Haxorus

Yeah, I think one of the best uses for DD Ono is on hyper offense teams, to get a setup turn after another sweeper's been KOed. It gets that turn to setup, and if it comes in later, the opposing team's scarfers have been KOed or almost there, so bulkier sets have a purpose with those extra defensive EVs.
 
After playing around with it, I agree with the person who said its simply outclassed Salamence and Garchomp as boosters. He takes hits like a wet paper bag.
Rhyperior!
 
Ono doesn't have Rhyperior's special frailty and does have that useful Dragon typing allowing it to actually take a special hit once in a while.

Ono's advantage over Salamence and Garchomp is its amazing attack and Taunt, which is capitalized upon with the Swords Dance+Taunt set proposed earlier. Also, unlike Rhyperior, Ono is not being overhyped. If you would read the thread, Ono has several weaknesses hindering it, and everyone recognizes that. Its speed is too low to tie base 100s, and it's pretty frail. But its huge attack, usable speed (unlike Rhyperior), and access to Taunt makes it a potent wallbreaker.
 
cosmicexplorer said:
Ono doesn't have Rhyperior's special frailty and does have that useful Dragon typing allowing it to actually take a special hit once in a while.

Ono's advantage over Salamence and Garchomp is its amazing attack and Taunt, which is capitalized upon with the Swords Dance+Taunt set proposed earlier. Also, unlike Rhyperior, Ono is not being overhyped. If you would read the thread, Ono has several weaknesses hindering it, and everyone recognizes that. Its speed is too low to tie base 100s, and it's pretty frail. But its huge attack, usable speed (unlike Rhyperior), and access to Taunt makes it a potent wallbreaker.
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I feel like this point should just be.. omitted from every argument. Just admit it, if it had Fire Punch, Fire Blast, or even Fire Fang, it wouldn't be running Taunt. Taunt is just a mitigation for the lack of the aforementioned Fire moves, not a superior or equal move for a Dragon-type sweeper by any means (especially considering his below average defenses). +2 Outrage, Fire Fang, or Earthquake absolutely ravages anything you'd consider using Taunt on, OR you do enough damage either way that it doesn't really matter. Would Salamence consider Taunt (given its current movepool)? Garchomp? Dragonite, even? Some of those answers may be "yes," but remember each of them is more bulky than Ono.
 
Taunt allows Ono to setup on walls like Skarmory instead of having to attack and risk getting WWed out, or switching out, like SDChomp has to do. Also, considering Sturdy's upgrade, Skarm will always get at least one free turn before being KOed, so even DDMence can just get WWed out and take SR damage again. Taunt also lets Ono setup on and defeat Hippo. Taunt makes Ono a good switch into those walls, to setup, and it also means it can defeat them without risking getting phazed out.
 
Ono is very frail sp. def wise, but in terms of def. it has some bulk. Therefore, it not being able to take hits is incorrect. However, with taunt, i think that DD because with Ono's already high attack stat, SD would not be as beneficial as DD. DD allows Ono to outspeed base 100's.
 
I ran some damage calcs for Ononokusu's viability on setting up on walls if they decide to stay in.

This is just something for Ononokusu to keep in mind with below average defenses while setting up with Taunt in play. With such high attack a defensive Ononokusu is also viable.

252 Hp / 152 Def Hippo's Ice fang does 38% - 45% to Kusu
Earthquake does more damage with 52% Max

252 Hp / 64 Atk / 192 Def Skarmory does 51% Max with Bravebird

252 SpA CM Suicune OHKOs with one CM and without one does 87% max with Ice Beam
Crocune Only does 25% with Surf. Make sure you know what the set is, obviously.

28 Atk Dusknoir does 49% max with Ice Punch

Curselax does 44% Max with Body Slam and no boosts, and it does 65% Max with one Curse already in.


Ononokusu will get 1 boost wither the opponent switches or stays in. 2 max if the opposing wall does something silly.
 
@Prownage89: SD lets him plow through Skarmory and any other physical walls he might find, while DD doesn't. DD lets him play better against more offensive teams, because he doesn't need the extra attack there and his speed is boosted, and SD lets Ono break through stall.

@Kizzy: And if Ono uses Leftovers on an SD set (although Life Orb is probably the best item), it can recover some HP from that and take another weak hit.
 
cosmicexplorer said:
Taunt allows Ono to setup on walls like Skarmory instead of having to attack and risk getting WWed out, or switching out, like SDChomp has to do. Also, considering Sturdy's upgrade, Skarm will always get at least one free turn before being KOed, so even DDMence can just get WWed out and take SR damage again. Taunt also lets Ono setup on and defeat Hippo. Taunt makes Ono a good switch into those walls, to setup, and it also means it can defeat them without risking getting phazed out.
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Skarmory was never a good counter to Garchomp and Salamence, even SDChomp and DDMence could chew through Skarmory thanks to Flamethrower/Fire Blast. I don't know why you'd think Taunt would matter. Bulky Gyarados is the only one who wants Taunt against Skarmory, since it lacks a move to 2HKO it and has Intimidate to tank Brave Bird. I'm pretty sure Ono will not like STAB Brave Birds.
 
Thanks to Sturdy, Skarm can still WW Mence away, and Chomp still only 2HKOed with Fire Fang, so it could also be phazed out. Also, neither could OHKO Hippowdon or Cresselia and would get phazed out. Ono can OHKO both of them after a SD or two DDs with Outrage, but it can Taunt them to stop them from just phazing it or statusing it as it boosts. So Taunt does give it an advantage. However, it mostly helps with Skarm, as it allows Ono to safely 2HKO it without getting phazed out.
 
Of course thats true, but against Stall I still think C'homp is better because you cant get paralyzed and youve got much more bulk.

Skarmory is a problem, because you cant KO it, but without Shed Shell you can kill it easily, and after Skarm is al ittle Bit weakened you kan easily kill it.

AN other Advantage for Garchomp is STAB on Earthquake, and the better Speed, because with the two 99-Speed Pokes, so many 100-Base Speed Pokes 102 Base Speed, is a big advantage.

Yache-Chomp will easily get on Sd and Scarm will lose many Hps, and the Sand-Veil Haxxer will be a big thread, too

But who knows, The monstrues Attack and hihs lack of a 4X-Weak could make the difference, too
 
cosmicexplorer said:
Taunt allows Ono to setup on walls like Skarmory instead of having to attack and risk getting WWed out, or switching out, like SDChomp has to do. Also, considering Sturdy's upgrade, Skarm will always get at least one free turn before being KOed, so even DDMence can just get WWed out and take SR damage again. Taunt also lets Ono setup on and defeat Hippo. Taunt makes Ono a good switch into those walls, to setup, and it also means it can defeat them without risking getting phazed out.
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You're acting like a Salamence at 50% health is completely worthless, compared to a Skarmory at 1 HP. Cool, Skarmory phazes away Salamence. It's now left vulnerable to virtually anything other than a wall that switches in. Next time, it is dead due to Stealth Rock. Hippo is nearly OHKOed by +2 Outrage, and DD Outrage easily 2HKOs. If it wants to Roar you away, then much like Skarmory, it is left extremely vulnerable (+1 Outrage followed by Lucario's Close Combat KO's, for example). What if Hippowdon attacks instead of uses Roar? 52% + sandstorm to cancel Lefties = 2HKO, and you don't get your second attack off. I have no idea how Ononokusu is a "good" switch into Skarmory, considering the calculations in the following quote and the fact that an intelligent player *should* know to attack Ono straight up.

Kizzy said:
I ran some damage calcs for Ononokusu's viability on setting up on walls if they decide to stay in.

This is just something for Ononokusu to keep in mind with below average defenses while setting up with Taunt in play. With such high attack a defensive Ononokusu is also viable.

252 Hp / 152 Def Hippo's Ice fang does 38% - 45% to Kusu
Earthquake does more damage with 52% Max

252 Hp / 64 Atk / 192 Def Skarmory does 51% Max with Bravebird

252 SpA CM Suicune OHKOs with one CM and without one does 87% max with Ice Beam
Crocune Only does 25% with Surf. Make sure you know what the set is, obviously.

28 Atk Dusknoir does 49% max with Ice Punch

Curselax does 44% Max with Body Slam and no boosts, and it does 65% Max with one Curse already in.


Ononokusu will get 1 boost wither the opponent switches or stays in. 2 max if the opposing wall does something silly.
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So Hippowdon is 2HKOing with Earthquake, considering Sandstream nullifies Leftover recovery. If you try to Taunt it, you just wasted your time. Skarmory also 2HKOs with Brave Bird + Sandstorm, or Stealth Rock w/out Sand. Suicune is probably going to run Boiling Water, and the chance of being burned or Ice Beamed to death is too high. Dusknoir 2HKOs with Stealth Rock + Sandstorm. Curselax might paralyze you, and it does enough with 2 Body Slams to KO with Stealth Rock + Sandstorm. This all assumes Leftovers on Ono, which means you miss out on possible KOs with Life Orb. He's not bulky, stop trying to pass him off as such. The only advantage he has is not being 4x weak to Ice, and even then investing in bulk just to avoid the occasional Weavile or Mamoswine seems pointless.
 
cosmicexplorer said:
Thanks to Sturdy, Skarm can still WW Mence away, and Chomp still only 2HKOed with Fire Fang, so it could also be phazed out.
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Not if Stealth Rock is in play.

Anyway, there seems to be confusion on whether Skarm switches into the dragons or the dragons switching into Skarm or other walls. Naturally you don't switch SDChomp or DDMence into Skarm or Cresselia, since they're not wall breakers, but you seem to think Ono is able to switch into common walls and break them with Taunt, which it can't. Mono Dragon is just too poor of a defensive type.

If you're implying that Skarmory is able to switch into a SDChomp and DDMence, it will risk getting 2HKO'd or at the very least severely crippled. Ono on the other hand can't do a whole lot. Yes, it can Taunt, but if Skarmory chooses Brave Bird, it'll probably lose the battle.
 
Okay, I was being kind of dumb saying Skarmory could take on Salamence. Sorry. But Taunt is an advantage Ono has over SDChomp, in that it allows Ono to KO Skarm without getting phazed, while Chompy has to Fire Fang and get switched out. This is assuming Skarmory switches in as it stats up.

Also, I was wrong with my earlier post, about Ono setting up on walls. It can't switch in directly, obviously. I don't quite know what I was saying, so thanks for catching me on that. Taunt really only helps with Skarmory, so that it can KO it without risking being phazed out, as Ono OHKOs all the other physical walls with Outrage or Earthquake. My point about Mence was assuming Hippo switches in as it DDs.

My posts about this were generally incoherent and kind of dumb, and I apologize for that. You're both right, that Taunt doesn't automatically make Ono a wall-breaking machine, and I wasn't trying to pass it off as such. It helps against Skarmory, which Ono can already 2HKO with Outrage. I'm sorry for acting dumb and thank you for telling me.
 
blasphemy1 said:
So Hippowdon is 2HKOing with Earthquake, considering Sandstream nullifies Leftover recovery. If you try to Taunt it, you just wasted your time. Skarmory also 2HKOs with Brave Bird + Sandstorm, or Stealth Rock w/out Sand. Suicune is probably going to run Boiling Water, and the chance of being burned or Ice Beamed to death is too high. Dusknoir 2HKOs with Stealth Rock + Sandstorm. Curselax might paralyze you, and it does enough with 2 Body Slams to KO with Stealth Rock + Sandstorm. This all assumes Leftovers on Ono, which means you miss out on possible KOs with Life Orb. He's not bulky, stop trying to pass him off as such. The only advantage he has is not being 4x weak to Ice, and even then investing in bulk just to avoid the occasional Weavile or Mamoswine seems pointless.
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Ono, thanks to its defenses, will only be switching into obvious resisted attacks, or coming in to revenge. Who would readily switch him into Suicune, at the chance of eating an Ice Beam, unless, Cune is nearly dead? On the other hand, Suicune can't switch into Ono, thanks to the threat of a +2 Outrage, and not being able to OHKO with Ice Beam.

Your calculations are nearly pointless, as are people claiming Ono is a wall breaker because of Taunt.
 
EvilMario said:
Ono, thanks to its defenses, will only be switching into obvious resisted attacks, or coming in to revenge. Who would readily switch him into Suicune, at the chance of eating an Ice Beam, unless, Cune is nearly dead? On the other hand, Suicune can't switch into Ono, thanks to the threat of a +2 Outrage, and not being able to OHKO with Ice Beam.

Your calculations are nearly pointless, as are people claiming Ono is a wall breaker because of Taunt.
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I was replying to the idea of Ono being able to switch into walls... none of which it can. There's literally not a single wall it can switch into, hell, it can't switch into a single Pokemon in the current OU metagame.
 
Look, Taunt's helpful. He doesn't have fire moves, that's unhelpful. He's mono-Dragon, and his attack is friggin' massive. Can we just stop comparing him to 'Mence and 'Nite and try to see what he can actually do? I'm seeing him as a DD sweeper, but he'd have to come in after a KO. Not ideal, but also not impossible. Also, he might do better in Doubles and Triples than in Singles, although that's just a thought.
 
cosmicexplorer said:
..But Taunt is an advantage Ono has over SDChomp, in that it allows Ono to KO Skarm without getting phazed.. Also, I was wrong with my earlier post, about Ono setting up on walls.. My posts about this were generally incoherent and kind of dumb, and I apologize for that.. I'm sorry for acting dumb and thank you for telling me.
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Heyhey chill a little.

You are right about Taunt being one distinguishing factor between Ononokusu and its Dragon brethren. Problem lies in its lack of bulk which means walls are still able to beat it even after their status, phazing or recovery options are blocked - unlike Taunt DDTar setting up on Skarmory or BulkyGyara setting up on Swampert, Ononokusu is getting 2HKOed too often.

I agree with posters on the previous page that SD helps break stall even better than Taunt. Having access to both SD and DD works in Ononokusu's favour since if you bring in a Hippowdon to stall out and phaze a Dragon Dancer and get met by a Swords Dance instead..

But honestly, I feel Ononokusu is outclassed by Garchomp and Salamence. Speed is the key and base 147 Atk is just overkill when you're getting outsped by ScarfGon/ScarfRachi. It also doesn't have the versatility to go mixed unlike Salamence or Sazandora and not having a Fire attack anywhere in its movepool to somewhat deal with Nattorei and Skarmory is the final nail in the coffin=(
 
I think that the attack creep from the 3rd generation just reached its climax. I mean, the metagame that controlfreak has been forming is like a pinata, and they started hitting it in 4th gen. I think that the candy just came out. If this thing can actually live up to its expectations unlike some others (I'm looking at you Porygon-Z) Then we got ourselves a mean lean sweeping machine. If only this thing had a decent special attack...
 
@Scicky: You're right, Rhyperior's overall special defensiveness is better than Ono's, but Rhyperior's defensive typing is absolutely atrocious.

@Shimrit As: Ono can OHKO Hippowdon after boosting, while Garchomp and Salamence cannot. That alone should be enough to stop it from being outclassed. If Ono is being used as a wallbreaker, then the 100 base speed benchmark doesn't apply to it, since most walls don't invest in speed and with max speed Ono outspeeds the majority of those that do. Although Chompy and Mence are far better at sweeping, they are not as good at pure wallbreaking as Ono is. In fact, a strategy involving both, with Ono breaking walls stopping Mence/Chomp, and the other dragon of choice sweeping afterward is perfectly viable because of Ono's huge power. Ono's incredible attack allows it to break through walls like Hippo and Suicune in one shot, unlike Mence and Chomp. That's why it's not outclassed.
 
So with my experience so far with the 5th gen metagame on wifi, and PO Testing, Ono works great.

Most common set I ran was the Bulky DD Ono's, which either got atleast 2 KO's for me, or Swept the remaining team. The Min/Max sets didn't do so hot, even the Ono's that I fought, as they either were getting 1 KO, or none at all (unless it was around late game when the other team only had 1 or 2 pokes left that DIDN'T hit it like a ton of bricks).

Choice Band worked great, especially when I partnered it with my SD chomp for awhile. It hits REALLY hard with that choiced set. Hard enough to cause massive wearing down of the opposite team.

SD Ono sets worked as it was discussed (for the most part), with breaking through several walls before breathing it's last breathe. Which is good because it did it's job. It can be a great asset to alot of teams.

Special attacks were somewhat common, so Ono wasn't too happy in some situations, but when I played him by his strengths, it wasn't hard at all for him to get in and do the job he was expected of to do. I eventually focused on a single team with him as the premier sweeper, and in some cases, either did fine with or without his sweep. Never was he dead weight though as he was used even when not under a dragon dance, and hit just as hard, and fast enough to get around some walls that would switch in.
 
Which nature for the Choice Band did you use? I'm planning to use CB Ono but I don't know which nature I should choose.
 
Adamant Nature worked great, as it usually hit harder then what most would have wanted it to hit for. Running max attack for the huge attack margin that gets up to 648, and the max speed was enough to keep it from being outsped by too many things. Jolly can work too, as it'll actually result in a much faster Ono that still retains most of it's massive attack. I preferred Jolly the most though.


Also, forgot to mention that screen support also works wonders for him. With screen support, the less bulky Ono actually lives and did just as well as the bulky sets.
 
blasphemy1 said:
I was replying to the idea of Ono being able to switch into walls... none of which it can. There's literally not a single wall it can switch into, hell, it can't switch into a single Pokemon in the current OU metagame.
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Bulky Water types are incredibly easy to switch into, for one. "Ice Beam this, Ice Beam that" but really, how many bulky Water types have you seen blindly use Ice Beam on the switch-in right off the bat? None of them, because that's a dumb idea when they're up against Infernape, Gyarados, or something else they need to stop right away.

Suicune is usually goinna Surf or CM, and bulkier sets will do shit for damage with Ice Beam. Vappy usually doesn't have any room for Ice Beam at all, but even if it did, you can bet it's going to be using Surf or Wish most of the time.

Matter of fact, if you have a Lum Berry, you're free to switch in on almost any wall without giving a shit. After all, what's Celebi gonna do to you? Twave? Grass Knot? Leaf Storm? lol. Set up on its ass.

Also, 76/90/70 are not frail defenses. Even if they aren't amazing on the level of Garchomp, Latias, and friends, they're still a prettier sight than premier OU sweepers like Infernape or Lucario, and unlike Infernape, it actually has a number of useful resistances it can come in on. Either way, I think we can count on it to take a hit or two while it's dishing out punishment.
 
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