Well, I've been thinking about the specially defensive resttalk/bulk ups set. After running calcs, it sets up on like half the tier (well, I didn't run that many =P), but it walls venusaur and such, and non haze milotic is just set up bait. Those are the top two pokemon atm and I love taking advantage of 'em. =)
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NP: UU - Zero to Hero
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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choice band might run adamant so it can fuck up everything that switches in but who knows i wouldnt say nobody would though it'll probably just be less common than jolly
I haven't seen any Steelix on the ladder recently, despite them still being UU (I think).
Yeah, Hera's gonna be raping all the Steels now.
My conclusion is that Heracross cannot be effectively walled. Since status will only help it immediately, it can muscle past most of the walls. The key to taking it out is to switch in something that can take a hit, then outspeed.
A para'd heracross is about as useful as rat shit.
Ah, forgot about paralyis. Yeah, it gets its Speed cut, but a faster T-wave on a SubCross takes temporary advantage of that.
I've not tried it, but I don't think BP Agility -> Heracross is going to be too good a set:
1. Gligar has a 4x weakness that might very well be exploited. It could run Yache Berry, but then it would have no Leftovers, which means it's likely only going to be able to Baton Pass once (barring heavy Wish / Healing Wish support). If Heracross should fail for whatever reason, you've lost two Pokemon.
2. Heracross is going to take a hit as it comes in. It has neither decent defenses nor recovery, so to pull off a sweep it's going to need to KO all its opponents in a hit. But since it doesn't have decent defenses it's not going to be able to Swords Dance, and using Flame Orb / Toxic Orb isn't going to do anything for its longevity (it's already taking a hit as it comes in ...).
3. Gligar can also Baton Pass Swords Dance, but passing two moves isn't easy at all. You'll need screen support to go along, taking up at least three slots on the team.
Overall it doesn't look likely at all that Heracross will get more than one kill a match. I'd expect it to get one kill and then die to a priority move, or at best get two kills while getting Intimidate spammed.
@Flamewheeler - well with Rest + Sleep Talk + Bulk Up you only get one attacking move, and that is easily walled (Megahorn -> go to Moltres, Close Combat -> go to a Ghost type, blah blah blah). Again I must say I'm sceptical.
You underestimate both Gligar and Hera. A Gligar set of:
Leftovers/ Yache
Timid
252 Hp/ 252Spe / 4Def
-Rock Polish
-SD/ Roost
-Taunt
-Baton Pass
Can pull off a boost fairly easily on pokemon like Registeel/Donphan/Rhyperior/ Most stallish defensive pokemon. Taunt means you are pretty much guaranteed to pull of passing +2 Speed, and Heracross and Gligar both have the defenses to take a hit from a typical switch in like Milotic and set up their own Swords Dance.
And how the hell is +2 Speed Heracross not pulling off more than 1 KO against most people? Most offensive / balanced teams are going to rely on faster, frail pokemon with super effective attacks to revenge Heracross and stop it from sweeping them. Suddenly your Moltres, Arcanine, Scyther, random HP Flying scarfer is taken out and you're in deep trouble. And Heracorss does have very respectable defenses (about those of Crobat, who was often called bulky), and behind screens (like you suggest it would be done) getting +2 on btoh sides and sweeping doesnt sound too hard, and is definitely worth it when you're sweeping right through teams.
Not exactly. He's not sturdy but he can tank a hit, and if he does get a good attack in it's gonna hurt.
Unless he gets Para-haxed. And gimme back my climate zone username kthanks.
Well trying to boost and pass on Registeel can be dangerous (Explosion, albeit admittedly uncommon), while trying it on Rhyperior is even more dangerous (it can boost alongside you, or Sub - if you Taunt it and predict wrong, Adamant Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. the Gligar set you suggest is 54.5% - 64.7%). What's more, since you have to set up screens before sending in Gligar, the chances of Registeel still being in is very low. What's Registeel doing against a screener anyway? Without a slow U-turn or Healing Wish or similar Gligar itself would be taking a hit on switching in.
I said +2 speed Heracross will get one KO because there are certainly Pokemon who can take a hit and survive, e.g.:
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Rhyperior: 67.9% - 80.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Donphan: 55.5% - 65.7%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Regirock: 75.7% - 89.7%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Azumarill: 73.9% - 87.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Hariyama: 73.7% - 86.9%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Steelix: 78.4% - 92.8%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Drapion: 68.3% - 81.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Megahorn vs. 252/252 Uxie: 78% - 92.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Megahorn vs. 252/252 Torterra: 81.2% - 95.9%
These Pokemon can't switch into Heracross, but they can come in after a KO - the one kill Heracross gets. Admittedly some of these Pokemon aren't likely to be on offensive teams, but then offensive teams usually have more priority, so especially after a CC defense drop it can't be too difficult to revenge Heracross. Screens, if they're still up, will definitely help Heracross stay alive. However, we're looking at (say) Uxie setting up Reflect -> Uxie setting up Light Screen -> switch to Gligar -> Gligar uses Rock Polish -> Gligar uses Baton Pass -> Heracross gets its one KO, which is at least 6/8 of the Reflect turns gone - and more if Gligar uses Roost / Taunt / Swords Dance. The screens can cushion the pass to Heracross, but to count on it protecting Heracross is honestly very optimistic. And then by using Heracross + Gligar + screener, that's 3 out of your 6 slots gone, leaving you really really pressed to cover your opponent's attempts to sweep with 3 Pokemon.
Like I said I'm not sold on it, but then I've not tried it before - I've only tried the related Agility + NP pass to special sweeper - so I can't say for sure.
I said +2 speed Heracross will get one KO because there are certainly Pokemon who can take a hit and survive, e.g.:
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Rhyperior: 67.9% - 80.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Donphan: 55.5% - 65.7%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Regirock: 75.7% - 89.7%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Azumarill: 73.9% - 87.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Hariyama: 73.7% - 86.9%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Steelix: 78.4% - 92.8%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Close Combat vs. 0/0 Drapion: 68.3% - 81.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Megahorn vs. 252/252 Uxie: 78% - 92.1%
252 Attack Adamant Heracross Megahorn vs. 252/252 Torterra: 81.2% - 95.9%
These Pokemon can't switch into Heracross, but they can come in after a KO - the one kill Heracross gets. Admittedly some of these Pokemon aren't likely to be on offensive teams, but then offensive teams usually have more priority, so especially after a CC defense drop it can't be too difficult to revenge Heracross. Screens, if they're still up, will definitely help Heracross stay alive. However, we're looking at (say) Uxie setting up Reflect -> Uxie setting up Light Screen -> switch to Gligar -> Gligar uses Rock Polish -> Gligar uses Baton Pass -> Heracross gets its one KO, which is at least 6/8 of the Reflect turns gone - and more if Gligar uses Roost / Taunt / Swords Dance. The screens can cushion the pass to Heracross, but to count on it protecting Heracross is honestly very optimistic. And then by using Heracross + Gligar + screener, that's 3 out of your 6 slots gone, leaving you really really pressed to cover your opponent's attempts to sweep with 3 Pokemon.
Like I said I'm not sold on it, but then I've not tried it before - I've only tried the related Agility + NP pass to special sweeper - so I can't say for sure.
Can't Hera do the whole SubSD strategy itself?
We're talking about Speed here.
I meant SubSalacSD. Sub up on a steel, then SD and Sub again until Salac activates.
That leaves it with only two attacks. Moltres will rape its Subs, then:
A - Hit the switchin.
B - Die, and get Heracross revenged.
C - Somehow survive, then rape.
Hm... I'm not sure really
My guess is vulnerability to priority (I mean it's not that vulnerable, but fake out+Mach Punch from technitop hurts, as does E-Speed from arcanine, who is probably the best switchin to Heracross) and lack of moveslots.
You're probably right about Hera setting up it's own SubSD, but how does that change if it's passed Speed and Attack? Having full health is nice, but they may predict the BP and attack Hera with whatever move they have, damaging it and leaving it vulnerable to strong priority, and Technitop can still hit it for 63%-74% with Fake Out + Bullet Punch, easy pickings for any other priority user.
Isn't that a little overcentralizing?
EDIT: I was just wondering about its effect, I wasn't trying to be rude, if I came off that way.
No offense man, but that sounds like every other BL we've had so far and reasoning like that certainly didn't keep them UU.
Hera is always going to find a switch-in and the only way you'll keep him from killing anything is immensely good prediction. Walling him just isn't going to work.
Not really, because offensive teams need to use all of those strategies against shit like Alakazam, Swellow, Sceptile, and Moltres.
That's pretty much the way to deal with pretty much every threat on an offensive team, lol.
Anyway, we just broke 200 and Heracross isn't even implemented on the ladder yet. Wow.
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