Why do they burn the logs? Do they burn them because they hate your religion and want to show you how much they hate it, or do they burn the logs simply to keep their living room warm?
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Burning Qurans?
- Thread starter Aqueos
- Start date
Why do they burn the logs? Do they burn them because they hate your religion and want to show you how much they hate it, or do they burn the logs simply to keep their living room warm?
And that justifies burning them how?
It wasn't a justification. My point is that there need not be a "justification" for it at all.
Some of you really have issues understanding symbolism. You also have trouble understanding context. I'm not sure why, but it seems to come up in every thread by very left-brained people.
I was not talking about the United States. He, Vincent, and I all live in Canada where hate speech is not protected under free speech. We do not have unrestricted free speech.
And left-brained people aren't entitled to an opinion? Besides, what makes you sure that people don't understand symbolism or context? How do you know that they aren't in the "we understand it but we still make this choice" scenario?
Intent is irrelevant as far as I see it. If there is a situation in which burning a Qu'ran is acceptable then as far as I see it, it should be acceptable in all cases. Behavior that accompanies said burning may stray beyond legal boundaries but just burning them should not be illegal. And as far as I am aware, it is perfectly legal to demonstrate your hatred of someone in non-threatening ways. Whether book burning is non-threatening (and I'm inclined to say it is) is another can of worms however.
Please note all this is based upon laws in the United States, I am not well versed in Canadian law.
Because when people say lines like:
It means they're purposefully missing the point so they can argue more, or are unable to understand what a symbol is and why this act is seen as more than "burning some paper".
Did you even read my post?
Firestorm summed up what I was thinking nicely so I'll just go with this: aaaargh
http://www.wtvq.com/news/4940-so-called-burn-a-koran-day-suspended
so i dont actually watch local news, but i slept like shit last night, and apparently local news runs at 3 am who knew ?_? apparently the pastor called this off (i didnt read the original article very closely and apparently this in gainesville which is a few hours away from here, so its all over the local news). apparently pastor guy and imam guy came to some sort of an aggreement that he wont do this if conditions x and y are met. also something i didnt even think of was the possible effect this would have on our troops overseas. also the girl who did that article is p. attractive, just sayin.
so i dont actually watch local news, but i slept like shit last night, and apparently local news runs at 3 am who knew ?_? apparently the pastor called this off (i didnt read the original article very closely and apparently this in gainesville which is a few hours away from here, so its all over the local news). apparently pastor guy and imam guy came to some sort of an aggreement that he wont do this if conditions x and y are met. also something i didnt even think of was the possible effect this would have on our troops overseas. also the girl who did that article is p. attractive, just sayin.
Yes I read the whole thing, from your crazy Islamic rants justifying going ape shit and than your ridiculous distinction between "preaching death" and "killing people" as if somehow that makes a difference. I chose to respond to the only claim that could be reasonably and objectively argued against, rather than your religious mindset.
But if you want me to respond in more detail:
1. Regarding the Muslims views on what burning the Quran means to them, see above. I don't care I think they are taking things way too seriously and basically are pissing themselves off.
2. If you "preach death" that is practically the same as killing people, you're rallying everyone else up and encouraging them that the Quran burners deserve death or that it is a punishment awaiting for them.
Seriously, how did that not cross your mind as being just as wrong? Honestly this type of mentality along with the "moderate" Islamic communities views that they disagree with the violent extremist groups but 'understand their motives' is pretty damning of the community as a whole. Supporting violence and killers, whether silently or not, puts you in the same bed as the extremists.
Ah, but intent does make a huge difference. If you get stranded in a log cabin in the wilderness in the middle of winter with no heat and all there is to burn is a stack of Qur'ans, it's bye bye books. Not because you hate Islam, but because you like surviving. That instance of book-burning is a touch more justifiable than this Florida nutjob, but that doesn't make his okay.
Muslims should keep their anger to themselves, it's obvious that the crackhead is trying to taunt and lure hotheaded muslims so ignore him. As a muslim myself I find it hard not to be angry also but you gotta remember that no matter how many Qurans the poorly minded guy burns, more copies will be made.
I've been keeping out of this discussion, and not just in this forum, because it's one of those things where...you either get it, or you don't. Frankly if you think it's okay to burn holy books then, as long as you're consistent (surely you wouldn't be pissed off if mosques start burning bibles right..?) then there's no helping that. In fact, I feel the same way...I think symbols and the destruction of symbols have cost a lot of lives over the years for no real reasons.
That said, plenty of people, in fact the majority of people, do believe in and understand the power of symbols. Burning books is especially egregious, as it has long since represented the destruction or the condemnation of the knowledge contained within those books. Essentially, burning qurans is equivalent to saying "islam shouldn't exist", and hopefully people can see why that would ruffle some feathers.
The most relevant argument here, though, is not that this is illegal (although its legality is questionable) but that it's immoral. Civilized societies should tolerate all peaceful religions. Civilized societies should not view book burning as anything less than barbaric. That's all. The right of free speech doesn't mean all exercises of that right are ethically equal; Bill O'Reilly has the right to insult black people as he regularly does, but that doesn't make it okay by any stretch of the imagination. The same concept applies here.
That said, plenty of people, in fact the majority of people, do believe in and understand the power of symbols. Burning books is especially egregious, as it has long since represented the destruction or the condemnation of the knowledge contained within those books. Essentially, burning qurans is equivalent to saying "islam shouldn't exist", and hopefully people can see why that would ruffle some feathers.
The most relevant argument here, though, is not that this is illegal (although its legality is questionable) but that it's immoral. Civilized societies should tolerate all peaceful religions. Civilized societies should not view book burning as anything less than barbaric. That's all. The right of free speech doesn't mean all exercises of that right are ethically equal; Bill O'Reilly has the right to insult black people as he regularly does, but that doesn't make it okay by any stretch of the imagination. The same concept applies here.
*eye roll*
Yep, a Muslim is only reasonable if they agree with me. And by agreeing with me, I mean agreeing that they are responsible for their own actions and getting upset is understandable, not threatening violence and that yes, you can always buy more Qurans.
That may seem bias to you, but to me that seems pretty objective seeing as how I would feel the exact same if say someone decided to hold a rally and burn "Origin of Species".
Oh and for incase you missed it, I'm being sarcastic about acknowledging that I'm "bias".
Now you're arguing moral relativity? I'm done.
So basically the whole of your argument against me hinges on me currently having a religious mindset...which proves you didn't read the whole of my first post which said "If I were still a practising Muslim". Okay, I will admit, I myself would NOT be preaching death if I still gave two shits about Islam; I'm too well-educated/whitewashed for that. However, many in the developing world, including many of my (ex)-friends in Muslim countries are doing so right now! I am very lucky I moved to the UK four years ago, otherwise I could have turned out just like them! Scary.
My complete view on the matter: Both sides, the church and those who would act violently against it, are in the wrong and both should just keep their thoughts to their selves. Screw freedom of expression, hate breeds hate and then shit hits the fan. The world has enough problems as it is without people wanting to exercise their right to be idiotic and insensitive or be unncessarily loud and hateful in reponse to said idiocy/insensitivity.
I think that the religion is ridiculous, I think that all of Judaism/Christianity/Islam are clearly dead religions that have no place in the modern world. I also think that their rights have to be respected like everyone elses, which means not being antagonized unfairly just for believing in their religion. You can get in an argument with them and say you do not believe any of it is holy or real, but you do not burn their holy book to try to make your point stronger.
Insulting? You said that Muslims are just making this into a big deal because of "PC", which is sheer bullshit. If you want to be insulted, then do not make incompetent arguments.
I'm glad we can disagree that this is a serious problem in the developing world.WeGotTheJazz said:
"Cultural differences" argument aside, some ideals and morals I simply can't agree with or tolerate. I'm not some ethnocentric, as I limit this intolerance towards cultural attitudes that are unconditionally harmful towards others (i.e. the attitude towards rape in areas of Africa, Middle Eastern behavior towards women and their sexuality, Chinese persecution of Christians, etc.) DM may call me "bias" or some cultural bigot because I won't tolerate and will actively speak against such behavior, and I'm fine with that because I am.
Human rights I believe transcend any culture, I won't buy "But it is the way of my people!" as an excuse. Only time I respect traditions and culture are over inconsequential things like say fashion, diet, celebrations, etc.
Agreed
1. I didn't say Muslims are just making this into a big deal because of "PC". I said Muslim apologists (non-Muslims like say FireStorm) are defending any irrational reaction that would come from Muslims to Quran burnings because of wanting to be "PC" or because of this PC world out Western society has become.CaptKirby said:
As for "incompetent" arguments, you're going to have to explain what makes my arguments "incompetent" beyond that you simply disagree with them.
Because honestly, you certainly aren't in the position to judge my arguments, given your lack of response towards my previous post addressing you and of course, your rant about Christianity:
Making this simple....What that priest(w.e you want to call him) is wrong..why get into all this fuss because of a dumb action some freak does. That said..no-one has the right to judge a religion that they don't follow or have sufficient knowledge about... stereotyping pisses me off since so many people nowadays link Islam with Violence due to terrorists...anyways I won't get carried away and talk beyond the current discussion topic.
I sorta agree and disagree.
It depends on whether that person has their facts straight.
I said or has sufficient knowledge about it..Also nowadays most people base religion on pathetic rumours and comments made by the news. That said I agree with you Mika, if someone has read and knows 'properly' and understands a religion they can base their opinion etc.
Ahh, I see I misspoke, my apologies. Intent makes no difference in a legal sense for me. While there are some cut and dry instances where intent is clear, there are many others where the intent of one's actions are open to interpretation, and for that reason, I believe that as long as there is one instance in which an action is permissible, then it should be allowed in all cases.
And I was not condoning his actions nor trying to justify them, merely attempting to point out through hyperbole the ridiculousness of this situation and some of the reactions by posters here. I can see now that I failed miserably on that front though.
I myself, as a Muslim living in Turkey, agree with Somalia. I'm obviously offended, as we believe that the Quran is Allah's word verbatim, but there is nothing I can or should do.
This thread is actually starting to be like this one in circles, with one side asserting that nothing inherently illegal has been done and the other side dancing with moral values.
There is actually nothing left to argue, you either believe freedom needs to have limits and call for respect on both sides; or you see no difference between a book a quarter of the world holds more valuable than everything else in this world and just a piece of paper, so you justify the action based on the current laws.
Either way, I wish the priest good luck in his future endeavors.
This thread is actually starting to be like this one in circles, with one side asserting that nothing inherently illegal has been done and the other side dancing with moral values.
There is actually nothing left to argue, you either believe freedom needs to have limits and call for respect on both sides; or you see no difference between a book a quarter of the world holds more valuable than everything else in this world and just a piece of paper, so you justify the action based on the current laws.
Either way, I wish the priest good luck in his future endeavors.