
CB Azumarill: 57.9% - 68.3% (which is a possible OHKO chance with Spikes and Stealth Rock, actually)
(Air Slash vs) 252/252+ Arcanine: 33.6% - 39.8%
Just Stealth Rock is needed...but Spikes ensures it.
Entry hazards go both ways my friend.
Eo Ut Mortus said:
Restalk Weezing can counter Toxicroak, Leafeon, Sceptile, and Venusaur while it's asleep.....and Restalk Arcanine can counter those same threats....etc
That's a very weak and poorly supported argument. Obviously Restalk Pokemon are given restalk to absorb status and counter threats at the same time. That's why they're used.
Eo Ut Mortus said:
This is personal opinion, not fact. It is 100% irrelevant if I think Moltres is better than Venusaur or worse. The only thing that matter is that one of them is being proclaimed broken for reasons x and y, yet the other is equal or superior at x and y.
Venusaur said:
Of course you can compare the broken characteristics alone. That's what's pushing this Pokemon over the edge. I'm not saying you can ignore the other aspects of the Pokemon, however; you can absolutely compare two characteristics. In this case, I'm comparing the reasons for Venusaur being broken in nominations of Venusaur to the same aspects of Moltres, and frankly Moltres is definitely holding its own.
Eo Ut Mortus said:
Heysup said:
Venusaur can be higher in usage than Moltres and still worse (or equal, once again, I'm only arguing that Moltres is > Venusaur in these regards). Just like Salamence and Scizor. Salamence was banned and Scizor wasn't. By your logic that doesn't make any sense.
Server Stat numbers mean nothing in an argument of power. Read SDS's post (specifically #4 as to why they don't apply in this situation ever).
I'm confused. Why is an offensive player arguing with a defensive player about defensive Pokémon?
I posted only that part because it was the only part that bore any relevance to me. I don't see how isolating that one part changes the meaning of the rest of your post. Removing the context doesn't alter that particular statement's meaning as far as I can see, especially since nothing else within said context is an issue for me.
Not that it matters, but is the quoted segment meant to be accusatory? "I am sure you know very well . . ." implies that I am intentionally trying to change the meaning of your post. What do you think I could possibly gain from doing so?
--
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove in the next part of your post, and for this reason I've left it unquoted; please dissect the logical sequence for me, if you could, because at the moment I've only understood that you're trying to distinguish between a vote and a position--a distinction that doesn't matter in the least with regard to what I'm saying.
Putting all attempts to divert it aside, the point is this: in voting Raikou UU, you used reasoning diametrically opposed to the reasoning that you used in nominating Venusaur BL. The discrepancy between your vote and your nomination can be resolved by simply asserting that you've had a change of heart about versatility--however, when you try to explain away the discrepancy with your playstyle, you admit a form of bias that I feel obligated to (at the least) object to. No, you haven't explicitly stated that the discrepancy arose from playstyle--and this would matter if we were in a situation mandating authoritative jurisdiction, as I would be trying to prove something. The fact is that I am not. By extension, statements like the comparative one about Milotic and Venusaur matter not because of their technical relevance but because of their strong implications.
To reiterate: I'm not trying to prove anything--nor do I have any reason to prove anything. If I were petitioning your vote or objecting to your qualifications as a voter, I would have a reason to verify or prove accusations of bias. I am doing neither.
This isn't very difficult. The issue can even be written away with "one was a nomination and one was a vote; nominating a Pokemon does not mean I think it is broken, only that I want it to be at least given a fair test," which I would believe (and I already believe to an extent). But the current justification on the table (or at least part of it) doesn't sit well with me and I can't let it stand. I will continue discussing this--and to great depth--if that's required, but I do think that it matters enough to warrant discussion.
I haven't been actively participating in this debate between you and heysup, but I've been following the debate, so I can briefly summarize the events so far before sharing my opinion:
To begin with, people were comparing Raikou to Venusaur, and saying that Venusaur shared characteristics with Raikou that placed the latter's possible brokenness into a new frame (or perspective).
Heysup responded to these observations by saying that Veusaur is more comparable to Moltres than it is to Raikou--his original point was not that Venusaur isn't broken (although he clearly believes this to be true) but that it's more comparable to Moltres than it is to Raikou. With Venusaur-Moltres, Heysup introduced a new perspective, just as the Raikou-Venusaur camp did.
You (and others) responded to Heysup by saying that Venusaur and Moltres are not comparable.
That's the gist of the argument as it has played out (without the bit about stats).
So: do you agree or disagree with heysup's original assertion, and why?
I don't know what you are referring to, but I'd like to remind you that if either discussion currently going on bothers you, you are free to disregard the posts being made. I mean, it's not as if any rules are being broken, and insults are certainly not being exchanged (which could be resolved by simply taking either debate to PM anyway). If you really wish to stop the Moltres vs. Venusaur comparison (or my criticism of Eo's statement) from continuing to be discussed, then you could introduce a new topic here to rejuvenate normal discussion. Until then, I think it's fine if it continues as is (again I'm not sure which discussion is bothering you, or maybe both are).
I've seen you use the transitive property to justify your position once before, but I'm still not understanding something here: exactly what is the decidedly-not-broken Moltres doing better than Venusaur that makes Venusaur also UU? Two of the most important points covered by the BL supporters are that A) it's versatile, which Moltres most definitely isn't, and B) Sleep Powder can disable its checks/counters.
Even if you can claim that there are ways to get around Sleep Powder (which there are, but there aren't a lot of them, and some of them range from temporary to completely impractical), Moltres doesn't even have the benefit of Sleep Powder. Milotic, Chansey, and Slowking can come in on it scott free and threaten it out for the duration of the match.
Pokemon that should counter Venusaur along the same vein can't because of Sleep Powder. Registeel, for instance, switches into the special attacking set with complete impunity, but Sleep Powder shuts it down, and it suddenly becomes setup bait for half the tier.
IIRC, your original point was that Moltres is harder to switch into than Venusaur because of its offensive capabilities. That's most certainly not true; it has counters that can stand up to its attacks and either outright KO it or stall it out and I just named three of them. Venusaur can disable its counters with Sleep Powder and either KO them with Sludge Bomb or switch to something else to set up on them or flat out KO. In short, Venusaur is far better at handling its counters. Where does Moltres factor into all of this?
I don't know why people are bringing up "Registeel can't switch into Venusaur because of Sleep Powder". Personally, if I am in lack of a Sleep absorber, Registeel would be my first choice to take the sleep since all he does is just sit there and jack off anyway (If I'm actually using Registeel, which I absolutely abhor doing).
yeah i'd like to point out that venusaur's ability to have a limited amount of initial switch-ins is in some way related to the support characteristics. i mentioned it in my nomination that there are only two viable initial switch ins to doesn't risk being feigned to sludge bomb or power whip and can take a sleep powder as well - these two guys are weezing and registeel. venusaur can consistently sleep powder almost the same two pokemon, which can then create a much easier sweep to the likes of nasty plot mismagius, sd absol, to name a few. the support says that if a pokemon is capable of consistently supporting another pokemon that would make it easier for another pokemon to sweep, then it is considered to be in the support characteristic.
pre-answered questions:
"but wait, so sleeping a pokemon is considered support? insert x pokemon here, so i guess it's in the support characteristics!"
sleep is a great supporting move, probably one of the best. if you missed the above post, then you are missing one key word: consistency. unlike some sleep powder users like jumpluff, it does not hold venusaur's ability to draw in nearly two of the same pokemon. jumpluff is not remotely threatening, which is anything can take a sleep and it won't hold enough consistency to guarantee a sleeping registeel or weezing for nasty plot mismagius to sweep. (nasty plot mismagius is my primary example because it is one of the best sweepers with registeel sleeping).
"why is breloom not uber then?"
that's dumb but i know someone will bring up breloom. i'm just going to say we are in two different metagames and although they are similar in grass-typing, they are two completely different pokemon.
pre-answered questions:
"but wait, so sleeping a pokemon is considered support? insert x pokemon here, so i guess it's in the support characteristics!"
sleep is a great supporting move, probably one of the best. if you missed the above post, then you are missing one key word: consistency. unlike some sleep powder users like jumpluff, it does not hold venusaur's ability to draw in nearly two of the same pokemon. jumpluff is not remotely threatening, which is anything can take a sleep and it won't hold enough consistency to guarantee a sleeping registeel or weezing for nasty plot mismagius to sweep. (nasty plot mismagius is my primary example because it is one of the best sweepers with registeel sleeping).
"why is breloom not uber then?"
that's dumb but i know someone will bring up breloom. i'm just going to say we are in two different metagames and although they are similar in grass-typing, they are two completely different pokemon.
- venusaur runs a vast amount of viable sets, breloom runs physical
- grass + poison is a very good attacking combo because it gains neutral coverage. (sludge bomb + leaf storm are great attacking moves to bather from the get go). breloom only has seed bomb and the unreliable focus punch.
- oh yeah, one pokemon is in the uu tier, the other is in the ou tier. trying to justify a point by proving another pokemon in the ou tier is not going to get you anywhere imo
Consistently also depends on your team. You can easily go sleep Registeel and your SD Absol still won't sweep, or you can sleep Weezing and your NP Missy still won't sweep. I'm also surprised that QC removed RestTalk Arcanine when people are crying foul over Venusaur, too, but whatever. Like I said in my final post in the horrible Salamence thread (located here), incapacitating or severely damaging one Pokemon (Which your opponent GETS TO CHOOSE), does not necessarily equate to "Consistently creating opportunities for your teammates to sweep". Let's break down Venusaur the same way I broke down MixMence:
Although it is a bit harder to try and put a better figure on, the "50-50" argument is still quite close (Say LO Venusaur using Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb/Sleep Powder/Synthesis, no other sets involved at the moment, if you want to ban a Pokemon, it is better to name the most broken set). Say your counter is Arcanine, so you have a "50-50" chance of switching into a damaging move (Sleep Powder and Sludge Bomb). If we look at this "50-50" chance, "consistent" is already starting to look shaky. I really think consistent should be at least 75%+. Now, with good prediction (By analysing your situation), 50% is dropped quite dramatically (e.g. If Venusaur came into Steelix, Sludge Bomb is unlikely to be used). If we ball-park the figure (Since there is no way of completely being sure, with so many variables in it), let's say 30%, that you crippled a Pokemon with Sleep Powder or an attack. Now, putting something to sleep on heavily damaging it isn't the end of the story, you need your "sweeper" to consistently be able sweep with that counter incapacitated. So, I'll come back to my first little bit. "Oh look, I slept his Weezing, my NP Mismagius can sweep??" Let's just say that you DID put Registeel to sleep and you have NP Mismagius waiting in the wings. Is Registeel the ONLY counter on your opponent's team that has a feasible way of defeating Mismagius?? Not necessarily. Counters/checks often overlap, so it is highly likely that putting Registeel doesn't allow your NP Mismagius to sweep because they had Swellow waiting in the wings or something like that. So, this drops the chances of a "sweep from a teammate" being pulled off even further. THIS IS NOT WHAT I DEFINE TO BE CONSISTENT
Fine. Don't underestimate Jumpluff, though, she will make you trip your balls (I've stalled out more teams with Jumpluff than I have "Support Characteristic"ed with Venusaur, though).
No, it isn't. The Support Characteristic, in its purest form (Which you're using, by the way) is not affected by tier. It doesn't say "If a Pokemon is OU, the Support Characteristic doesn't apply". It doesn't matter that they are two completely different Pokemon, it matters that they end up doing what the Support Characteristic states that they do, and if you look at it from THAT perspective, Venusaur and Breloom have A LOT IN COMMON.
Again, irrelevant. If they both end up doing what the Support Characteristic states it does, it should be banned (or not banned). Venusaur (Breloom) can put an opponent to sleep. Venusaur (Breloom) can poke a huge hole into the opponent's team with Sludge Bomb, Leaf Storm and other moves (Seed Bomb, Focus Punch and other moves). I really hate it when people just point out some of the most irrelevant differences and home in on them while ignoring the big picture. Hey, Venusaur fits the Support Characteristic because it can run a bunch of sets!! Tell that to Wobbuffet (Yeh, I'm joking, but you get my point).
Grass/Fighting is a much better attacking type combo than Grass/Poison, wtf are you smoking. Focus Punch isn't exactly unreliable on Breloom either, since it gets one off a lot of the time. If you play OU, you really shouldn't be trying to sell that message, heh (Just a quite note, Breloom also has Superpower, Brick Break and Mach Punch if you don't like Focus Punch, just like how Venusaur also has Energy Ball and Power Whip if you don't like Leaf Storm).
Um Heysup you cannot even start to argue that Sleeping is a good position for any Pokemon on a stall-based team to be in, independent of the fact that they might carry Sleep Talk. You do realize Special Defensive Weezing can lose to LO Special Venusaur if it sleeps long enough right? And the way stall teams work is that they...need every member to be able to do shit and not be a sitting duck right lol? Sleep Talk is hardly a reliable move to say 'I can get around Sleep Powders and still come out on top in most situations'. It is not a weak and unsupported argument, its just flat out true lol. Just look at why Weezing uses RestTalk, and why the majority of Arcanine don't.
are we forgetting the term sufficiently easier? these two pokemon i mention because they really only have a few amount of counters. mismagius is my primary example - she is only countered by registeel and spiritomb and if we want to get technical we can go to the lower ranks; drapion and skuntank counters her as well but they are lesser used. with registeel placed in a deep slumber, you would think that mismagius will sweep your team sufficiently easier with one of its best counters removed from the match.
considering i wrote the set, i know how effective the set is. with the current metagame trend leaning towards the popularity of special venusaur, the effectiveness of that set has died. the resttalk set was used in the metagame where sd + power whip venusaur was extremely potent.
this is one of long post but i'll keep my response short and concise. you are overthinking this too much. you are stripping the definition of consistency to its flesh. we have no set stone percentage to what consistency is but experience speaks louder than percentages. if my venusaur is always sleeping the same two pokemon nearly every game i play, then i consider that consistent. the characteristics did not guarantee a scot free sweep, nor did i mention this once; however, it did say it will provide a sufficiently easier sweep for insert pokemon. in this case, one of very few of mismagius' hard counters are removed from the match and you really cannot ignore the fact that it will sweep easier now whether you have swellow in the wings or not. the very fact is, registeel is still asleep and swellow can easily be switched out on. with swellow dead, mismagius is still alive! and can still sweep sufficiently easier with registeel sleeping. thanks to venusaur's consistency to place nearly the same two pokemon every game, it will help me other pokemon sweep. we may view things differently, but i still think this is support.
nah i don't underestimate it. it's potent for sure, just not my cup of tea pokemon and i win most games that have jumpluff on my opponent's side. its very very predictable.
it is affected by the tier. we cannot compare two different tiers because the metagame trends are completely different. one has more steel-types, the other doesn't; one has more dragon-types, the other one doesn't. it's simple as that. while i will agree on the fact they can be similar in what they do, they are just not comparable due to different metagame trends.
it is relevant. it makes venusaur a better illustration of the support characteristics. it shows that he is more potent and definitely not one sided and can do plenty things outside of simply sleep powdering + leaf storming stuff. but i straw away from stiff comparisons between uu and ou pokemon, i just can't do it because the pokemon switching in are different.
sigh, this is why i don't compare two pokemon from two different tiers. which is why i am not responding to this. i don't care about breloom, i care about venusaur's performance in the uu tier, and the uu tier only. breloom being placed in comparison is completely arbitrary because the metagame trends are entirely different. i hate repeating myself. if you want to compare something, make it in the same tier so my arguments will actually have some substance.
the comparisons here are very broad. if you want a comparison, do exeggutor and venusaur - they both poke holes and sleep stuff. if you're going to respond with a breloom + venusaur comparison, i'd end it here right now. i'll be glad to justify the difference between exeggutor and venusaur however because they are in the same tier!
lol. do you see why i don't compare two pokemon in the tier? grass/fighting is a much better attacking combo but THERE IS NO GRASS/FIGHTING pokemon in the uu tier, which makes the point irrelevant. grass/poison is pathetic in the ou tier, but it is surprisingly amazing in the uu tier. focus punch is an unreliable move to use from the get-go, so its secondary stab move is pretty weak (80 bp).
Why do people even use Weezing when ResTalk Drapion is specially bulkier (70/75 vs 65/70), only slightly less physically bulky (110 vs 120), absorbs Toxic Spikes, can phaze, isn't set up bait for 100 different sweepers, and can take on other threatening special sweepers (Alakazam, Mismagius) so that its special defensive investment isn't wasted? Oh and immune to crits :D
That's a rhetorical question, I know Weezing's pros as well - being immune to Spikes, being able to take on other physical sweepers such as Hitmonlee and Torterra, not being trapped by Dugtrio, and being a decent user of Will-o-Wisp. However, I've always found Drapion to be so much more useful for both taking on Venusaur and general team utility - the only Venusaur variant that troubles him is SD with Earthquake, and that set is walled by half the tier as it is. Whenever I've felt that I've needed to run a Weezing/Spiritomb combination to wall certain threats, I've just slapped on Drapion over their place and ended up with a free slot. Just felt I should point this out, as I've seen far fewer Drapion used in this fashion than I really feel I should, because it is an excellent Pokemon.
That's a rhetorical question, I know Weezing's pros as well - being immune to Spikes, being able to take on other physical sweepers such as Hitmonlee and Torterra, not being trapped by Dugtrio, and being a decent user of Will-o-Wisp. However, I've always found Drapion to be so much more useful for both taking on Venusaur and general team utility - the only Venusaur variant that troubles him is SD with Earthquake, and that set is walled by half the tier as it is. Whenever I've felt that I've needed to run a Weezing/Spiritomb combination to wall certain threats, I've just slapped on Drapion over their place and ended up with a free slot. Just felt I should point this out, as I've seen far fewer Drapion used in this fashion than I really feel I should, because it is an excellent Pokemon.
The major difference here is that Breloom is incredibly slow in its respective metagame, threatens less, and is nowhere close to bulky, not to mention Grass/Fighting is resisted by anything with wings. Also, let's not forget there are OUs strong enough to take the sleep and KO on the spot, like Celebi and Zapdos. OU is a stronger metagame in general, so it can handle even a 100% chance to sleep better than UU can handle 75%.
SpD Weezing is a "catch-all" for Venusaur. It handles both Mixed LO and SD sets reasonably well. Drapion obviously lacks the ability to reliably handle SD versions. It removes the problem of predicting Venusaur's set incorrectly and giving it a turn to set up or hit you with a +2 Earthquake.
Speaking of Weezing, I've actually been using specially offensive Weezing. It has great coverage, decent attacking power (Modest Weezing is only 10-15 SAtk points behind Timid Mesprit), and is a great answer to Rhyperior, since HP Water will OHKO (Subperior is extremely hard to switch into, as we all know; this is the reason I turned to Weezing in the first place). It's pretty niche, but it works on my team since I'm extremely Rhyperior-weak.
I don't know why you'd use HP Water when HP Grass gives you better SE coverage with Flamethrower, Sludge bomb, and Thunderbolt. I was considering using a Weezing like that (used one with HP Water, Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split and Sludge Bomb before to break Subperior), but an all out offensive set does look viable with that astounding coverage.
I'm not sure what HP Grass is intended to hit besides Regirock, which you aren't breaking lol, but HP Water can hit Aggron harder than your other attacks (even with Fire Blast).
Sludge Bomb, HP [Water], WoW/Fireblast, Painsplit/Boom is an nice Weezing-Set.
I used it in the past although i disliked Painsplit as a Recovery move for its unreliability.
@Metagross66: Sludge Bomb + HP [Water] grants unresisted coverage on anything in UU bar Shedinja. And it is quite nice to catch an Arcanine/Moltres/Houndoom on the Switch-In with HP
[Water].
@Drapion instead of Weezing: Weezing is better to take on various Fighting-Types - something many stallish teams (thats where you will find Weezing solely) struggle with. Drapion is almost better if you already have an nice Fighting-Check cause it has Whirlwind.
I used it in the past although i disliked Painsplit as a Recovery move for its unreliability.
@Metagross66: Sludge Bomb + HP [Water] grants unresisted coverage on anything in UU bar Shedinja. And it is quite nice to catch an Arcanine/Moltres/Houndoom on the Switch-In with HP
[Water].
@Drapion instead of Weezing: Weezing is better to take on various Fighting-Types - something many stallish teams (thats where you will find Weezing solely) struggle with. Drapion is almost better if you already have an nice Fighting-Check cause it has Whirlwind.
- Status