hah. well, uxie was already on my team and I was using gligar as a hera check, so I don't really mind.
Well, it's obvious this strategy has a hard setup, so sometimes I only have time to pass agility.
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NP: UU - Zero to Hero
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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hah. well, uxie was already on my team and I was using gligar as a hera check, so I don't really mind.
Well, it's obvious this strategy has a hard setup, so sometimes I only have time to pass agility.
Heracross has certainly added a great deal to the metagame, for the better I might add. It's good, but not ridiculously overpowered - mainly down to its mediocre longevity. I'd parrallel it to when Alakazam dropped down, the hype surrouding it doesnt reflect the actual effectiveness in practice. Have yet to get the team to really gel, but that only comes with testing.
While it's way too early to think about going UU or BL with it(seriously, guys. Just have fun for a while. Testing periods are long), I think the biggest distinction I've noticed between it and Gon-Z(with as much as it was mentioned) is versatility. The Scarf sets are similarly effective, but the cost of being wrong is a lot lower with Heracross - if you misplayed Gon-Z's and it Agilitied it could put you in a world of hurt a lot faster than Hera can with a Substitute or Swords Dance, for instance. The medicore Speed is pretty debilitating, since it doesn't outrun anything important that isn't "slow" to begin with outside of, amusing, Venusaur and Milotic. Scarf still seems to be the best to me(though if I could get a core of 5 other mons that could perform well enough in this metagame to allow it, I'd love to carry a SD set to avoid having to worry about stall), but it has a lot of weaknesses - having to come in and out a lot, imperfect accuracy on important moves(Megahorn, Rock Slide/Stone Edge... dear god where is Adv HP Rock), the problems with being outpredicted all choice Pokemon have.
He feels like a slightly better version of Medicham so far. Who isn't even UU.
Honestly, Hera's type coverage isn't quite as useful as Gon-Z's either, which is weird since it's so much more flavorful than spamming Tri Attack with a side of Dark Pulse/HP Fighting. Having to deal with imperfect coverage and more Pokemon resisting attacks is pretty harmful to its overall power. Though at he can amusingly OHKO most Zams with CC after SR.
EDIT: Also seeing a ton of random scarfed shit that probably shouldn't be scarfed to deal with Heracross. Usually makes those battles easier though it is often annoying in general since you can't really play as though every Pokemon has a scarf until proven otherwise in many cases. Irritating effect on the ladder right now.
He feels like a slightly better version of Medicham so far. Who isn't even UU.
Honestly, Hera's type coverage isn't quite as useful as Gon-Z's either, which is weird since it's so much more flavorful than spamming Tri Attack with a side of Dark Pulse/HP Fighting. Having to deal with imperfect coverage and more Pokemon resisting attacks is pretty harmful to its overall power. Though at he can amusingly OHKO most Zams with CC after SR.
EDIT: Also seeing a ton of random scarfed shit that probably shouldn't be scarfed to deal with Heracross. Usually makes those battles easier though it is often annoying in general since you can't really play as though every Pokemon has a scarf until proven otherwise in many cases. Irritating effect on the ladder right now.
Revenge killing isn't generally a valid argument unless the Pokemon doing the revenge killing is a threatening Pokemon. This is the difference between Salamence (Porygon-Z as well), and Heracross.
CB Scizor's Bullet Punch is one of the easiest moves to set up on. Steel is a pretty bad attacking type, and many Pokemon take advantage of this 40 BP (not including technician) STAB attack and can set up a more threatening situation.
With Heracross, the Pokemon actually outpace it. These Pokemon are also nearly impossible to set up on and are quite hard to switch into. Pokemon like Moltres, Scyther, Swellow, Alakazam, Mismagius, Arcanine, Rotom, Houndoom, etc. are much harder for UU teams to switch into than a CB Bullet Punch for OU teams.
Porygon-Z and Salamence are fast, boost their Speed, and hit hard as fuck. Heracross only hits hard as fuck =/.
EDIT: I agree with that scarf comment Synre.
Yeah I've seen some stuff like Scarf Espeon in my battles... Although because these things are scarfed and not LOed, Banded, or Specs, I find them easier to deal with. I myself am not even using a Heracross right now because with everyone running at least two of Alakazam, Espeon, Moltres, Weezing, Arcanine, Scyther, Ambipom, and Swellow, it is hard to get a sweep going before taking out all of these checks. And if you go through the trouble to take out all of the checks/counters for any Pokémon, you can sweep with anything, really.
It'd be super fucking easy for me to say Crobat is broken because that'd just be another thing for it to check and with that thing being top UU...g/l.
Ha ha ha, I know all of that dude, my entire post was just one big blatant exaggeration. I'm just holding steadfast to my conviction because almost every OU player I've seen misuses him to the point where it's a criminal offense. I kind of doubt UU will be any better about it (sorry dudes). Seriously though, Scarf is probably the shittiest way to use Heracross because you're gimping it of its trademark power to do something it isn't even meant to do. The first thing I'm thinking of when I go to use Heracross is what wall I plan on breaking and which sweeper I'm trying to support...because it's a fucking wallbreaker.
Agreed with everything Heysup said. The single best description of Heracross in this thread is a bulkier Medicham. What prevents Heracross from being broken is
A) Priority wrecks him.
B) He has no priority himself.
C) Easy to revenge kill non-scarfed sets with powerful threats
D) Takes full damage from every entry hazard.
E) Scarf set doesn't outpace UU's most common scarfer, Rotom.
Those are just what prevents him from being broken. He's definitely a top tier UU threat, though. Just like Alakazam and Rhyperior.
lol...doesn't "bulkier Medicham" mean priority doesn't wreck him? Doesn't having CC and Megahorn mean you're not cockblocked by Spiritomb or really anything at all? Doesn't having a type that doesn't negate your Dark resist mean you're not vulnerable to Sucker Punch, easily the most common priority attack in the tier? Come to think of it, I don't see every Pokemon in UU with Espeed, just Sucker Punch...then there's Hitmontop, whose Mach Punch is resisted by Hera as well...Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Scyther's Quick Attack, both of which aren't dealing huge damage because omg 60 bp :(.
And lol Alakazam and Rhyperior. They both have at least two HUGE crippling weaknesses, and Heracross doesn't really have those (except for overpreparation, but I think a sub+3 attacks set will fix that) I can just replace CB Rhyp with CB Hera and not really notice the difference.
You guys can bag on Heracross all you want, but at least make some valid arguments...a lot of this stuff applies to every other Pokemon we have in BL and it didn't mean shit to them when they were ruining our teams.
And lol Alakazam and Rhyperior. They both have at least two HUGE crippling weaknesses, and Heracross doesn't really have those (except for overpreparation, but I think a sub+3 attacks set will fix that) I can just replace CB Rhyp with CB Hera and not really notice the difference.
You guys can bag on Heracross all you want, but at least make some valid arguments...a lot of this stuff applies to every other Pokemon we have in BL and it didn't mean shit to them when they were ruining our teams.
If my name were Heysoup I would never have said that. One broken Pokemon checking another "would-be" broken Pokemon (not that Heracross is broken) is irrelevant.
Think about it, do Ubers checking other Ubers mean that one of the Ubers isn't broken? Lugia checks Groudon (i think?), does that mean Groudon isn't broken?
Nope.
I could not disagree more.
Scarf Heracross absolutely wrecks most offensive teams and still does a number to most stall teams.
I mean how can you say power + slightly above middling Speed doesn't scream Scarf?
Ironically, you're accusing players of misusing Heracross...after dissing one of its most effective sets so far.
EDIT: and then saying that Sub + 3 Attack would be good.....it is pretty underwhelming.
I found scarf to be amazing, it's a great revenge killer and offensive check as long as you have proper support for it.
I don't think you'll need much support if you're murdering everything with Orb or CB set...but this is pure theory, still haven't had the chance to play the new meta. Not going to hold my breath on the idea that it'll be any good, though. Guess "good UU" was more like "calm before the storm"...
SJCrew - You havent even played with Heracross yet, but you're discounting the feedback of people who have because you don't think their arguments are valid? I might not be a validologist, but i'm pretty sure you're full of shit.
Sure am excited for you to show us all how it's done, superstar.
Sure am excited for you to show us all how it's done, superstar.
I think you're getting "discounting" confused with "addressing". As in "addressing logic-based points with more logic-based points". No casualty there.
Your "logic-based points" are not reflective of the experience anyone actually playing in the metagame has had. There's no logic in facing assumptions against experience. You're talking about Heracross in some vacuum you imagine Heracross UU to be in your head, which seems to vary significantly from the game the rest of us are actually playing. Your posts thus far are pretty much useless.
Your entire argument is based on the theory that in spite of having no experience with Hera in UU you know undoubtedly that Heracross is broken and that the game will be worse than it was before, partially because everyone but you is misusing him. I don't think I need to expand upon why I think both of those ideas are ridiculous.
Your entire argument is based on the theory that in spite of having no experience with Hera in UU you know undoubtedly that Heracross is broken and that the game will be worse than it was before, partially because everyone but you is misusing him. I don't think I need to expand upon why I think both of those ideas are ridiculous.
What I found quite ridiculous about SJCrew's points was that he repeatedly claimed that Heracross was being ridiculously overprepared for... despite not having actually played. At all. Therefore his assumptions were based simply on the theorymon in this thread - gimmick counters like Gligar are obviously going to be discussed on paper, but that doesn't mean it's going to go up massively in usage, much less become a staple of the metagame.
Synre is good at this.
Sub + 3 Attacks does beat offense if they switch out, but from what I've experienced so far is that (if they use Flame/Toxic Orb) it doesn't beat LO Cross's usual counters because as I switch to Rotom / Missy, I simply proceed to Substitute and watch their health drop. Without Flame/Toxic Orb, Heracross with Life Orb is missing the fourth move (specifically Facade).
I think the two best sets I've tested so far are Jolly Orb Swords Dance and Choice Scarf. One deals with stall, the other offense.
EDIT: Gligar isn't that gimmicky, too be honest.
Sub + 3 Attacks does beat offense if they switch out, but from what I've experienced so far is that (if they use Flame/Toxic Orb) it doesn't beat LO Cross's usual counters because as I switch to Rotom / Missy, I simply proceed to Substitute and watch their health drop. Without Flame/Toxic Orb, Heracross with Life Orb is missing the fourth move (specifically Facade).
I think the two best sets I've tested so far are Jolly Orb Swords Dance and Choice Scarf. One deals with stall, the other offense.
EDIT: Gligar isn't that gimmicky, too be honest.
Personally, I find the most effective set to be BandCross. Heracross is a wallbreaker on steroids, and should be used as such. Things switching in on Heracross just end up taking so much damage, they can ge picked off at leisure by other faster Pokemon. The other set it SD Flame Orb. This basically rips a stall team to shreds. Heracross isn't unstoppable though. Its weaknesses are middling speed and defenses, and those should be preyed upon. Duggy easily revenges with Aerial Ace, as does Scyther who can switch in on his STABs with impunity. Spinner definetly recommended, obviously. Now would be a Great time to retest Crobat too IMO. Finally the dullness of UU has come to an end
seconding that gligar is not very gimmicky. i am just using a simple hp/def impish spread with aerial ace, and it's one of the few 'specialized counter' pokemon i've used (not just for heracross) that i would actually consider using on a "real" team. gligar reliably sets up stealth rock, which is often a task for which players will sacrifice an entire team slot. not only that, but it can switch into and toxic stall all rhyperior, donphan, heracross, [other fighters], in addition to setting up sr on the usual suspects (thinking of registeel here).
relevant calcs:
+2 jolly lo hera close combat: 51.5% - 60.8%
aerial ace vs 4/0 heracross: 87.7% - 103.7%
adamant cb close combat: 32.6% - 38.6%
(unfortunately and not surprisingly you can't beat orb facade)
cb adamant rhyperior stone edge: 59.3% - 70.1% (easily roost stallable considering you have 85 base speed; note that roost to 100% on stone edge -> toxic on stone edge will never result in a fainted gligar because of leftovers)
lo jolly rhyperior stone edge: 46.7% - 55.1% (if it's slower you can stall it out with toxic even if it gets fiesty and starts eqing you; if its faster cause it used RP all you have to do is spam roost till it gets annoyed and switches out or runs out of pp)
adamant donphan ice shard: 38.3% - 45.5% (won't be 2hkoed even if sr is up and you get ice sharded on the switch)
adamant lo arcanine flare blitz: 52.1% - 61.4% (alright i am not switching directly into arcanine, this is just supposed to show that gligar takes hits very well -- or you can roost stall arcanine until it morning suns, then you toxic)
just a TINY bit more defense would be so nice though :\
relevant calcs:
+2 jolly lo hera close combat: 51.5% - 60.8%
aerial ace vs 4/0 heracross: 87.7% - 103.7%
adamant cb close combat: 32.6% - 38.6%
(unfortunately and not surprisingly you can't beat orb facade)
cb adamant rhyperior stone edge: 59.3% - 70.1% (easily roost stallable considering you have 85 base speed; note that roost to 100% on stone edge -> toxic on stone edge will never result in a fainted gligar because of leftovers)
lo jolly rhyperior stone edge: 46.7% - 55.1% (if it's slower you can stall it out with toxic even if it gets fiesty and starts eqing you; if its faster cause it used RP all you have to do is spam roost till it gets annoyed and switches out or runs out of pp)
adamant donphan ice shard: 38.3% - 45.5% (won't be 2hkoed even if sr is up and you get ice sharded on the switch)
adamant lo arcanine flare blitz: 52.1% - 61.4% (alright i am not switching directly into arcanine, this is just supposed to show that gligar takes hits very well -- or you can roost stall arcanine until it morning suns, then you toxic)
just a TINY bit more defense would be so nice though :\
Damn, i've been saying Scarf Hera is one of the best ways to go.
I've been "theorymoning" too until now . Should i stop, and go fucking use Heracross?
Don't answer.
I've been thinking: Wish support for Hera. Good strategy? (especially since many Wish users are weak to Fighting or Dark attacks. Hera resists both).
I've been "theorymoning" too until now . Should i stop, and go fucking use Heracross?
Don't answer.
I've been thinking: Wish support for Hera. Good strategy? (especially since many Wish users are weak to Fighting or Dark attacks. Hera resists both).
Also agreeing with Gligar being good in this metagame. I was opting for Jolly Max HP Gligar to outspeed nearly all varients of Heracross, but so far I was better of just running Impish Max / Max.
I'm personally loving Heracross in the metagame. He really does fit actually and all of my theorymoning has been absolute wrong. (SD + Status does NOT work) I've been personally enjoying a straight up SubLO set. LO gives you a nice power boost that doesn't absolutely rape your HP.
I'm personally loving Heracross in the metagame. He really does fit actually and all of my theorymoning has been absolute wrong. (SD + Status does NOT work) I've been personally enjoying a straight up SubLO set. LO gives you a nice power boost that doesn't absolutely rape your HP.
I use Lefties cause I'm cool like that.
Also I've had people rage at me for using it, but Scarf Scyther is surprisingly effective. Pretty much like Band except Speed > Power. I love U-turning those Sceptile and Zam that think they can outspeed me, and owning Swellow. It's fun, trollworthy, and viable all in one. ^^
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