However, only Roopbushin can actually make use of it due to Iron Fist.
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Snorlax
- Thread starter ensoriki
- Start date
However, only Roopbushin can actually make use of it due to Iron Fist.
They can all make use of it, it's just the others have High Jump Kick or Close Combat instead. Roopushin doesn't have another reliable STAB to use.
Not true at all, Zuzu is extremely bulky and can set up bulk ups with ease then kick some azz, Kojondo won't be using it with it's"wonderful" defences. Gallade...I wouldn't know, in 4th gen My gallades died to everything...But he's pretty strong anyway...
I do like snorlax but his job is way to easily taken down.
Belly drum setup is needed with lum due to Mischievous heart.
Belly drum setup is needed with lum due to Mischievous heart.
Lum ain't gonna save you from Mischevious Heart Encore.
Drain Punch, both in effect and base power, is a Fighting-type Giga Drain. And yet how many Grass-types do you expect to use Giga Drain?
Granted that Grass is a poor attacking type, but Drain Punch is now on par with Brick Break. But how many Fighting-types run Brick Break over SuperPower/Close Combat/High Jump Kick or some other move? Not many, simply due to the relatively low base power.
I'm not saying that Drain Punch is a bad move, but I'm saying that anything with a stronger move will most certainly pick it, regardless of the healing powers of Drain Punch.
But it doesn't matter, because any Fighting move can prove fatal to Snorlax, not just Drain Punch.
I use Giga Drain on my Nasty Plot Celebi, because it lacks other healing and it's more reliable than Grass Knot.
Other users include special Venusaur and Sceptile (althought they can both use Leaf Storm).
Other users include special Venusaur and Sceptile (althought they can both use Leaf Storm).
Celebi has Recover..... Venusaur and Sceptile have Synthesis.....
The extra healing is arguably useless to all three of them. Unless you're running a very offensive set with no room for a recovery move.
CM Shandera is a rarity and hard to pull off effectively, so I'm not worried about that. More importantly, CB gives Snorlax the power to hurt non-Shandera switch-ins as well as ensure the KO on sweeper types with your STAB. And let's not forget that after Shandera has killed something else on your team, Snorlax can still pick it off with Pursuit.
That's actually one of the best reasons to use it: you don't want Tyranitar on your team, but you still want to get rid of Shandera. Well, now you have Snorlax, something Shandera can't even scratch, and now in addition, can't switch out of safely. If you switch a Shed Shell Forry/Nat/Brozong out of Overheat and into Lax, it's practically dead then and there.
Yeah, you're kind of missing my point: Roopushin is not just another Fighting type, it's currently one of the biggest threats in Gen 5. You're probably going to see it on every third team, if not more. Curselax is a complete liability against it.
In addition to that, there's Erufuun, who's not quite as ubiquitous, but is really a death sentence for something that requires so much setup to use effectively. There's also Ditto, something of a nemesis to any setup sweeper. No explanation required there.
The main difference between Curselax and CBLax is that Curselax requires support in order to be used effectively while CBLax supports you. You can threaten to KO Special attackers right away without having to set up or losing momentum on an offensive team. Even better when that Special Attacker might be able to 2HKO you with Focus Blast (Gengar, Lucario, etc.) and Snorlax was really your bankshot on taking it out.
Personally, I don't think it's his best set anymore because with all of Gen 5's new Fighting types and anti-setup supporters, it's more of a liability to set up than it is to use his power and bulk to threaten and kill things right away. There are a lot more strong special attackters too that can just revenge you for all the effort you put into setting him up. For instance, I wonder how Snorlax takes a Specs Hydro Pump from Kingdra or Politoed in Rain.
Fighting types aren't Snorlax's sole problem anymore; the metagame got stronger and he didn't. In order to keep up, he needs an ace in the hole. He has all the right stats and utility for a CB set, and after seeing a couple of other players besides myself run it, I think people are starting to agree...
There's always other options Snorlax can take, and he does have a nice movepool; I once ran a Whirlwind/Curse/Rest/Return Snorlax in Gen IV and it worked fantastically despite the lack of coverage since it could just phaze out anything it couldn't handle. Although I don't think that's going to work in Gen V - Snorlax's big problem is that there's a whole bunch of new slow-but-powerful fighting-types, and all of them are still faster than Snorlax.
Roobushin, Terrakion, and Kojondo use will certainly present a problem for Snorlax in 5th gen, Especially Terrakion, because he can use Sacred Sword and cut straight through any curse Def boosts
Good points. I actually see a reason to maybe use a CBlax.
The only thing is that Snorlax could curse up against the Shanderaa too. Which would make it a massive pain in the rear for whatever came in next.
CBlax could have its uses, but I am trying to get across the point that Curselax is still a beast.
And Heatran was the top used Pokemon at the end of DP, but Scizor was still used. And even though Swampert and Blissey were both around to wall Heatran it still stayed on top. One Pokemon being around doesn't constitute not using a very viable set. Also I only see Roopushin every 7 teams or so. Scouting and good team work make Curselax a massive force to be reckoned with.
Of course that means that you can't just throw it into any old team and expect it to do well. It does require team support.
The thing about Curselax is that it doesn't require as much set up as most people think. After 1 Curse it is hitting hard, taking 70%+ out of Erufuun's that I have faced.
I already adressed the Ditto issue in my post with my current Curselax setup. Easy answer is that Ditto just doesn't have enough health to take on Snorlax. Curse ups you defenses along with your attack meaning that even though Ditto could come in and you be at +4 it won't do much more then a +2 or +0, cause your defenses were buffed at the same time. And since your health is higher and you are not locked into a move with only 5 PP you will almost always win against Dittos with Curselax.
Timid 252 Gengar holding life orb does 45.4% - 53.4%. A 2HKO while Snorlax OHKO's back with Crunch (Better option over pursuit on Curselax). Staying in against a Lucario is suicide, as it is one of the best mixed attackers out there, and it is a fighting/steel type, which walls your STAB and hits you for Super Effective.
Snorlax still threatens to OHKO most Special Attackers even without the CB boost.
I haven't faced any Choice Kingdra or Politoed but I ran the calcs.* Kingdra - 44.8% - 52.9%, Politoed - 50% - 59%.* Wow, those did more then I thought they would.* That was against my set that I posted earlier. Though I haven't seen any choice variants of those Pokemon I will admit that is rather strong.
*I also ran those against a Standard WishBliss and they obtained similar results (Take away about 3% from those Calcs). Final call, no Special Wall will be able to wall those things.
The Metagame hasn't necessarily gotten stronger, just more diverse. It gives Curselax a lot of competition for a team spot, and that is probably what will hold it back.
Alright heres my CB snorlax setup.
Adamant
252 hp /252 attack/4 sp.def
Return
Shadow claw/fire punch
EQ
Pursuit
Adamant
252 hp /252 attack/4 sp.def
Return
Shadow claw/fire punch
EQ
Pursuit
Those calculations are incorrect, or you're using a spread no one uses for Snorlax. 188/216+ Snorlax takes 48% - 56.7% from Timid Specs Kingdra's Hydro Pump in the rain. Something else you should worry about is Omastar, which does 104.5% - 123% after a Shell Break with Hydro Pump, or 60.2% - 70.9% with Specs. Snorlax doesn't stand a chance against Rain sweepers. Then again, really nothing can take a Hydro Pump from Omastar.
I posted my Snorlax set on the last page. That is the set I run and the set I ran the Calcs with.
Comments in Bold.
The format of the text matches the comment that I'm responding to.
I've seen Venusaur run Giga Drain once or twice all of GenIV, and I don't see why it would change this Gen. I can't talk about the other two, because I know so little about them. But almost any Grass-type would use Energy Ball as a better attacking move, or Synthesis (if they get it) as a better healing move. Giga Drain is a middle man, so to speak.
You're right about Bulk Up users, but the *relative* scarcity that you would see them last Gen indicate that they aren't a metagame-changing force that everyone needs to prepare for. They can be dealt with in many of the same ways as other boosters. Also, any stat up move that isn't +2 or +1/+1speed is going to find it tough to fit in this Gen. Those, I predict, will be somewhat uncommon. But that's not the point in dispute. I suppose you're correct about Bulk Up users.
Brute Force can be better when you've got a single check to one threat, but need to OHKO it to prevent it from sweeping your team. Granted that it's a poor example, and that a well-built team shouldn't have that problem, but staying power won't matter if they set up on your (arguably) weak attacks and then KO you. Or against dedicated walls who could heal off the damage Drain Punch does. You can't say that staying power>brute force. Again, I'm not saying "Survivability is bad", I'm saying it's not the best on offensive 'mons, and not the best on defensive 'mons (if they already have recovery).
Thank you for agreeing with me.
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Does it really matter who wins this argument? Does it change anything for good ol' Snorlax?
Snorlax can't use U-turn and were it not for Heatran and the million other things that walled Scizor, SD probably would have been his preferred set. But it wasn't, it was CB. Without U-turn to carry the day, Scizor would have been chillin' right down in mid-low OU along with Snorlax, the same way he was pre-Plat.
Swampert checked Heatran, but he didn't wall him. Non-scarfed sets could easily find room for HP Grass and Swampert would be dead before you know it. Bliss couldn't do much of anything vs. TormenTran, trapper sets, any set with Taunt, etc.
These are not viable comparisons to Roopushin vs. Snorlax because Roopushin is much stronger and more threatening than any of the aforementioned Pokemon. Imagine Machamp with more bulk, attack power, Drain Punch, and Mach Punch. If that doesn't scare you, then I'll probably need to borrow those balls of steel sometime. By 4th gen standards, he could have very well been Uber. You are giving this very same Pokemon a free setup with your own setup sweeper.
But don't get me wrong; I'm not touting Roopushin as the only reason not to run Curselax (even if it's a very big incentive), it's just that this, combined with all of the changes in Gen 5, is proving unfavorable to his then-standard set. Considering his usage and effectiveness in Gen 4 were already middling, things are looking grim for Curselax.
Thing is, Ditto is a revenger. The circumstances in which he comes in are completely up to user. With the right opening, he could finish you off with his own Body Slam and go to town on the team. There really isn't a surefire way to prevent this from happening.
We're seeing way more 120+ offenses this gen than we ever have before with very few viable new defensive Pokemon to stop them. You don't call that stronger? It's already telling that the metagame is offensive as it is. I've run into maybe two or three stall teams in the past month. Everything else? Pure offense.
Curselax didn't stand the test of time, but that was to be expected. He was way more potent back in 2nd and 3rd Gen when barely anything could touch him. Now that we have Close Combats, Roopushin, and the like flying everywhere, there's simply no way he can function anywhere close to as well as he used to.
Because it got a 15 point increase in BP? Just like Drain Punch?SlimMan said:
Just making sure you're aware, that's why it's much more likely to be seen this Gen. GD for example is better than Energy Ball in MANY cases now, due to only 5 BP difference and healing.
All in all, Drain Punch will be out there for Snorlax to consider.
75 base power moves were hardly used last Gen. The increase in power does increase healing, but not by much. The added power doesn't make it the Fighting move of choice, IMO.
Read my earlier posts. I'm aware.
When I said Energy Ball, I was referring to last Gen. Giga Drain probably does outclass Energy Ball now. But not back then.
We're not arguing that Drain Punch threatens Snorlax. We're arguing....... I think it's about the viability of Drain Punch, but I'm not sure.
I would agree for it not being the Fighting move of choice, except for maybe bulky guys like Zuruzukin. Sorry, I didn't catch your mention of the 75 BP change. Agreed on Drain/Ball, but that's not this thread.
As you pointed out, largely pointless argument is largely pointless. Back to Snorlax.
As you pointed out, largely pointless argument is largely pointless. Back to Snorlax.
You don't. They come in on Curse or Belly Drum.
Ditto does not hurt Curselax. It's +6 body Slam would deal 25.4% - 30% to the set I listed earlier. Then Snorlax deals 44.3% - 52.3% back. The difference in HP is just too great for Ditto to overcome.
In other words, Ditto is completely incapable of Revenging Curselax.
Machamp was really scary because of the 100% Confusion +100 BP STAB move that always hit. Roopushin has its niche as a Bulky fighting pokemon but it would have never gotten near Uber. And in terms of bulk Machamp is actually almost as bulky as Roo'.
Curselax is a late game ender. Once the Fighting Pokemon are gone it can come in and set up with impunity.
Rampardos sports a HUGE base 165 Atk stat, higher then anything else except Deoxys-A, yet it didn't change the metagame. Rhyperior, Magmortar, Electivire, Mamoswine, Gallade, Azelf, Honchcrow, Darkrai, Porygon-Z, Heatran, Glaceon, Magnezone, and Roserade all sport higher then 120 in at least one of the attacking stats and they were all introduced last gen. High attack power is nothing new and has been seen before.
Like I said the biggest thing that was introduced was Diversity. Now you have a large Variety of pokemon to choose from to do a job. Want a wall in Gen IV - go Skarmory, now Nattorie is around to add more diversity there. Want a Mixed attacker - Salamence or Lucario, Now we have Sazandora, Voltolos, and Landlos to add to that list.
Curselax's biggest downfall was the fact that you couldn't just start setting up at the beginning of the match and win anymore. Now it requires team support and good playing to make the most of it. Just look at the highest used Pokes of last Gen, they all were just throw in and go pokes, like what Curselax was in Gen 3. Now with the new threats they aren't all throw and go, you have to use your team to survive. Curselax is still a monster, just not the only monster around anymore.
And those balls of steel aren't available at the moment.