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NP: UU - Zero to Hero
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I'd actually like to test out a combination of Toxic Orb Swellow and Toxic Orb Heracross and/or Substitute + 3 Attacks Heracross together. If you think about it, Swellow is a wonderful lure for Rock/Steel-types, something Heracross frightens off with its insanely powerful Close Combat, giving you a free chance to set up a Substitute.
However, I think that Flame Orb + Swords Dance will be the dominant set. You don't even have to get rid of Heracross' counters such as Weezing. You just have to remove things that are faster, which isn't really that hard with Thunder Wave support.
+2 Guts Facade vs. Specially Defensive Weezing: 113.5% - 133.8%
+2 Guts Facade vs. Physically Defensive Weezing: 92.8% - 109.3%
+2 Guts Facade vs. UU Tank Nidoqueen: 109.1% - 128.4%
+2 Guts Facade vs. Bulky Water Milotic: 103.8% - 122.4%
+2 Guts Megahorn vs. ResTalk Rotom: 87.5% - 103%
Am I missing any valuable calcs?
However, I think that Flame Orb + Swords Dance will be the dominant set. You don't even have to get rid of Heracross' counters such as Weezing. You just have to remove things that are faster, which isn't really that hard with Thunder Wave support.
+2 Guts Facade vs. Specially Defensive Weezing: 113.5% - 133.8%
+2 Guts Facade vs. Physically Defensive Weezing: 92.8% - 109.3%
+2 Guts Facade vs. UU Tank Nidoqueen: 109.1% - 128.4%
+2 Guts Facade vs. Bulky Water Milotic: 103.8% - 122.4%
+2 Guts Megahorn vs. ResTalk Rotom: 87.5% - 103%
Am I missing any valuable calcs?
I will definitely be spamming Golbat this round. It outspeeds and 4x resists each of Heracross' STABs, as well as having some pretty nice general utility. A simple set of 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe with a Jolly nature can take on anything but a CB Stone Edge. Even a Sub + 3 Attack Hera can be beaten by PP/miss stalling Stone Edge with Roost. He can also Super Fang any Rhyperior that come in or just U-Turn out. He also gets Confuse Ray, Hypnosis, Taunt, Whirlwind, Curse, (yeah I might try that) Screech, Nasty Plot, Mean Look, Haze, and of course Brave Bird.
For reference: CB Hera CC (or Megahorn) vs Gol - 28% - 32.9%
min att Gol BB vs CB Hera - 180.7% - 215.3%
So even if Heracross got in an Iron Defense (I'm not joking, its ridiculous how bulky it gets after an ID) you're still KOing most of the time after sr.
My potential Hera sets:
Sub/Bulk Up will be the first thing I try.
Iron Defense (hehehehe)
ScarfCross on SandSemiStall
...and everything else will probably be used so much it won't be any fun to use!
tl;dr - WOOOO HERA IN UU
For reference: CB Hera CC (or Megahorn) vs Gol - 28% - 32.9%
min att Gol BB vs CB Hera - 180.7% - 215.3%
So even if Heracross got in an Iron Defense (I'm not joking, its ridiculous how bulky it gets after an ID) you're still KOing most of the time after sr.
My potential Hera sets:
Sub/Bulk Up will be the first thing I try.
Iron Defense (hehehehe)
ScarfCross on SandSemiStall
...and everything else will probably be used so much it won't be any fun to use!
tl;dr - WOOOO HERA IN UU
Golbat's been a good Pokemon in general, even without Heracross. He's probably one of the best switch-ins to Venusaur (As long as you dodge Sleep Powder, I guess) resisting both Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb and is immune to Earthquake. He can 2HKO 252/200 Milotic with Brave Bird, which is pretty epic. Having three 4x resists to some of the most used attacking types in the metagame and reasonable Pokemon makes Golbat a very good choice for any team. If he had base 110 Speed, I'd be all over him, but he doesn't, so I'm only just "liking" at the moment.
Substitute+3 Attacks is definately the most distructive set but since the third attack is generally Stone Edge then Weezing (with Fire Blast) is probably it's best counter.
Anyway I think the metagame will be shaked a bit in the first weeks as most people will think that with Heracross on their team nothing will stop them... then everyone is gonna realize that the little cute bug is not so broken... just like what happened to Rhyperior when it dropped from OU.
P.S.: My favourite Golbat set is the CB lead one. With Inner Focus it is able to live Fake Out and OHKO Ambipom with Brave Bird (which is always satisfying) while it can absorb Trick Scarf, put to sleep with Hypnosis (If it only had 70% accuracy..) or Taunt leads that set up entry hazard. It is also a good scouter with U-Turn and a cool late game cleaner.
Anyway I think the metagame will be shaked a bit in the first weeks as most people will think that with Heracross on their team nothing will stop them... then everyone is gonna realize that the little cute bug is not so broken... just like what happened to Rhyperior when it dropped from OU.
P.S.: My favourite Golbat set is the CB lead one. With Inner Focus it is able to live Fake Out and OHKO Ambipom with Brave Bird (which is always satisfying) while it can absorb Trick Scarf, put to sleep with Hypnosis (If it only had 70% accuracy..) or Taunt leads that set up entry hazard. It is also a good scouter with U-Turn and a cool late game cleaner.
Holy Staraptor dung, four pages already??? Well, I already decided to hold off on everything until I get my laptop back, which should be soon... But it will be fun to see whether my existing teams can handle Heracross. Interestingly, Heracross was a lot of fun in the CAP 11 playtest, so I'm not saying no to it on a UU team!
Mismagius (and Alakazam, but the Fighting immunity is really too good to pass up) is a cool partner for Heracross too because Cross can come in on Chansey / Registeel / Spiritomb / Drapion relatively easily and proceed to wreck face. It's like a Hitmonlee that doesn't care about Toxic or Spiritomb - and hits a lot harder with better typing, bulk and dual STAB.
Uhh... since when he can 2HKO? Max Attack Jolly Golbat (rare) holding Life Orb (even rarer) deals 45.18% - 53.30% to Milotic, a 0.07% KO chance with Leftovers.
LO Golbat with Max Attack? Sorry, but your Heracross/Venusaur counter will be Roosting a lot, especially taking 3x% from Venusaur's Sludge Bomb + SR damage. Also, it's not like all Milotics go with that spread or actually switch in (especially because Milotic loses in the long run due to Taunt).
You know, I was going to ask about the viability of Golbat with Rolf's spread(except I forgot about the SR number) and like Super Fang/Roost/Brave Bird/utility(I don't know what would work best in the UU metagame) but I thought I'd look like a moron since I don't actually play UU, lol. Also, is Toxicroak with Poison Jab likely to see any use as a check to Heracross? He does resist basically everything Heracross is likely to have outside of EQ, including a x4 resistance to Megahorn(even CB Megahorn doesn't 2HKO after SR).
Theorymoning,
practical, but not really...
Swalot @ Choice Scarf
252 Atk+ / 252 Spe
-Encore
-Explosion / Destiny Bond
-Gunk Shot
-Hp Flying/ Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
"If Heracross gets behind a Sub or SD's then you are fucked." Swallot resists both STAB attacks, will outpace all but choice scarf, Encore's setup, and can outright KO with Explosion. What makes this less than gimmicky? The fact that a 'fast' Explosion and/or Encore can screw over several Pokemon other than Heracross such as Venusaur and Milotic, to name a few.
practical, but not really...
Swalot @ Choice Scarf
252 Atk+ / 252 Spe
-Encore
-Explosion / Destiny Bond
-Gunk Shot
-Hp Flying/ Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
"If Heracross gets behind a Sub or SD's then you are fucked." Swallot resists both STAB attacks, will outpace all but choice scarf, Encore's setup, and can outright KO with Explosion. What makes this less than gimmicky? The fact that a 'fast' Explosion and/or Encore can screw over several Pokemon other than Heracross such as Venusaur and Milotic, to name a few.
It is a shaky check at best for CB versions. It can switch into all but Close Combat, which 2HKOs. Worth to note Toxicroak speed ties with Heracross and Poison Jab deals 78.5% - 92.7% to 4/0 Heracross, not a guaranteed OHKO.
Guts Facade OHKOs though and Sub versions still shit over Toxicroak, so think twice before blindly switching in.
A CC from and intimidated CB hera on 252/252 bold arc does 45% minimum. 2HKO with rocks for sure.
A Max/max bold moltres fares better on CC. I mean still a 2hko with rocks. Without you can stall it out potentially, or outright kill it.
Guys, as evidenced by the statistics, offense is probably the most dominant playstyle right now. Chansey dropped and the few defensive Pokemon at the top like Milotic and Spiritomb are only as high as they are because they fit on other types of teams and counter other top threats (K9, Missy, Zam, Perior, etc..). This is why I believe the SD Facade set is overrated and will not yield fantastic results. It gets screwed over by UU offense.
Also, I could definitely see people running Counter Regirock/Steelix/Registeel to mess with Hera now. I'll probably troll with that since the former two need more love...
Also, I could definitely see people running Counter Regirock/Steelix/Registeel to mess with Hera now. I'll probably troll with that since the former two need more love...
You could say that about anything. But I'd rather have a Heracross that's effective even if its counters are present.
(Hint: Usually against offense it won't attempt to be hard countered by dead weight counters like Weezing or Nidoqueen, but instead, checked by something like Moltres/Mismagius/Rhyperior like I said in my previous example)
Instead of theorymoning about whether Cross will be broken or not...let's talk about its best sets.
SubCross was mentioned, and I really do think that's one the best things Heracross can do. I has a couple of hard counters on stall, but offense has literally nothing that can effectively handle SubCross without taking way too much damage. And it's not like SubPerior where you can switch in Milotic/Venusaur and force it out due to shitty speed...
Another excellent set is Flame Orb + 4 attacks. Why? Because it has the power of the CB set while preventing the opponent from getting free turns on right predictions. You also now gain access to an extremely powerful Facade...which is much more spammable than Fail Edge. For example:
+1 Facade versus 252/0+ Weezing: 51.8% - 61.1%
+1 Facade versus 252/0 Moltres: 63.3% - 74.5%
+1 Facade versus 8/0 Moltres: 75.7% - 89.1%
+1 Facade versus 4/0 Croak: 102.9% - 121.2%
+1 Facade versus 8/0 Golbat: 102.4% - 120.6%
+1 Facade versus 8/0 Scyther: 95% - 112.1%
+0 Facade versus 4/0 Arcanine: 55.8% - 65.7%
Basically you can spam facade and not have to worry about prediction except against ghosts, because even things like offensive arcanine take so much damage that they really cannot switch in more than once. This isn't a "chooses the right move" scenario...this is just Facade. Obviously Arcanine gets raped by close combat and moltres by stone edge and all that, but with this set Heracross can get in, spam facade, get by its counters and then sweep.
This does have two major issues: faster substitute users (missy and rotom can be headaches) and residual damage in general. The second isn't THAT big of a deal, because any team that can survive heracross's attacks for the 4 turns or so it takes for it to fall under priority range deserves to kill it...and the first one can be circumvented by running Rest instead of stone edge (not like you need it...) and using a cleric, or using a pursuiter.
Besides that, I think SubSD, Scarf, and the standard swords dance sets are also great sets. Heracross makes an epic scarfer in UU, just like PG-Z, and I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being the most popular set (ala scarfchomp)
SubCross was mentioned, and I really do think that's one the best things Heracross can do. I has a couple of hard counters on stall, but offense has literally nothing that can effectively handle SubCross without taking way too much damage. And it's not like SubPerior where you can switch in Milotic/Venusaur and force it out due to shitty speed...
Another excellent set is Flame Orb + 4 attacks. Why? Because it has the power of the CB set while preventing the opponent from getting free turns on right predictions. You also now gain access to an extremely powerful Facade...which is much more spammable than Fail Edge. For example:
+1 Facade versus 252/0+ Weezing: 51.8% - 61.1%
+1 Facade versus 252/0 Moltres: 63.3% - 74.5%
+1 Facade versus 8/0 Moltres: 75.7% - 89.1%
+1 Facade versus 4/0 Croak: 102.9% - 121.2%
+1 Facade versus 8/0 Golbat: 102.4% - 120.6%
+1 Facade versus 8/0 Scyther: 95% - 112.1%
+0 Facade versus 4/0 Arcanine: 55.8% - 65.7%
Basically you can spam facade and not have to worry about prediction except against ghosts, because even things like offensive arcanine take so much damage that they really cannot switch in more than once. This isn't a "chooses the right move" scenario...this is just Facade. Obviously Arcanine gets raped by close combat and moltres by stone edge and all that, but with this set Heracross can get in, spam facade, get by its counters and then sweep.
This does have two major issues: faster substitute users (missy and rotom can be headaches) and residual damage in general. The second isn't THAT big of a deal, because any team that can survive heracross's attacks for the 4 turns or so it takes for it to fall under priority range deserves to kill it...and the first one can be circumvented by running Rest instead of stone edge (not like you need it...) and using a cleric, or using a pursuiter.
Besides that, I think SubSD, Scarf, and the standard swords dance sets are also great sets. Heracross makes an epic scarfer in UU, just like PG-Z, and I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being the most popular set (ala scarfchomp)
Heracross is not a sweeper, it's a general powerhouse and wallbreaker, like Rhyperior. SD Orb is basically CB with the ability to switch moves so that nothing gets in for free, and SD to make sure your Poison typed "counters" die in one or two turns flat.
In all seriousness, if anything is going to ruin UU, it's going to be SD Orb, and 90% of the time, you're not even going to need SD. All you have to do is throw around powerful attacks while your opponent tries to predict their way out of it.
But hey, this is the metagame you guys wanted, right? lol
In all seriousness, if anything is going to ruin UU, it's going to be SD Orb, and 90% of the time, you're not even going to need SD. All you have to do is throw around powerful attacks while your opponent tries to predict their way out of it.
But hey, this is the metagame you guys wanted, right? lol
When will we be able to battle with Hera?
Next week, on the ladder. You can always request a Heracross UU battle though.
A friend and I were discussing Heracross, and he said that he was thinking about using Yanma to beat it. At first I said it was too weak, but after looking it up, base 95 Speed is pretty nice with Speed Boost. A possible set would look like:
Yanma @ Life Orb
Modest 4Def/252SpA/252Spe
-Protect
-Bug Buzz
-Air Slash
-filler
I know it has crap stats and might be overcentralizing, but it seems decent. Roost, Psychic, or some random Hidden Power (probably Grass) could go in slot 4.
After you get Yanma in safely, which is very difficult even though it resists its STABs 4* because of that awful 45 base defense sticking out like a sore thumb. Even after it gets in, Heracross could easily switch out to one of the many things in UU that can wall a Pokémon with bad type coverage and only 75 base SpA. Registeel, Milotic, Moltres, Mismagius, Rotom and so much more can all easily take a hit and OHKO next turn, or you can switch and have them set up on you. On top of that, you will most certainly need a spinner, and attempting to spin so your "counter" can actually counter the Pokémon it is supposed to be countering seems a bit overkill to me, and if you went this route you mine as well use Moltres.
You would be better off using a Golbat, who has better Defenses, useful utility outside of forcing out Heracross, and access to Super Fang as well as Brave Bird, Taunt, and Roost.
You would be better off using a Golbat, who has better Defenses, useful utility outside of forcing out Heracross, and access to Super Fang as well as Brave Bird, Taunt, and Roost.
Hi, I'm CB Heracross. Yeah, switch in on status and nothing switches into Megahorn safely. Fuck, nothing in OU switches into Megahorn safeley other than Skarm / Tran.. which get Loled by CC.
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