NP: UU - Zero to Hero

[Heysup]

Check, as it has been ever since i started competitive battling, is when something can come in and beat Heracross. A counter can switch in and threaten it out. Not too hard...

Anyway, you're right, Heracross has almost (i won't be pedantic here and list them don't worry) no viable switch-ins (of course, based on prediction).

Now how is this different from Pokemon like Blaziken, Rhyperior, Aggron, Magmortar, and the like?

What differentiated Honchkrow was that it only needed to use one move to beat basically every Pokemon switching in, where as Heracross cannot do this with only one move. Additionally, Honchkrow had STAB Sucker Punch to destroy offense.

What differentiated Gallade was simply its absurd special bulk and lack of common exploitable weaknesses mixed with its monstrous attack and the too-perfect combination of Shadow Sneak and Close Combat.

I really don't see Heracross with some "special" characteristic like the current BL Pokemon. I get that it's a little bulkier and faster, but those are only minor things compared to what I mentioned above.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

You don't even have to predict to have Heracross rape shit. Megahorn and Close Combat and pretty much 2HKO anything resistant to it that would be deemed a check. Moltres is already taking what 34-41? And Rotom/Mismagius gets 2HKO'd by Megahorn anyways?

Not to mention that you're obviously ignoring the other banned Pokemon's weaknesses where Heracross has a GREAT advantage. That being basically immune to status. A burnt/paralyzed Honchkrow/Gallade is pretty much dead weight whereas Heracross only reaches "oh fuck i'm fucked' levels to opponents.

You also keep claming Shadow Sneak as if Scizor's Bullet Punch or some shit but truth of the matter is it's still an unstabbed 40 base power attack. It's not like Alakazam was going to be able to OHKO a Gallade anyways and as for the 2 ghosts, it's not as if Heracross gives a fuck about them. And you keep praising Gallade's bulk like Heracross is frail. Base 80/75/95 is very good for an offensive Pokemon is surely better than Gallade's 70/65/115 bullshit.

Then all this 4x weakness to flying bullshit. WHAT IS USING FLYING MOVES?! Moltres? What else? Everything that's in BL?

Heracross hits hard off the bat like Honchkrow does. All that "only needs 1 more" bullshit. No. If Honckrow hits something NVE, it's then using another move, like Superpower/Heat Wave to Steelix/Registeel etc. That is no different than Heracross. If Weezing wants to come in on Megahorn, it is then eating a Facade. Heracross might not be able to Sucker Punch but most of the time it won't need to as anything you switch in that survives one of it's move, is probably slower. Heracross is an offensive threat on par, if not greater than that of Honchkrow and Gallade.

And p.s., it's different because Milotic/Blastoise is still walling the fuck out of Blaziken and Rhyperior, and Hitmontop/Hariyama are still walling Aggron. Magmortar isn't getting past Arcanine easily either.

And lol, being bulkier AND faster is a minor thing. Right

 

[SJCrew]

Check, as it has been ever since i started competitive battling, is when something can come in and beat Heracross. A counter can switch in and threaten it out. Not too hard...

Anyway, you're right, Heracross has almost (i won't be pedantic here and list them don't worry) no viable switch-ins (of course, based on prediction).

Now how is this different from Pokemon like Blaziken, Rhyperior, Aggron, Magmortar, and the like?

What differentiated Honchkrow was that it only needed to use one move to beat basically every Pokemon switching in, where as Heracross cannot do this with only one move. Additionally, Honchkrow had STAB Sucker Punch to destroy offense.

What differentiated Gallade was simply its absurd special bulk and lack of common exploitable weaknesses mixed with its monstrous attack and the too-perfect combination of Shadow Sneak and Close Combat.

I really don't see Heracross with some "special" characteristic like the current BL Pokemon. I get that it's a little bulkier and faster, but those are only minor things compared to what I mentioned above.

The Pokemon listed above actually have Pokemon that wall them unconditionally and reliable switch-ins for their STAB. Unfortunately, Toxic Orb Heracross is effectively CB with the ability to switch moves, so even if you switch something like Registeel or Toxicroak in on a +1 Megahorn, get ready to take a CC or Facade. Substitute just gives you one up on any sweeper that tries to switch in on a predicted resist and set up.

Also, I've mentioned Weezing before as a reliable switch-in to Heracross, but if it switches in on Megahorn, two subsequent Facades kill it while it it only does 41.7% - 49.7% with Flamethrower. I'd switch out if it comes in on CC.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I just want to weight in on Gallade v Heracross.

Heracross is almost unequivocally better than Gallade against stall. Immunity to/benefits from burn, no "hard counters" in Spiritomb/Slowbro, better overall defenses (80/75 takes physical hits so much better than 68/68 and 80/95 is like only slightly worse than 68/115 at taking special hits), and STAB fucking Megahorn to deal with all those semi-checks Gallade had, like Tangrowth and Uxie. I really don't think anyone can make a serious argument that Heracross is not substantially better than Gallade at breaking stall...and do recall that Gallade was booted precisely for that reason.

Against offense...Gallade had Shadow Sneak, which was invaluable against Rotom/Missy/Kazam and weakened revenge killers. But what else? Was that really all we're basing our "gallade was way better against offense" arguments on? It can beat three revenge killers, only one of which can revenge heracross due to it not being weak to the other two's STAB? And it's not like Shadow Sneak is a very powerful attack anyway...to put it in perspective, +2 Shadow Sneak is weaker than a resisted +0 Close Combat! LO shadow sneak doesn't even ohko Alakazam without any boosts ffs...
And do note that heracross is slightly (but crucially) faster, has a powerful secondary STAB, same or better coverage options, GUTS, and...oh, typing.

Heracross is weak to Fire, Flying (x4) and Psychic where Gallade isn't, and Gallade is weak to Ghost where Heracross isn't. Heracross resists Ground (EQ), Grass (Venusaur/Leafeon), Bug (...pinsir?), and Dark (sucker punch) where Gallade doesn't, and Gallade resists...Rock where Heracross doesn't (good luck switching into Stone Edge though).

The Fire weakness means jack shit. Gallade gets raped by Arcanine's Flare Blitz, weakness or no, and Heracross outruns Magmortar so it doesn't have to worry. Moltres will just Air Slash both. The Flying weakness does matter due to random Hidden Power choices. The Psychic weakness also matters, but only in terms of checks and revenge killing. The resistances are where the real story is though. Heracross can set up on shit like Donphan and Torterra with no issue, and it can tank Sucker Punch like a Heraboss.

I could write a lot more on all of this actually but the tldr is that Heracross is better than Gallade at the thing Gallade was banned for almost beyond reasonable argument, and it's nearly as good as Gallade against offense (although it's harder to compare them here because they have different niches and functions).

 

[Erazor]

Against offense, Scarf Heracross is much better than Gallade.

Against stall... lol guts.

So really, on paper I'm seeing no reason not to ban Heracross.

And my god. Heracross actually gets at least 2 kills a game. It doesn't matter what switches in, it is going to get fucked. All Heracross has to do is spam Facade and Megahorn, using CC only after you've removed ghosts. Even if a ghost switches in... it's fucked. Missy and Rotom are not doing more than 50%, and they can't burn Hera. Megahorn KOes after rocks(guts boosted). Spiritomb flat out loses.

Heracross can't sweep, but it kills pokemon so badly...

That said, I enjoy this metagame, if only because the ladder is competitive again.

 

[vielIeis]

I build a stall team with sleeptalk heracross with max hp/sdef and wtf, so many pokes cant kill that thing, he gets so easy bulk ups and kills the rest of the team.
This set worked somehow best for me oô

 

[Heysup]

You don't even have to predict to have Heracross rape shit. Megahorn and Close Combat and pretty much 2HKO anything resistant to it that would be deemed a check. Moltres is already taking what 34-41? And Rotom/Mismagius gets 2HKO'd by Megahorn anyways?

I forgot that Megahorn has no 4x resists that are faster and can OHKO it like Honchkrow's Brave Bird. Oh wait....

Heracross has to rely on two STABs to hit things hard, where as it needs to hit the switch-ins with the coverage move on the switch. Honchkrow and, to much a lesser extent, Gallade did not suffer from this problem.

You need to predict. Unless you're going to try and make the argument that Close Combat OHKOes Rotom and Mismagius and Megahorn OHKOes Moltres. It can't spam Brave Bird and OHKO everything faster and 2HKO everything slower like Honchkrow.

The Pokemon listed above actually have Pokemon that wall them unconditionally and reliable switch-ins for their STAB. Unfortunately, Toxic Orb Heracross is effectively CB with the ability to switch moves, so even if you switch something like Registeel or Toxicroak in on a +1 Megahorn, get ready to take a CC or Facade. Substitute just gives you one up on any sweeper that tries to switch in on a predicted resist and set up.

Heracross's switch-ins are faster than Heracross and beat it from there. Defensive switch-ins do exist as well (like Weezing).

Heracross is a ticking time bomb. It's like Ursaring with better STAB moves and better defensive typing. It may get a kill if it is switched in on the revenge kill and you predict right. It may also not do anything because its health drains so fast.

Against offense...Gallade had Shadow Sneak, which was invaluable against Rotom/Missy/Kazam and weakened revenge killers. But what else? Was that really all we're basing our "gallade was way better against offense" arguments on? It can beat three revenge killers, only one of which can revenge heracross due to it not being weak to the other two's STAB? And it's not like Shadow Sneak is a very powerful attack anyway...to put it in perspective, +2 Shadow Sneak is weaker than a resisted +0 Close Combat! LO shadow sneak doesn't even ohko Alakazam without any boosts ffs...
And do note that heracross is slightly (but crucially) faster, has a powerful secondary STAB, same or better coverage options, GUTS, and...oh, typing.

Another perfect example of this fallacy where people think that an attack is bad because of Base Power reasons only.

Unboosted LO Shadow Sneak vs Zam: 90.5% - 107.1%. That's a OHKO with Stealth Rock.

How is it possible that a 40 BP UnSTABed attack KOed another Pokemon?? This shouldn't be possible because it's weaker than a resisted +0 Close Combat!

You can pull out irrelevant information (like Base Power) all you like. The only, yes, onlything that matters is whether or not it KOes what it needs to. Shadow Sneak does KO a very very significant amount of its would-be counters and revenge killers.

Heracross is weak to Fire, Flying (x4) and Psychic where Gallade isn't, and Gallade is weak to Ghost where Heracross isn't. Heracross resists Ground (EQ), Grass (Venusaur/Leafeon), Bug (...pinsir?), and Dark (sucker punch) where Gallade doesn't, and Gallade resists...Rock where Heracross doesn't (good luck switching into Stone Edge though).

Bolded part 1: Remember how +2 Shadow Sneak OHKOes every Ghost-type mon that would other wise revenge kill it.

Bolded part 2: You're conveniently forgetting Stealth Rock resistance, which is a huge deal if you're fucking with your own HP using Toxic Orb and Substitute all day.

The Fire weakness means jack shit. Gallade gets raped by Arcanine's Flare Blitz, weakness or no, and Heracross outruns Magmortar so it doesn't have to worry. Moltres will just Air Slash both. The Flying weakness does matter due to random Hidden Power choices. The Psychic weakness also matters, but only in terms of checks and revenge killing. The resistances are where the real story is though. Heracross can set up on shit like Donphan and Torterra with no issue, and it can tank Sucker Punch like a Heraboss.

It means jack shit until you meet Houndoom and Blaziken and...well..every single Fire-type besides Arcanine that uses Fire Blast (which wouldn't KO Gallade).

I could write a lot more on all of this actually but the tldr is that Heracross is better than Gallade at the thing Gallade was banned for almost beyond reasonable argument, and it's nearly as good as Gallade against offense (although it's harder to compare them here because they have different niches and functions).

It is better than Gallade at beating stall but it is NOT remotely as effective versus offense as well since it's so easy to revenge kill.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Wrong, Heracross still doesn't need to predict. If it does 'perdict wrong' it's still taking a chunk out of shit. For example, Moltres would still be 2HKO'd by a LO Megahorn after SR. And if the ghosts are coming in on Close Clombat, they are still going to get raped by either Night Slash or Pursuit or hell even Megahorn anyways. When you start making arguments to how 4x and 2x resists will end up losing to their respective resisted move, you are fucked.

And it's not as if Heracross -minds- sleep that much either. Aren't people filling up their last spot with Sleep Talk as a make shift sleep absorber and a makeshift Venusaur switch in? This is before I start cherrypicking and bringing up RestTalk Heracrosses.

And how exactly is Alakazam easily revenging a Gallade? a 369 LO Shadow Ball is still doing only about 75% average to a min/min Gallade. That means SR AND 2 LO usage attacks. Shadow Sneak here is more of a luxury then it is a necessity. And Shadow Ball is still weak ass fucking shit. The only thing that it absolutely helsp against is Rotom/Mismagius, Pokemon of which Heracross doesn't care about. Is there anything at all that's faster that Shadow Sneak is nothing more than just a weak "oh let me do 30% before i die" move?

And as for HPFlying and Aerial Ace, they are nonexistence in the metagame. The fact that people would use weak base 60 moves to get Heracross shows how much of a threat it is. Even with the high amount of shit that learns these shitty ass moves, you still don't see people actually using it. Sceptile lol..I like how you bring up that Leaf Storm can't OHKO a full health Gallade yet bring up that bullshit abuot how Alakazam could kill a weakened Gallade...way to look the other way huh?

Heracross can spam any of it's move freely. The two Pokemon that are immune to it's main STAB, still loses to it, that being Mismagius and Rotom. The other 2 for example, Moltres/Scyther are fucked by Facade or Close Combat with SR. My last post CC was based off of no boosts doing 34-41. Life Orb definitely pushes it over. It can just keep spamming Facade or CC, if a ghost comes in, it's getting fucked. But you say the ghost can just switch out to take a 4x resisted attack right? Well Rhyperial can just switch out of HPGrass to guess what? The same 4x resisting Moltres. Now Honchkrow has to predict, just like Heracross would. How are they different? And this is all based on the fact that you, no wait, get this, I'm going to write this in caps, THAT YOU BRING IN THE FOUR TIME RESIST OR IMMUNITY to get Heracross and NOT TWO TIME RESISTS. How does this not raise a fucking red flag?

Also the fuck kind of Milotics are you using that are getting OKHO'd by CB Blazikens? It would need SR to even OHKO a min Def Milotic for fucks safes.

And no, I wouldn't trade Hera's base speed for Sucker Punch. Heracross doesn't need priority to be an offensive juggernaut. It's the other way around, Honchk/Gallade wished it had what Hera has, that being Guts, no SR weakness(Honck) and decent bulk (Gall).

 

[kd24]

let's stop comparing heracross to gallade and instead start just looking at what heracross does to the current uu metagame. it's fine to look at old arguments that put old pokemon into BL, but there is no reason to try and "apply same logic to this pokemon". let's look at the bigger picture here, and what heracross can actually do and actually does on ladder and in the metagame. and who gives a fuck about which mons ko which mons. (and by that i mean how much zam does to either one or some shit -.-)

or as eo put it: "fuck comparisons"

 

[SJCrew]

and who gives a fuck about which mons ko which mons.

I do. Heracross KOs everything. ^__________^

Again, the "Hera is underwhelming" impressions depend strictly on Choice Scarf and every other inferior set people like to use. Also, lol at Heracross being bad vs. offense...offense still has walls and I can come in on them and KO all day. Not to mention slower offensive Pokemon (Venusaur) or weak/resisted choice moves...Hera can come in on plenty of shit and rack up damage. It's harder for offense because they have to switch in their offensive Pokemon to counter Hera's threat to their defenses.

 

[Arcticblast]

tl;dr of this thread:

Heracross rapes shit.

That said, I shall now talk about a different Pokemon - Uxie. It can support in X different ways, or set up and attack (SubCM). It outspeeds Heracross, and can U-Turn away with proper Speed investment, or just use Zen Headbutt / Psychic.

 

[Bluewind]

I do. Heracross KOs everything. ^__________^

Again, the "Hera is underwhelming" impressions depend strictly on Choice Scarf and every other inferior set people like to use. Also, lol at Heracross being bad vs. offense...offense still has walls and I can come in on them and KO all day. Not to mention slower offensive Pokemon (Venusaur) or weak/resisted choice moves...Hera can come in on plenty of shit and rack up damage. It's harder for offense because they have to switch in their offensive Pokemon to counter Hera's threat to their defenses.

Ok, as much as I agree that Heracross is BL can you please quit the one-sided way you view it? I mean, what's the definition of an inferior set? When Honchkrow was available I remember me and IB used it in an extremely effecitve way with a Choice Scarf set, never I thought a Wallbreaker would have done better. We can ban something for its most common set like we did to Life Orb Raikou, but you just can't say Choice Scarf, RestTalk or Tank sets are dumb and ineffective. People like to use them because they work; on a different way than your said best set of all, but they still work, so stop implying everyone that doesn't use OMG HERACROSS 4 ATTACKS FUCK SHIT WOOO SWEEP STRAIGHT TO THE TOP set is therefore not qualified to give their opinions about it and is just wrong; after all they do play against it as well.

 

[Heysup]

I do. Heracross KOs everything. ^__________^

Again, the "Hera is underwhelming" impressions depend strictly on Choice Scarf and every other inferior set people like to use. Also, lol at Heracross being bad vs. offense...offense still has walls and I can come in on them and KO all day. Not to mention slower offensive Pokemon (Venusaur) or weak/resisted choice moves...Hera can come in on plenty of shit and rack up damage. It's harder for offense because they have to switch in their offensive Pokemon to counter Hera's threat to their defenses.

I can't imagine what happens when you actually use Heracross's less one-dimensional sets.

But really you're posts make no sense. Heracross can't switch into many offensive Pokemon unless it's a defensive set..which it isn't because Heracross only has one usable set apparently. Additionally, I don't know what kind of offensive team runs walls everywhere but chances are they...well...are stall teams.

On a different note, I've legitimately be using Torkoal on one of my teams and it's working pretty well. It takes Heracross's attacks pretty well and can 2HKO (unless its a substitute or flame orb set which will probably get OHKOed) it with Flamethrower. It sets up Rocks, has Stone Edge to hit other Fire-types, and can Explode as a last resort. I like it :)

 

[SJCrew]

If you have a Registeel or Milotic, that's a free invitation for my Heracross. If you run a defensive lead, again, Heracross. Spiritomb? A Heracross target painted red. Don't all balance teams have like, two good defensive pivots? If not, you're most def running HO or something. Even still, you can have a choiced user with something Heracross resists, or Hitmontop, etc... And you don't have to be ballsy all the time, you can just revenge kill, Uturn, or something. I really don't know why I'm explaining this.

And for the record, Heracross probably has the most awesome resistances in the tier. EQ resist, Sucker Punch resist, Grass resist, Fighting resist, Guts. It doesn't get much better than that, folks.

@ Blue: Stop being so emotional ffs, it's like you're going to cry or something. I didn't say anything about anyone's skill level, just that Status Orb sets are the best ones for Heracross to use. And by extension that would mean other sets are inferior. Unless I missed a reference to your mother I could have weaved in by accident, there's nothing offensive about my post.

 

[Heysup]

If you have a Registeel, that's a free invitation for my Heracross. If you run a defensive lead, again, Heracross. Spiritomb? A Heracross target painted red. Don't all balance teams have like, two good defensive pivots? If not, you're most def running HO or something. Even still, you can have a choiced user with something Heracross resists, or Hitmontop, or Aggron/Rhyperior... And you don't have to be ballsy all the time, you can just revenge kill, Uturn, or something. I really don't know why I'm explaining this.

I don't know what kind of offense runs Registeel anymore, but I assure you it will have Thunder Wave and Explosion if it is being run on an offensive team. Furthermore, these defensive leads outspeed and KO Heracross (Uxie, Scarf Mesprit, etc).

If I run defensive pivots, it's definitely not going to give Heracross a free switch in. This is why I personally love Donphan and Torkoal. Heracross can come in...but at best just hit them with Close Combat and get dominated by Head Smash / Flamethrower. Better yet, Heracross gets cocky and comes in on the switch.

So yea, I don't know why you were explaining this because it needs no explanation. It's a conjured up situation that will not ever happen against a competent offense player.

@ Blue: Stop being so emotional ffs, it's like you're going to cry or something. I didn't say anything about anyone's skill level, just that Status Orb sets are the best ones for Heracross to use. And if one were to come to that conclusion, then logically, of course every other set would be inferior. Unless I missed a reference to your mother I could have weaved in by accident, there's nothing offensive about my post.

You missed his point: you're being completely one-sided and one-dimensional with your arguments, specifically with the status orb set.

 

[SJCrew]

Plenty of people use Registeel on all team types. It was the fifth most used Pokemon last month and even with Heracross in effect, I still see plenty of people using it. I haven't seen any notable increase in stall either.

If I run defensive pivots, it's definitely not going to give Heracross a free switch in. This is why I personally love Donphan and Torkoal. Heracross can come in...but at best just hit them with Close Combat and get dominated by Head Smash / Flamethrower. Better yet, Heracross gets cocky and comes in on the switch.

Of course, that might be working out for you, but I know plenty of people who'd rather have their token Fire type/SR weak Pokemon be something more useful like Moltres or Scyther. Your team is not representative of the general metagame, where peoples' defensive pivots are Milotic (#1), Registeel (#5) and Spiritomb (#3).

Hey, funny coincidence, half the top ten are defensive.

 

[Heysup]

How are you getting these stats from the future?

Your whole argument cannot be backed up. You do not have stats and the rest of your evidence is all anecdotal (ie. when you say "I know that many people like to only run this Pokemon and that Pokemon because I know them" or "I don't see stall ever").

I was speaking as a general "I". If I, an offense player, is making a team for a metagame with Heracross in it, I will not give it a free opportunity to switch in when it's easily avoidable, because that would be stupid. This is true for every competent player.

 

[SJCrew]

There's no way you can completely avoid having Heracross switch in on something and do damage unless you've made this completely ridiculous Heracross-proof team where nothing is under base 85 speed, you have no choiced Pokemon with moves it resists, and everything carries a Flying move. I almost don't even want to know what the rest of your team looks like.

Let's be realistic here: no one is going to completely Heracross-proof their team just to make sure it won't kill something. You just can't do it without compromising your team's effectiveness. Furthermore, safeguarding our defensive Pokemon against it won't even work because Heracross can 2HKO almost every single one of them while they lack the potency to KO it back. Even that Torkoal of yours is barely scrapping up any significant damage (62.5% - 74.4% with Flamethrower, even if we totally ignore the fact that Lava Plume is necessary for things like Rhyperior and Donphan not to get free switch-ins). And this is a sweeper we're talking about.

You're just proving more and more by the minute how monstrous a threat Heracross truly is and that attempts to even so much as reduce its potency will likely result in a horribly Heracross-centric metagame. UU just doesn't have what it takes to deal with an offensive Pokemon of this magnitude.

 

[Ghost.]

And this is a sweeper we're talking about.

I've never once been swept by a SD/Orb Heracross set. A scarf set has been able to clean up a couple of times but really...if any team is getting swept by an Orb variant, then it is either Stall or a really poorly constructed team that has not taken Heracross into account when team building.

It is really easy to build your team in a way that allows Orb Hera to never sweep you. None of this 'Heracross-proof' team BS. Just an example of the balance team I am using:

LO Bulky Missy lead/Special Venu with a ton of HP/Jolly Arcanine/Bulky Milotic/Bulk Up Heracross/Steelix

This is just a standard team right now and I've had no problems stopping a Hera 'sweep'.

Every member is 2hkoing Heracross except Milotic and guess what...none of them have a flying move and I've only got 1 fire move.

@below - well its like saying Blaziken is a sweeper -.^ its just not.

 

[SJCrew]

I tried really hard not to use the word "sweeper" because of posts like that which totally miss the point...

Just replace any instance of the word "sweeper" with "bulky offensive mon". Might not have the same effect, but w/e.

 

[Smurf.]

UU just doesn't have what it takes to deal with an offensive Pokemon of this magnitude.

Funny that. I dont seem to have any troubles whatsoever.

Seriously, Heracross is too frail and too slow to be the truly menacing threat you make it out to be. It can switch in on a grand total of jack shit, even walls are dealing 40% + damage. Offense teams have no problem with Orb/SD heracross, because of its mediocre speed. You choice it, it becomes horribly one dimensional and predictable. Let's say I have a RP aggron, and you switch in scarf hera. You're not going to risk fucking up with an overpredicted megahorn, and so you give missy a free NP.

Of course if you let it set up you're gonna get whaled on. Same can be said for SD Venusuar or DD Gatr. Build smart, play it smart, and you wont have many problems.

 

[Banedon]

Seriously, Heracross is too frail and too slow to be the truly menacing threat you make it out to be. It can switch in on a grand total of jack shit, even walls are dealing 40% + damage. Offense teams have no problem with Orb/SD heracross, because of its mediocre speed. You choice it, it becomes horribly one dimensional and predictable. Let's say I have a RP aggron, and you switch in scarf hera. You're not going to risk fucking up with an overpredicted megahorn, and so you give missy a free NP.

Of course if you let it set up you're gonna get whaled on. Same can be said for SD Venusuar or DD Gatr. Build smart, play it smart, and you wont have many problems.

Consider the following defensive Pokemon attacks against Heracross:

Milotic 0 SpA Surf vs. 0/0 Heracross: 35.9% - 42.2%
Registeel 0 Attack Iron Head vs. 0/0 Heracross: 28.9% - 34.2%
Clefable Seismic Toss vs. 0/0 Heracross: 33%
Uxie 0 SpA Psychic vs. 0/0 Heracross: 53.8% - 63.8%

Heracross generally lives and will get an attack in. Against some of these Pokemon it can switch in twice, more if they aren't using another move (like Milotic Recover / HP Grass). Also a couple more just for fun:

Choice Band Adamant Azumarill 252 Attack Aqua Jet vs. 0/0 Heracross, which is the strongest unboosted priority attack in UU: 50.8% - 59.8%
Timid Mismagius 252 SpA Shadow Ball vs. 0/0 Heracross: 39.2% - 46.2% (!!)

Finally Heracross is relatively unharmed by status, so that's something else it can come in on.

Heracross duplicates Gallade. It's not that much of a threat to offense, and I'm not surprised Orb Heracross never sweeped Ghost.'s team. It shouldn't. It's easily revenged, and that's how offensive teams deal with many threats anyway. Heracross causes most problems for defensive teams, which is where its BL-ness comes from. On paper I can't see any reason why Heracross won't be BL, but then I can't get any practice with Heracross because the servers have been down when I checked these last two days (zzz).

@Heysup - you didn't answer Aeroblacktyl's arguments. Why?
@Aeroblacktyl - People use HP Fire for Scizor as well, so I'd expect HP Flying use to increase; also there are notable Pokemon who use Aerial Ace (Dugtrio and Scyther, off the top of my head).

 

[Smurf.]

Heracross duplicates Gallade. It's not that much of a threat to offense, and I'm not surprised Orb Heracross never sweeped Ghost.'s team. It shouldn't. It's easily revenged, and that's how offensive teams deal with many threats anyway. Heracross causes most problems for defensive teams, which is where its BL-ness comes from. On paper I can't see any reason why Heracross won't be BL, but then I can't get any practice with Heracross because the servers have been down when I checked these last two days (zzz).

Here's what I don't understand. Whenever the metagame gets slightly interesting, and offense starts to become the dominant playstyle, people cry for banning sweepers to BL. Yet, when the converse occurs, and stall usurps offense, no-one questions the place of stuff like Milotic. Offensive pokes frankly get a shit deal, and it shows in the types of pokes deemed BL. While Cress was banned under the defensive characteristic, it was broken under all conditions, and hard to fathom why it dropped in the first place. People who cry foul should stop, have a good think about what this metagame requires and adjust accordingly. You can't just use the same old mundane defensive teams now and expect not to suffer the consequences. It's as simple as that.

 

[dbcb]

I have found nothing wrong with heracross so far.

People talk about its "bulk" in theory, but in practice, the thing doesn't last very long between entry hazards + orb damage + taking an attack and substitute in some cases.

Its best set so far for me has been the choice scarf and that is just to clean up late game spamming CC once the ghosts are gone.

 

[SJCrew]

@ Smurf: My experiences are based on using Heracross's Status Orb set, and I happen to think it's a major problem when it can kill almost everything in the tier with one set and pratically no prediction. Compare this to other potent offensive Pokemon like Moltres, Alakazam, Blaziken, and Mismagius, who either have completely solid counters or need to run more obscure sets just to beat their counters, and you'll see that the discrepancy is huge.

@ dbcb: Its bulk is not theoretical, it can actually survive quite a number of super effective attacks, unlike Toxicroak, for example.