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Snorlax

In other words, Ditto is completely incapable of Revenging Curselax.
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No, you just told me he revenges Snorlax at 25.4% - 30%. That's not pathetically low or anything, that's just two turns of laughing at Close Combats or strong special attacks, then Ditto coming in and ruining your team at +6. Theoretically, at least.

Curselax is a late game ender. Once the Fighting Pokemon are gone it can come in and set up with impunity
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Even if that's the case, if I still have a setup sweeper, you're not setting up with impunity. I can still SD or DD, take a big chunk out of you, and make you easier to revenge. Or if I have a Fighting type move, just OHKO. Don't forget about Trick either. Expect to see a lot of this before you really start to do any damage.

Roopushin has its niche as a Bulky fighting pokemon but it would have never gotten near Uber.
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Try "very bulky setup sweeper with very high Attack power, a lack of common weaknesses, STAB Mach Punch, and STAB Drain Punch". That's a huge niche; sounds like something I'd want on every team.

Speaking of which, that's another thorn in the side for Curselax; Roopushin is undoubtedly the better bulky setup sweeper. Using Curselax and Bulk Up and Roopushin on the same team is impractical, so you're looking at an obvious opportunity cost.

Rampardos sports a HUGE base 165 Atk stat, higher then anything else except Deoxys-A, yet it didn't change the metagame. Rhyperior, Magmortar, Electivire, Mamoswine, Gallade, Azelf, Honchcrow, Darkrai, Porygon-Z, Heatran, Glaceon, Magnezone, and Roserade all sport higher then 120 in at least one of the attacking stats and they were all introduced last gen. High attack power is nothing new and has been seen before.
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It's not about the stat itself, just the fact that there are more of them, and more viable ones at that. The power scale this gen is higher, where 120 is about average. We haven't even scratched weather and new offensive abilities. Even with Gen 4 being as powerful as it was, Gen 5 still manages to up the ante. Snorlax is much, much easier to overwhelm this time around.

You can't just say "lolol Curse after Fighting types are gone, gg". You will need MORE support for Curselax than ever before, and now that we have better bulky setup sweepers and better sweepers in general, it's probably not going to be worth the effort at the end of the day. Choice Band doesn't need setup and still abuses Snorlax's power and tanking ability. He doesn't need to sweep to be effective.
 
Byrn Dragonstone said:
Rampardos sports a HUGE base 165 Atk stat, higher then anything else except Deoxys-A, yet it didn't change the metagame. Rhyperior, Magmortar, Electivire, Mamoswine, Gallade, Azelf, Honchcrow, Darkrai, Porygon-Z, Heatran, Glaceon, Magnezone, and Roserade all sport higher then 120 in at least one of the attacking stats and they were all introduced last gen. High attack power is nothing new and has been seen before.

Like I said the biggest thing that was introduced was Diversity. Now you have a large Variety of pokemon to choose from to do a job. Want a wall in Gen IV - go Skarmory, now Nattorie is around to add more diversity there. Want a Mixed attacker - Salamence or Lucario, Now we have Sazandora, Voltolos, and Landlos to add to that list.

Curselax's biggest downfall was the fact that you couldn't just start setting up at the beginning of the match and win anymore. Now it requires team support and good playing to make the most of it. Just look at the highest used Pokes of last Gen, they all were just throw in and go pokes, like what Curselax was in Gen 3. Now with the new threats they aren't all throw and go, you have to use your team to survive. Curselax is still a monster, just not the only monster around anymore.

And those balls of steel aren't available at the moment.
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All of those threats listed have serious problems that hamper their success.

Rampardos comes with significant drawbacks, including its low speed and meager defensive stats.

Rhyperior and Magmortar will not be sweeping anytime soon due to their low speed and extremely common weaknesses, not to mention the Stealth Rock weakness on the latter.

Lol Electivire.

I'm not going to continue to count of the issues the last few have (as they are mostly summed up by frailty, lack of speed, or poor offensive options), but several of them DID linger around low-OU.

The difference in Gen 5 is the introduction of a plethora of offensive threats that are both extremely threatening and have few new defensive threats to counterbalance them.

Sazandora is basically OUs Palkia, sporting many more resistances and the same perfect coverage. Roohpushin has the highest attack of all fighting types, with bulk and priority to boot. Terakion sports the same great neutral coverage that Rhyperior has and adds speed to the mix, while retaining decent bulk. Kerudio combines high speed with great offensive and defensive typing, while Doryuuzu would have shattered the offensive characteristic with ease last gen (because really, what 5th gen defensive threats deal with it better than what we already had?).

The power level has increased; Curselax has been decreasing in viability ever since the days of GSC, but that isn't necessarily its fault. Defense in general has taken a large hit; Crocune fell from its pedestal in the transition from Gen 3 to 4, physical Pursuit became a thorn in Celebi's side. Then of course the addition of LO tilted the balance in offense's favor...single-turn setups have been more and more attractive since the beginning of Gen 4, this is just a continuation of that.
 
No, you just told me he revenges Snorlax at 25.4% - 30%. That's not pathetically low or anything, that's just two turns of laughing at Close Combats or strong special attacks, then Ditto coming in and ruining your team at +6. Theoretically, at least.
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Lol what? So now revenge killers can only deal 25.4% - 30%. Remember that that is even coming off of over a 1000 attack. What other pokemon in the game will deal enough to scratch curselax more then that? Remember that Curselax also sports Rest, which will heal him up to full health. You are talking 2-3-4 Revenge killers to put Snorlax into Ditto's KO range just to have it rest up when you come in.

A Revenge killer is someone who comes in and eliminates the threat, Ditto fails to do that to Snorlax. Having over double its HP might have something to do with why Curselax was so good....

And if Curselax is so easy to kill then a Ditto would be even easier.

Even if that's the case, if I still have a setup sweeper, you're not setting up with impunity. I can still SD or DD, take a big chunk out of you, and make you easier to revenge. Or if I have a Fighting type move, just OHKO. Don't forget about Trick either. Expect to see a lot of this before you really start to do any damage.
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Unless it is another Curser you are pretty screwed. Curselax raises defenses at the same time as its attack, making killing it harder everytime you switch or miss, or even attack. It isn't like most other Set up sweepers, Salamence was easily revenged by Ice moves yet it still dominated last Gen. Snorlax isn't easy to revenge.

Heck even Roopushin Can be killed by Curselax if it gets along far enough. It takes around 30% just from switching into a unboosted Body Slam, add in a couple boosts and it will really start to hurt.

Since this isn't the thread about Roopushin I'm not going to put my full thoughts on his niche up here. Needless to say that it is a lot easier to revenge it then a Curselax.

This metagame looks to be faster, but not stronger.

Rhyperior and Magmortar will not be sweeping anytime soon due to their low speed and extremely common weaknesses
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This comment could actually be said of the entire new list of Pokemon. Earthquake just became all that more useful, as it hits pretty much every new pokemon for SE damage.

Doryuuzu would have shattered the offensive characteristic with ease last gen
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Actually it wouldn't have done anything last Gen as it lacked Sand Throw, which is basically the only reason it is a threat. Granted 135 base attack is nothing to laugh at but the double speed it what makes it so good.

The difference in Gen 5 is the introduction of a plethora of offensive threats that are both extremely threatening and have few new defensive threats to counterbalance them.
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Wow. What about Nattorie? it resists pretty much anything Dory could throw at it, the Pokemon that is considered almost too strong for the Metagame. Iwaparesu, Nageki, Gigaiath, Rankurusu, Morobareru, Burungeru, and Barujiina are all significantly bulky. Honestly we have no clue what path the Metagame will take, right not everyone is just excited to use all the new powerful pokes and a lot of the really good ones are getting overlooked.
 
What set? I love Snorlax as much as the next but I don't see him faring so well. He really should have gotten Slack Off, as usual. Curselax just doesn't have the coverage or raw power to dominate. Assuming Curse and Rest that only really leaves a STAB and something like Crunch/Fire Punch/EQ. Not to mention the Fighting weakness. Scrafty might have that but at least it has ShedRest or Drain Punch. The Bandset would probably be its best set today but so many things can CB better and are much faster.I'm willing to look into it though. Snorlax probably functions with good team support, like screens and Wish, but it is pretty highly outclassed.
It is pretty damn heavy though. I wonder how viable Heavy Bomber is? Somebody should make a list of the top OU pokemon and what the BP of Heavy Bomber against each is.
 
Mind you all, Snorlax is still a champ with Life Orb in Trick Room.
I fucking love unorthodox sets, dammit.

BlackWhitelax@Life Orb
Brave, 252 hp 252 atk 6 sdef. 0 IVs in speed.
~Return
~Crunch
~Earthquake
~Fire Punch / Selfdestruct
 
Actually, looking now, I'm trying to see if I can't get a badass Last Resort set to work! It got a small BP boost to 140, so with STAB it's a 210 BP attack. nice!Snorlax@LeftoversThick FatAdamant/Careful 252 HP / 4 Df / 252 SpDLast ResortCurseRestSleep Talk/Fire PunchI'm not certain on the EVs or nature, but the idea is you Curse up, Rest, and then Sleep Talk picks either Curse or Last Resort again. Yes the BP is horrible and you're walled by Ghosts which is why you can pick Fire Punch to hit everything but Chandelure, Jellicent and Heatran. Crunch hits the Ghosts but then the Steels wall you bad. It's obviously quite gimmicky but I'm willing to look into a variation or a good team to help it work. Smogon says the move can work if you only opt for two moves *shrugs*. Might be worth it.
EDIT: Snorlax can learn Outrage? Really? Cool, but WTF?
 
Jaroda said:
EDIT: Snorlax can learn Outrage? Really? Cool, but WTF?
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Of course it learns Outrage! I'd be Outraged too if I was trying to take a nap but some jerk was wailing on me and kept waking me up! It makes perfect sense! =P

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On another note. Any one notice Curse is now a Ghost typed move? :o Pretty sure that changes nothing but still...interesting.
 
BellyDrumRestLax
@Chesto Berry/Thick Fat
Bold Nature
252HP/252Def/4SpDef

Belly Drum
Rest
Return
Earthquake

Max out HP and Def to stop those damn fighting types like Conkeldurr from completely wrecking your shop. With rest on a bulky guy as good as Lax, it'll be hard to kill. +6 Atk with Stab return and EQ coverage.
 
Bombkirby said:
Isn't that exactly what I said though? ^_^' Isn't curse the only move of that type?
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Yes, but they also removed the coding for Arceus's ??? type, and Roost now turns you into a Normal type if hacked onto a pure Flying type. Possibly some other stuff too that I can't think of at the moment.
 
i'm a fan of curselax.

sadly rugged helmet ferro walls sets without firepunch/earthquake(to a lesser extent). and it rofls at curselax with leech seeds.
 
I find that Curselax has some great synergy with Weezing.

Snorlax may not be the god he once was, but with proper team support he can still be a very lethal Pokemon.
 
Dr. Alex said:
BellyDrumRestLax
@Chesto Berry/Thick Fat
Bold Nature
252HP/252Def/4SpDef

Belly Drum
Rest
Return
Earthquake

Max out HP and Def to stop those damn fighting types like Conkeldurr from completely wrecking your shop. With rest on a bulky guy as good as Lax, it'll be hard to kill. +6 Atk with Stab return and EQ coverage.
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why would you use a bold nature when you're aiming to increase it's attack?
 
I don't find Curselax or other set up variants to be particularly effective this gen - I'd rather use it as a bulky special tank with some decent power behind it:

Snorlax@Choice Band / Leftovers
Adamant / Brave; 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD

Return / Body Slam
Crunch
Superpower
Selfdestruct

This is the set Snorlax needs to be using, taking advantage of its high bulk to come into special attacks. Return with CB for more power, Crunch hits ghosts and psychics (particularly Reuniclus).

Superpower is superior to both Fire Punch and Earthquake this gen, as it hits Ferrothorn while simultaneously hitting common balloon users (Terakion, Chandelure, Excadrill) and being a useful move in general. Selfdestruct is still stupidly powerful as a 300 Base Power attack coming of of 350 Atk and possibly a CB.
 
Substitute chandelure for lucario.

Thanks to psycho shock users, I'm finding snorlax a bit tougher to switch in.
 
Choice Band Snorlax runs 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD given his massive HP stat and that he generally takes on special attackers. But yeah I agree, CurseLax is (sadly) near unuseable this generation without huge team support, CB Lax is the way to go.
 
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