Of course it is. Which is why Thick Fat is such an irrelevant ability on Empoleon.
With thick fat, it would just be an inferior version of the other bulky waters.
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Pokemon Black and White (SPECULATIONS ALLOWED HERE)
- Thread starter Great Sage
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With thick fat, it would just be an inferior version of the other bulky waters.
Just as a question, has anyone ever tried a SubPolish Liechi Torterra? Something like:
Torterra@Liechi Berry
Adamant | Overgrow
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 HP
Substitute
Rock Polish
Seed Bomb/Stone Edge
Earthquake
Obviously Dragonite walls this without Stone Edge, but Seed Bomb does gain STAB.
(I'm terrible at setmaking btw)
I believe that Empoleon is used because of its resistances to both Bullet Punch and Extremespeed.
And one of them is very useable in OU (Aggron).
And i thought the difference was Extremespeed (also the reason why Heracross isn't what it used to be, despite being just a little slower but much stronger and bulkier).
Of course the resists Steel gives to Lucario are valuable though.
Point missed. Well done.
Empoleon has three awful weaknesses which stop it being a good wall like other bulky water types. The neutrality to fire types means nearly nothing to it's walling capabilities and therefore the entire argument is stupid because thick fat Empoleon would be inferior to stuff like Swampert.
fair enough; as others have already said, Rock/Steel is terrible. Aggron is able to transcend that pretty much exclusively with a wide physical movepool, Rock Polish, Magnet Rise and (most importantly) NO RECOIL HEAD SMASH. Otherwise, Steelix isn't that bad either, especially in UU
I will give you that there are 4 really poor steel types.
Compare this to fire, which has literally 2 OUs lol
Yeah this is the main selling point of Lucario: powerful priority
Funny you should mention Fire, as the only typing worse than Rock/Steel is Rock/Fire. Although, if we ever get dual-type moves, that typing does serve the purpose of the absolute rapage that is Swampert using Muddy Water on Magcargo :naughty:
Aggron is of course very useable; I think we were referring to steels as defensive assets in OU when he brought up those exception. I could have misunderstood.
And while I agree that Extremespeed is one of its main selling points, Lucario also has more useful switchin opportunities. 4x resist to Rock and Dark is useful considering that both have a low defense stat, and steel typing helps Lucario with enemy priority such as Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, etc. Gallade resists Mach Punch which is really only seen on Infernape and maybe Breloom.
It wouldn't be neutral to fire, it would resist fire. Thick Fat Empoleon would have several advantages to Swampert on a stall team, among those its ample resistances, immunity to toxic, and resistance to Stealth Rocks. Both of these are a big deal given their lack of instant recovery. The Stealth Rock damage basically evens out their HP stats.
Choice Scarf Heatran on the switchin (most used pokemon in the metagame) Fire Blast
Thick Fat Empoleon using standard defensive set EVs: 28.25% - 32.05%
Swampert on standard lead: 37.9% - 43.4%
And before you say "You can't predict if it is." Yes you can. Its a scarf, not a specs or band. You can always tell when a pokemon is scarfed after it has moved.
Swampert is also taking more damage off of Pursuit, again an incredibly important point for a pokemon with NO instant recovery.
Emleon also has access to Knock Off and Yawn, support options Swampert does not.
Many (not all) of Empoleon's counters are going to have a rough time switching in thanks to its strong Special attack. If it has a sub up, a lot of damage can be done to the opposing Pokemon, trying to switch in. There are still some solid counters, but Emoleon doesn't fear counters the same way most pokemon do because of a resistance to Stealth Rocks. Swampert on the other had counters and must always fear the residue damage of Stealth Rocks+ Sandstorm, two very common forces in the current metagame.
There are plenty of reasons to use a Thick Fat defensive Empoleon.
Rock/Steel is an amazing type on paper. And its two weaknesses(Ground and Fighting) could easily be covered by just using any levitating Psychic or Ghost, of which plenty exist(Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Cresselia, Gengar, Mismagius and for Gen V Koromori-Evo*).
Additionally almost all of them can choose to be Sturdy aka AutoSash and get a SpDef boost in sandstorm.
And with this knowledge, to bring the topic back to Gen V, do any of you think these steels will get a usage boost with Gen V?
*assuming it gets an evolution, as it seems to replace Zubat.
Well done, thick fat Empoleon can counter one kind of Heatran. Of course, all other Heatrans that aren't choiced rip a new arsehole out of Empoleon. Breloom counters a choice scarfed Heatran that is locked into Earth Power. Doesn't mean it's a good counter to Heatran in general.
Hang on, do you even know what Swampert is? Swampert gets Yawn, and doesn't take any damage from sandstorm and resists stealth rock. It doesn't get knock off, but I think that's a fair price for better defences and better defensive typing given that it is weak to only one type, easily covered. Most Swamperts are physically defensive and don't really fear Pursuit. For example, a choice banded pursuit from Scizor takes 20% when switching out - but unlike Empoleon, Swampert doesn't have to switch out of Scizor in the first place. Bullet Punch, shit. Superpower isn't a problem either. But Empoleon shits itself at the thought of a superpower from Scizor.
Empoleon's special attack is a mammoth one point higher than Swampert's attack.
Swampert resists Stealth Rock.
Wrong. Standar lead takes 25.4% - 29.9% from Scarf Fire Blast.
And Empoleon can be hit with Earth Power, making Swampert a safer switch in.
Yeah, and probably after it destroyed one of your pokes too because it firstly moved the way you didn't expected to.
Who's going to use Pursuit on Swampert? Tyranitar? Weavile? Hell no.
Swampert also gets Yawn.
Swampert is also immune to Sandstorm.
I hope you're being sarcastic with your comments...
Nothing is going to attempt Pursuing Swampert. Tyranitar/Metagross will switch out in fear, Scizor will U-turn, and Snorlax is better off using Body Slam/Return on whatever switches in.
Knock Off is cool, and Swampert gets Yawn as well. While Empoleon has higher SpD, Swampert has higher HP, Def, and a typing that is weak to a single, highly predictable type of attack. Not to mention that, unlike Empoleon, Swampert distinguishes itself from other bulky waters by being able to use a STAB EQ off a great physical attack, and at the same time use Hydro Pump/Ice Beam off its decent special attack, which is huge when dealing with something like Blissey or Tyranitar.
Both Swampert and Empoleon are resistant to Stealth Rock and immune to Sandstorm.
3 weaknesses - water, ground, and fighting. And just because you can work with a teammate does not mean those weaknesses are irrelevant. You want to switch in to wall Tyranitar's Crunch/Stone Edge? Earthquake hit you. Gengar's Shadow Ball coming your way? It doesn't care; you are outsped and Focus Blasted regardless.
Swampert is used because it has its own niche when compared to other bulky waters. Namely, a single weakness, valuable resists, and it is a primarily physical attacker.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
EDIT2: If this is sarcasm...lol
Swampert takes the same damage from Stealth Rock as Empoleon. Earthquake OHKOs Heatran, whereas 0 SpA Surf from Empoleon does 73.1% - 86.1% maximum. The extra damage is negated by the fact that Earthquake will force him out even when Swampert is at 50% health, whereas Heatran could stay in to 2HKO Empoleon with the same move. The immunity to Toxic/Toxic Spikes is useful, but a stall team should have Forretress or Roserade (to spin/absorb Toxic Spikes). Forretress + Swampert is a better duo than Forretress + Empoleon, as Forry doesn't resist Electric, Ground, or Fighting.
There's no Pokemon in the game that should stay in on Swampert AND use Pursuit on it. Tyranitar? Scizor? Metagross? Weavile? All of those should switch out or in Scizor's case, U-turn, or Metagross', Explode. Swampert does have Yawn, and Knock Off is great but it's not exactly necessary.
Why set up Subs with a Thick Fat Empoleon when you could use that turn to set up a sweep? Vaporeon is going to wall you to hell either way, and beat you with HP Electric. Swampert also takes identical damage as Empoleon from Stealth Rock, and is also immune to Sandstorm, like Empoleon.
A lot of your points just sound like you don't know anything about Swampert.
EDIT: double ninja'd
You're forgetting about Ho-oh's Sky Attack on Parasect. It would get x20 instead of x16 for the attack because of Dry Skin.
Edit: I don't think all the old Pokemon will be in the dream world, but I think it will contain most of the non-Legendary Pokemon that are hard to obtain in Black and White, like the Eeveelutions and Kanto starters, the same way that there were many Hoenn and Sinnoh Pokemon in the Pokewalker.
Would Sky Attack really be Fire/Flying, though? Muddy Water would be Water/Ground because it's... muddy water. Sky Attack doesn't seem to have any Fire connotations to me.
Well it does glow and was Moltres's signature attack so I could see it being Fire/Flying.
Sorry, but non of these points are sufficient and quite a few of them are inaccurate. Swampert only has one weakness. Empoleon is weak to two of the most common types in the game [Fighting and Ground]. Electric moves can also rip him another hole if he isn't careful.
And to some of the others. The dream world abilities won't replace the old abilities, they will just be in addition to them.
isshu was confirmed to be based on new york city! this magazine comes out on friday and is supposed to have a big load of new info too. http://sunyshore.com/scrap/bwnewyork.jpg
Agreed
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