I thought Torrent was a key part in Empoleon's standard SubPetaya Agility set.
Dry Skin Parasect is 8x weak to Fire, so I guess the opposite can happen as well.
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Pokemon Black and White (SPECULATIONS ALLOWED HERE)
- Thread starter Great Sage
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Weird offensive variants? SubPetaya Empoleon is his standard set.
The only reason Empoleon isn't used defensively is because of its lack of bulk and no instant recovery. Given Thick Fat, the amount of Pokemon that Empoleon can completely shut down is greatly increased. Azumarill is not comparable, he does not have 15 resistences, good special defense and decent HP/DEF.
Oh. Wow O.O Didn´t think about that. But to this extent it wouldn´t make any difference, wouldn´t it? I mean, if ice resistance is already 4x, another 4x would make already incredibly low damage even lower, which makes no difference, imo. The same as with Parasect, which is likely to be OHKOed by any fire move besides Ember anyway, even without Dry Skin.
But on the other hand, we´re talking about alternatives for Starter abilities, so I guess pretty much anything is better(besides SubPetaya).
Amount of Pokemon it can completely shut down is added by about one or two.
Anything offensively that uses fire type moves, generally have a move good against Empoleon. Heatran with Earth Power, Infernape with close combat, etc. Even Magmortar has thunderbolt, ffs.
Empoleon isn't used as defensive very much because it is weak to fighting, thunder and ground - very common types. Most offensive Pokemon have at least one of these types. The neutrality to fire types is NOT a problem to Empoleon.
Anything offensively that uses fire type moves, generally have a move good against Empoleon. Heatran with Earth Power, Infernape with close combat, etc. Even Magmortar has thunderbolt, ffs.
Empoleon isn't used as defensive very much because it is weak to fighting, thunder and ground - very common types. Most offensive Pokemon have at least one of these types. The neutrality to fire types is NOT a problem to Empoleon.
Well, it would make switching in even easier. =p
I can think of Thick Fat Walrein with its 8x Ice resistance.
I thought the main problems with a defensive Empoleon were as follows.
Low Speed without Agility, cannot outspeed critical threats like Heatran/Infernape that could KO before Empoleon could do a damn thing.
Even though Water and Steel is a great defensive combination, you're still weak to Ground/Electric/Fighting, and neutral to Fire and Grass. The former three are incredibly common coverage or STAB attacks, and the latter two (Though namely Fire) means you'd still take a damn good hit coming in.
You're forced to run Rest for recovery or cope with WishPassing. That's not good at all because if you run Rest and don't want to be defenseless, you need to run Sleep Talk. And that means dropping a coverage move in Ice Beam or Grass Knot. Either way, you won't kill a certain Pokemon, and you'd get eaten. Grass Knot for Swampert and Ice Beam for things like Flygon, I think.
Low Speed without Agility, cannot outspeed critical threats like Heatran/Infernape that could KO before Empoleon could do a damn thing.
Even though Water and Steel is a great defensive combination, you're still weak to Ground/Electric/Fighting, and neutral to Fire and Grass. The former three are incredibly common coverage or STAB attacks, and the latter two (Though namely Fire) means you'd still take a damn good hit coming in.
You're forced to run Rest for recovery or cope with WishPassing. That's not good at all because if you run Rest and don't want to be defenseless, you need to run Sleep Talk. And that means dropping a coverage move in Ice Beam or Grass Knot. Either way, you won't kill a certain Pokemon, and you'd get eaten. Grass Knot for Swampert and Ice Beam for things like Flygon, I think.
How about Flash Fire Infernape? Wouldn't it be cool for Infernape to use it? The only thing that beats it is still Heatran, since Heatran is immune to Sandstorm. Dragonite with Thick Fat = Ownage. Ice attack's damage reduced to 50% is cool on Dragonite.
And if you mispredict and Heatran uses Earth Power? That's the point I was making - it's got 3 other very common weaknesses to worry about rather than a neutral typing.
Better water types make better walls already, anyway. A resistance to fire isn't going to change that.
No... he isn't used defensively because there are other Pokemon who can perform that role better and he is much better off using those resistances and its bulk for setting up Substitutes or Agilities. Even with a recovery move, I wouldn't want to use a tank weak to Ground, Fighting, and Electric. Empoleon = Heatran in the sense that its bulk is great, but its ability to tank hits and hit back hard is better than running a straight up support set. Empoleon was definitely built with bulky offense in my mind, imo.
Exactly.
Ask yourself, why isn't Cress used more? It's got a fair few resistances, but more importantly it has godly defence stats. But it isn't used as much because the weaknesses it does have (i.e. dark), is pretty much the worst weakness to have for a defensive Pokemon outside of rock. Why is Swampert a more used Pokemon (defensively) than Empoleon? It has less resistances and the defences aren't that much greater and still no recovery move. But Swampert has one weakness against a type which is easily covered and also much less seen than electric, ground and fighting type moves. Sometimes the weaknesses are much more important than what it resists.
Well it does have Moonlight. Not as good as just Recover, but it's still recovery.
Fighting and Ground aren't worth mentioning? It's the best switch-in for any Fighting/Ground type we have (purely defensively speaking). Regardless, the only bulky Heatran you see take advantage of its high Special Attack to differentiate it from other tanks or Torment. Empoleon doesn't have Torment. His defenses aren't up to par with Pokemon like Skarmory (Def) or Togekiss (SpD) who have recovery moves, yet those two Pokemon still have trouble with offensive Pokemon.
Which is pretty much useless in the omnipresent t-tar SS.
On the flipside, Empoleon could be used in theory with thick fat and roost (well penguins roost perpetually right?); the steel typing is what gives it an edge - if you look, literally every steel type bar mawile and registeel (who is a top tier UU) is in OU/BL... steel typing is inherently good really
You'll notice that 3 of those 4 steels carry the horrible Rock/Steel type combination, one of them is outclassed entirely by Forretress, and Steelix has too many weaknesses to common types to be of much use, despite its gargantuan defense.
Steel is inherently a great type to have - just look at the difference between Gallade and Lucario.
Steel is inherently a great type to have - just look at the difference between Gallade and Lucario.
When T-Tar comes out, Sandstorm is the last thing Cress has to worry about.
Then you didn't answer my question - why is Swampert more used as a defensive Pokemon than Empoleon? It's got less resistances and still no recovery and it's defensive stats aren't that much better.
The point is that it's weaknesses make or break walls. Empoleon is weak to three of the most common types. Fire type moves is the least of it's problems. With a fire type resistance, it would still be inferior to, say, Swampert or Vaporeon - and wouldn't have a nice niche in OU with Torrent SubPetaya.
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