So come up with an atypical set for a pokémon that would be bad for its typical role, but will allow it to disrupt the hell out of an opponent who is already planning their strategy around it because they know it is there. You can still use a gimmick set on a non-gimmick pokémon to catch someone off guard. Sure, you're making that pokémon worse at doing what it's good at in order to pull off this strategy, but that's the risk. That onside kick you mentioned was an enormous risk that paid off because it was unexpected.
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R.I.P. Leads and Scouting
- Thread starter TheMaskedNitpicker
- Start date
So come up with an atypical set for a pokémon that would be bad for its typical role, but will allow it to disrupt the hell out of an opponent who is already planning their strategy around it because they know it is there. You can still use a gimmick set on a non-gimmick pokémon to catch someone off guard. Sure, you're making that pokémon worse at doing what it's good at in order to pull off this strategy, but that's the risk. That onside kick you mentioned was an enormous risk that paid off because it was unexpected.
This is a very interesting feature, but I don't like how some people at the beginning thought it ruined competitive battling. I would give an analogy about the physical/special split, but I don't think I could pull that off correctly.
The main thing this changes are "surprise" sweepers, i.e. no more random sweeper coming in and decimating your team when you had an advantage. Arguably, it took the sweeper intelligence to set up the scenario. But because of the equal knowledge given to both sides, both players know what they need to get rid of, what they need to kill, and who they need to conserve right from the start. Then, the battles become more "epic", as both players know from the start what their goals will be and possibly their opponent's as well--this adds a whole new dimension to competitive battling.
This is a very interesting mechanic. I think people don't like it because it is just so new, and they aren't used to it. I think that they think that, for some reason, with their teams exposed, they will be easily defeated. But you are also learning what your opponent has as well, so it really is a more of a mental competition as to who can execute better moves. Obviously, in every battle, one team might have certain weaknesses that the other can exploit. But the player with the handicap will still know what he has to do to win--and besides, it is a small handicap that can improve playing and help players.
I don't know what to make of the lead mechanic. Personally, I love it, as players won't have an immense advantage over one another about a semi-random lead.
As proven before, knowledge is a major part of battling. I'm not saying that you know every detail of their team, but it helps.
I remember playing some immediate rematches, but I don't think I liked those because I was too afraid of facing the opponent again. Mostly I was afraid of the extreme brainwork and prediction I had to do, so I usually lost rematches on purpose. But we'll see about this change.
The main thing this changes are "surprise" sweepers, i.e. no more random sweeper coming in and decimating your team when you had an advantage. Arguably, it took the sweeper intelligence to set up the scenario. But because of the equal knowledge given to both sides, both players know what they need to get rid of, what they need to kill, and who they need to conserve right from the start. Then, the battles become more "epic", as both players know from the start what their goals will be and possibly their opponent's as well--this adds a whole new dimension to competitive battling.
This is a very interesting mechanic. I think people don't like it because it is just so new, and they aren't used to it. I think that they think that, for some reason, with their teams exposed, they will be easily defeated. But you are also learning what your opponent has as well, so it really is a more of a mental competition as to who can execute better moves. Obviously, in every battle, one team might have certain weaknesses that the other can exploit. But the player with the handicap will still know what he has to do to win--and besides, it is a small handicap that can improve playing and help players.
I don't know what to make of the lead mechanic. Personally, I love it, as players won't have an immense advantage over one another about a semi-random lead.
As proven before, knowledge is a major part of battling. I'm not saying that you know every detail of their team, but it helps.
I remember playing some immediate rematches, but I don't think I liked those because I was too afraid of facing the opponent again. Mostly I was afraid of the extreme brainwork and prediction I had to do, so I usually lost rematches on purpose. But we'll see about this change.
Niche Pokemon will of course be less effective. For example, if you know your opponent has a Porygon-2, then you won't bring your Gyara in and DD immediately (not to say that Porygon-2 will be common, nor that most Gyara will carry Intimidate). But creative movesets for popular Pokemon (which there will probably be a lot of) will still flourish. I think this is a good change, and it'll require a different amount of skill. You can try to determine what sets your opponent will be running rather than just trying to U-turn with Flygon to rack up residual damage.
I would predict that the balanced metagame will be more interesting. Weather teams will be obvious, which perhaps will help counterbalance the issue of weather seeming to be overpowered. This may make playing hyper offense a little tougher, which is the only thing I really find disappointing.
I would predict that the balanced metagame will be more interesting. Weather teams will be obvious, which perhaps will help counterbalance the issue of weather seeming to be overpowered. This may make playing hyper offense a little tougher, which is the only thing I really find disappointing.
My point wasn't so much that it is impossible to do so with this change. It's that it limits the number of Pokemon you can use to do so now. I believe it takes away more from the metagame than it adds to it. Of course this is all conjecture, have to see how it actually plays out, of course. It's just initially this rubs me as pointing in a direction that I know I will enjoy less.
I believe skill/prediction/whatever will still be in this game, just in a way that is more similar to previously mentioned games like PBR. I recognize both variations of battling but I would prefer it to be only an OPTION.
The thing that I like least about this change is the loss of the factor of surprise. In PBR one could immediately spot if the opponent was running a weather, trick room, etc. team as well as common weaknesses amongst the team members. It's almost too easy.
A major part of Pokemon is the risk involved in it. Finding your opponents weakness while battling makes it both more exciting and creates a natural tension/suspense that makes battling more entertaining. I'm sure some of you have had at least one match where your strategy had to change in an instant because of an unexpected Pokemon showing up. This injects new life into the battle and makes it more unique and interesting. If that was taken away, battling just wouldn't be the same. It would be all pre-game strategy of with little thinking involved as the game progressed.
Personally, not my cup of tea.
The thing that I like least about this change is the loss of the factor of surprise. In PBR one could immediately spot if the opponent was running a weather, trick room, etc. team as well as common weaknesses amongst the team members. It's almost too easy.
A major part of Pokemon is the risk involved in it. Finding your opponents weakness while battling makes it both more exciting and creates a natural tension/suspense that makes battling more entertaining. I'm sure some of you have had at least one match where your strategy had to change in an instant because of an unexpected Pokemon showing up. This injects new life into the battle and makes it more unique and interesting. If that was taken away, battling just wouldn't be the same. It would be all pre-game strategy of with little thinking involved as the game progressed.
Personally, not my cup of tea.
This will be interesting, I think.
Yes, it means you can't hide your sweeper.
Yes, it means you don't need to scout and have a devoted lead.
However, it DOES mean that you may be forced to have 2 or more pokemon that can play as lead as needed while still maintaining their usability. Pokemon like Salamence will still be unpredictable, considering all the sets, so the info will be limited. I think this will mean pokemon team will need more flexibility, especially early in the game.
Yes, it means you can't hide your sweeper.
Yes, it means you don't need to scout and have a devoted lead.
However, it DOES mean that you may be forced to have 2 or more pokemon that can play as lead as needed while still maintaining their usability. Pokemon like Salamence will still be unpredictable, considering all the sets, so the info will be limited. I think this will mean pokemon team will need more flexibility, especially early in the game.
It's been confirmed by several sources that this mechanic will always be active for Wireless battles as well.
Forced flexibility. More things you have to do, limiting your options even further.
What's good about this, again?
This could definitely turn out to be a plus, rather than a negative. It will make strategies more complete instead of the "guess and check" approach we have currently.
Though the one thing that bothers me is that it takes away the element of surprise. I like knowing people don't see my Gyarados until it actually comes out.
But team's will likely change to compensate for this. Some leads will probably remain constant despite this addition to the DS games.
Though the one thing that bothers me is that it takes away the element of surprise. I like knowing people don't see my Gyarados until it actually comes out.
But team's will likely change to compensate for this. Some leads will probably remain constant despite this addition to the DS games.
New Pokémon revealed, many of which are highly specialized one-trick ponies:
Waaaah! This pokémon will break the game open because if it pops up when you aren't expecting it you lose!
A new feature is revealed, allowing you to see an opponent's team before the battle and providing an inherent boost to pokémon which may not be as directly strong as the one-trickers but offer a much wider variety in possible roles and movesets:
Waaaah! This forces you to use a very small number of pokémon!
You are not forced to be versatile at all. Building a high-powered and extremely obvious team gives you a number of advantages at the expense of being predictable. This predictability could end up losing you the match, but that's the risk you took. Seeing the teams before the match helps Pogeys that have a wider variety of options, which TEND to be the pogeys that fall shy of their more dedicated brethren. While we can't say until there is actual testing, there is no reason to assume that this is somehow going to decrease your options.
So much for zoroark, we'll always remember 3 days we thought you were a mindgame
*waves tissue*
Actually if you keep zoroark for last this could be a good reverse-psychology mindgame
*waves tissue*
Actually if you keep zoroark for last this could be a good reverse-psychology mindgame
As far as regarding online simulators, Pokemon Online currently has the option for you to Show Your Team or Hide It respectively. Now, neither of these options particularly represent how you play the actual metagame, and I hear nobody protesting against it - what people want is the heat of the battle itself, not knowing what comes next and acting accordingly.
If Smogon means to treat its Shoddy as a training ground for real battles, I suppose that's fine. I just hope that attitude doesn't spread to other places, where battling is done because it's fun and can be unpredictable. (I say unpredictable, but thanks to Smogon's "guides" we only ever fight the same thing. Seriously, enough with the guides, they make the metagame stagnant really fast)
If Smogon means to treat its Shoddy as a training ground for real battles, I suppose that's fine. I just hope that attitude doesn't spread to other places, where battling is done because it's fun and can be unpredictable. (I say unpredictable, but thanks to Smogon's "guides" we only ever fight the same thing. Seriously, enough with the guides, they make the metagame stagnant really fast)
I'm pretty sure there's a way to turn it off in Wireless/FC matches, there seem to be some new options for battles that I can't read on my copy.
Even if you know their team's pokemon, you don't know what their strategies and personality are; you don't know if they're a conservative player, making only the moves necessary to keep their team from being swept, or if they're a gutsy, confident player who constantly keeps the pressure on their opponent. Until you know their team's sets (which could still contain surprises) and their style of play, you can't try to predict their moves and expect to get much success. Although I personally dislike this change, if it has to occur, it won't change the game too much. Even in D/P, it was difficult to find hard counters for every set a sweeper could run; Lucario would often use Agility to KO the Gliscor that would otherwise put a full stop to the Swords Dance set, and Gyarados could easily use a Choice Band and Payback to OHKO the Rotom forme switching in, which would otherwise, again, put a full stop to many almost all other sets. The addition of this change, if truly the only way to play online, would not even decrease early-game conservative play to a substantial degree; although you know the team, you don't know the sets, and they could still wreck your team with an unexpected danger, i.e. Agility Lucario or CB Gyarados as mentioned above. This ability to form a possible plan against your enemy is even more negligible when considering a full stall team: although they utilize prediction, it could hardly be argued that they rely upon good prediction as much as a bulky offensive team, and most of their concern is dealing as much damage to the team as possible, through entry hazards and harmful status. If teams have the right support for their lead, as they should have in D/P, then even attempting to counter your opponent's lead won't work, as they will be able to buffer against the pokemon that threaten it. Seeing your opponent's team, although an unwelcome change, will not affect the battle as much as posters have said it will. Mostly what this change will require is people backing up their weaknesses better and having a team that can handle problems to their strategy, not just putting five random sweepers and a random lead on a team. In conclusion, although I personally don't like this change, as Kitten Bukkake has said, teams will simply need more flexibility to succeed.
So you prefer a metagame with crap like suicide leads running around, or do you prefer a metagame where pokemon have to be functional in more than just a single role? I'd say flexibility increases your options by definition.
Not really, if your pokemon has to fulfill "multiple roles", then surprise surprise, they only ever fill the same multiple roles. The only possible advantage I can see in prediction is using the most overused pokemon in different and creative ways to fool your opponent - and wow, it turns out they're just not as good as their regular roles, and have no capabilities to surprise anyone.
And if you're the sort of person who likes to surprise your opponent, having your opponent constantly know your pokemon makes the game tedious. AND considering all you seem to ever see is Azelf and Scizor, seeing them in every line-up before you actually battle sort of...takes all the fun away, "here we go again" people would say. I personally don't want to see the opponents team, as much as I don't want them to see mine.
Bullshit. If it is viable it is viable no matter what it requires, so long as what it requires isnt handed to your opponent on a platter at the start of each match.
This isnt necessarily about which pokemon become unusable, but it is more about whole strategies becoming unusable. There is just so much that simply wont work.. Like when countering strong CBers, you can use your opponents lack of knowledge of your team. If he has seen Salamence and Skarmory, your opponent's salamence will choose between outrage and fireblast. It would have been a perfect time to send Heatran.
There was an incredible turn in one of his WC matches, where Earthworm sent out his Skarm and for seemingly no reason selected brave bird and caught an unrevealed Breloom trying to switch in. This is why EW is the best at dp, but now this sort of thing cant happen..
In previous gens being able to more accurately deduce your opponents team would win you games. This is a key skill that separates the best players from the average players. And in bw it doesnt exist. They have changed one of the key aspects of the competitive game, its liker if baseball timed the average speed of all batters reaching each plate and just said "if you get the ball to the plate before that amount of time passes, its out".
All prediction is based around what your opponent knows. I am genuinely furious. Gamefreak have ruined this game, far more than Wobbuffet could ever hoped to have.
God.. I'm genuinely upset about this.. It's disgraceful. The answer may have to be blindfold matches I guess..
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The only reason you should be unable to work this out from your opponents team is if you are unsure of whether your opponent is a good player or a bad player. Style exists at a team stage, once a team is built, then what the best move is is determined by the situation. Guts or conservativeness are myths essentially. There is only right or wrong.
Have a nice day.
![Pit[y]Lord](/forums/data/avatars/m/61/61690.jpg?1384150735){kind=avatar}
Yeah hi. Long time lurker and player here. I decided to register finally cause I am genuinely interested in this change, and I find it astounding that people already make the 'It's ruined forever!" assumption.
Personally I like this change. I like changes in general since it let's us explore and experience new things. Even if the change is for the worse, a lesson can be learned from it anyway, wich will enrich further experience. Without change there is only stagnation.
I know I am only a beginner member, but please people, chill out and try to be open minded. It's a new game, with a whole bunch of new posibilities.
Personally I like this change. I like changes in general since it let's us explore and experience new things. Even if the change is for the worse, a lesson can be learned from it anyway, wich will enrich further experience. Without change there is only stagnation.
I know I am only a beginner member, but please people, chill out and try to be open minded. It's a new game, with a whole bunch of new posibilities.
I'm going to miss Gen 4 play now, scouting was my favorite part of the game so Gen 5 might take some time to get used to. What bugs me the most is the forced ruleset, why team hiding, a standard for many, couldn't be implemented even as the secondary battle type this time around. I wouldn't want team hiding to be in simulator play if we can't do it in game, but I'd much rather just have it in-game...
Why are people freaking out about this? I feel that if anything this makes Wi-Fi battles LESS luck-based. More information=less luck involved.
I do not see gimmick sets going anywhere. Your opponent knows your Pokemon, but not your movesets (as far as I know). I am thinking about throwing in a random Pokemon or two just to throw my opponent off, or just use something like a semi-stall team to make quick decisions.
I am looking forward to this style of play!
Edit: I like that this is for random Wi-Fi matches, because you have little clue about your opponent's tendencies. Unless it's REALLY obvious, of course. BTW, does anyone know about the clauses in effect regarding random battles? I would love to face 6 Brelooms! Also, can you see the level and gender of each opposing Pokemon?
Sorry if someone answered this already.
I do not see gimmick sets going anywhere. Your opponent knows your Pokemon, but not your movesets (as far as I know). I am thinking about throwing in a random Pokemon or two just to throw my opponent off, or just use something like a semi-stall team to make quick decisions.
I am looking forward to this style of play!
Edit: I like that this is for random Wi-Fi matches, because you have little clue about your opponent's tendencies. Unless it's REALLY obvious, of course. BTW, does anyone know about the clauses in effect regarding random battles? I would love to face 6 Brelooms! Also, can you see the level and gender of each opposing Pokemon?
Sorry if someone answered this already.