I'm more appalled at him suggesting Kyurem *might* be banned.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
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Manaphy is a still menace with out rain, since it has good bulk and one of the best boosting moves in the game. It also has great offensive typing, and after a Tail glow become pretty threatening. Politoed also makes other pokemon such as Kingdra very difficult to face.
Thanks for catching that. I just accidentally copied that from Salamence. I don't think Kyurem is broken since Steel types wall it for the most part, and there are plenty of faster dragons that can Ko it.
QFT
again
MixMence is probably its only even vaguely questionable set this Gen. And even that isn't game-breaking.
Garchomp is only questionable in sand, but people are so caught up with Dory (who I don't think is broken at all) that they seem to have forgotten poor Chomp.
Without the ability to instantly heal itself, Manaphy can be killed off by any number of things. Even with Tail Glow.
Capefeather said:
I managed to get number 3 with 1370+ (before i started getting haxed anyway, now I'm in the 1330's I think. Pretty much ragequit after losing 2 battles to hax, them was busy the next day, then I saw all the topics on octillery and decided not to play on it.) With a team of 5 bug weaks. For some reason people would always say "nice team." I really don't feel any of the pokes I were using were overpowering, people are just soooo predictable. I <3 the new team preview. P.S. Natty is not a latios counter.
And many of the games that I lost were due to skymin flinchax. including one where scarf skymin flinchhaxed through 3-4 of my pokes when it was my opponent's last poke *coughubercough*
This is an interesting point that I've been meaning to make myself, but haven't found the right spot to do it. I believe that, currently, Garchomp is the only pokemon with an "evasion ability" who does not have a second option it can use at the moment. I would propose that if/when everything with Sand Veil/Snow Cloak is released with an alternate ability, we actually do take a long, hard look at banning these abilities themselves under the evasion clause.
Accupressure is a much different case from Inconsistent and is not nearly as broken because you cannot just sit there using stalling moves while you get a random boost every turn. You have to actively use the move, leaving you open to anything your opponent wants to hit you with.
It still seems safer to ban both Manaphy and Kingdra than Politoed, if it ever came to that.
No doubt Manaphy is a threat, it's capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing most of the Gen 4 Ubers tier with one Tail Glow. Politoed is annoying, but Sand is much more threatening than rain. Sand has two starters, and both are great pokemon in their own right. Sun and Rain have Politoed and Ninetales, mediocre pokemon besides their abilities.
Both of these I've had no trouble against, Garchomp cant pull of an SD set as effectively anymore due to the sheer amount of other dragons and ice attacks flying at it.
It would be silly to ban Inconsistent without testing it. It's a brand new ability that just recently (days?) became popular because of one new set. A new set that has glaring weaknesses and relies completely on luck to succeed.
I believe that there is a certain 100% counter to this strategy. That one card will force a switche 100% of the time if they hit you, and I don't imagine an Octillery has half a chance when all of its PP is gone. The strategy can only work one time, if that, and this item and several moves and items also destroy the strategy.
Feint now has 50 base power and hits even if Protect fails or if they don't even use Protect. The likelyhood of a strong pokemon breaking a Bibarel or Octillery sub, both of which have really sub-par defenses, is quite good. Boosting items just make this easier.
Why can't you boost while they boost, anyway? A Bulk-Up, Sword's Dance/Agility or Calm Mind sweeper would love to go up against Octillery, especially those with Guts or Poison Heal. One boost per turn is not as good as two, or even 3 like Butterfly Dance.
Pressure and Spite still work and work especially well when you are solely dependent on getting 10+ turns of boosts in to sweep.
Disable received a huge boost this gen with increased accuracy.
Anyone else care to share a few? Trial and error came up with the Inconsistent strategy, so the same brainstorming process has to happen to counter it.
I believe that there is a certain 100% counter to this strategy. That one card will force a switche 100% of the time if they hit you, and I don't imagine an Octillery has half a chance when all of its PP is gone. The strategy can only work one time, if that, and this item and several moves and items also destroy the strategy.
Feint now has 50 base power and hits even if Protect fails or if they don't even use Protect. The likelyhood of a strong pokemon breaking a Bibarel or Octillery sub, both of which have really sub-par defenses, is quite good. Boosting items just make this easier.
Why can't you boost while they boost, anyway? A Bulk-Up, Sword's Dance/Agility or Calm Mind sweeper would love to go up against Octillery, especially those with Guts or Poison Heal. One boost per turn is not as good as two, or even 3 like Butterfly Dance.
Pressure and Spite still work and work especially well when you are solely dependent on getting 10+ turns of boosts in to sweep.
Disable received a huge boost this gen with increased accuracy.
Anyone else care to share a few? Trial and error came up with the Inconsistent strategy, so the same brainstorming process has to happen to counter it.
Scarf Darkrai
Specs Latios
LO Deoxys-A
Bulk up Roobushin
CM Rankurusu
Specially defensive Abomasnow
I'm not afraid to share it, The main reason I won was that team preview makes people easy to predict, as well as allowing me to figure out and target problem pokes.
Baldafor said:
Most of these strategies only work well against his particular pokemon, having very little other viable use in the metagame. This makes them gimmicks, just like scarf Cressy (who I think might have had more utility then people gave her credit for- did she learn trick back then?EDIT She did the second time chomp was tested. I really don't think he was uber with latias around as well.) Before you say hp fire for scizor, that's different. you didn't need that poke to beat scizor, nor did not running hp fire mean scizor would sweep you.
Counter-boosting does not work. Eventually someone will get a crit, and thanks to evasion boosts, odds are that is octillery. Also glalie (once it is released) learns ice breath. And people have been swept by +6 struggle 0.0
The thing is that now that OU is "stronger" than before, you either have to be able boost or simply be a natural monster to make it as a sweeper.
However, while Dragonite can more easily boost thanks to Multi-Scale, they did not get new abilities. They stayed realtively the same, while OU has moved forward. I think that's their problem.
Agreed. Garchomp really cant afford to risk going for a boost, and neither can Mence. Dragonite looks like it's going to have an easier time sweeping, and now it can fit on a Rain team with Windstorm + Surf + Agility + Rest/Dragon Pulse.
While I wasn't playing when garchomp was originally banned in DP (I only lurked, had a lousy old computer so didn't even bother to try playing shoddy, or even make an account- I've actually been reading the smogon forums since Gen III- albeit the very tail end thereof); in the stage 3 test with latias and new and improved platinum pokes, I felt his best set was scarf anyway. I really don't see much taking away that position from him on non-sand teams (Dory steals his thunder on sand teams- even if it doesn't have stab outrage).
I think your not giving Garchomp enough credit. A Haban/Yache set is quite threatening in the sand, If Garchomp, can force a switch, which shouldn't be that difficult, say on Blissey or something. You Swords Dance, they switch in Dragon type, say Sazandora or something. With a Haban berry you can survive most Dragon attacks, bar a Specs/LO Draco Meteor from Lati@s. Most of the time you can destroy any dragon that they send in. Also, there arent many walls that can KO Garchomp before, it Koes them.
Not really, it still outspeeds most of the metagame, and outspeeds all of the new threats with 95-101 Base speed.
Why wouldn't Blissey just Ice Beam it? And you've still got to worry about Shaymin-S with HP Ice, or Kingdra and any other rain team, or Lati@s. I mean, considering Lati@s will outspeed an unscarfed Chomp, even if Garchomp's Haban weakens one dragon attack it's still going to be outsped and koed the next hit. Don't forget Mamoswine will be much more prominent now as well, since it is immune to SS, Hail, and has Thick Fat. Weavile also sees a lot of use now.
Blissey often doesn't have Ice beam, they usually have Status moves, or Seismic Toss instead. Yeah, there are pokemon that can take Garchomp on, However sand veil makes it even harder to take down. It depends on what Type resist berry it has. With Haban, it will get past most dragons, with Yache, it will get past most other things. I haven't seen many Mamoswine or Weavile on the ladder except for leads.
I've seen many, and even if Garchomp gets past one pokemon, it's not getting past the other. (Any good team will have more than one dragon counter, as they are so prominent.) A lot of people are running Choiced Scarfed Abomasnows too, and I doubt Garchomp can live through a STAB Blizzard.
I think a good move in the last slot would be Thunder. Not because it provides good coverage per se, but it would simply be another way to abuse the rain.
Here is my line of thinking based off of what you're saying:
[Link to serebii with all Sand Veil users: http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/sandveil.shtml]
[Link to serebii with all Snow Cloak users http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/snowcloak.shtml]
Garchomp, Sandslah, and Cacturne (excluding NFE's) all have Sand Veil as their only non-DW ability in 5th gen. In sand, these pokes would be be violating the heart of the Evasion Clause. If we are going to look at Garchomp and ban it because of its Sand Veil ability, what of Sandslash and Cacturne? While I agree their respective movepool, base stats, and typing would make them inferior to Garchomp, we cannot ban Garchomp on grounds of the Evasion Clause with its Sand Veil ability if we do not also ban Sandslash and Cacturne respectively.
For Snow Cloak, Glaceon, Froslass, and Tsunbear all have only Snow Cloak as their ability, again non-DW. If the community decides to ban the Snow Cloak ability for violation of the Evasion Clause, then the community is also effectively banning Glaceon, Froslass, and Tsunbear because they lack secondary abilities.
If the community were to decided to ban just the Sand Veil / SnowCloak ability because of the Evasion Clause, then that is the same thing as banning Garchomp, Sandslash, Cacturne, Glaceon, Froslass, and Tsunbear, bar DW abilities, because they lack secondary abilities.
However, the community may decide to change the nature of the evasion clause for the 5th gen, or add/subtract to/from it. In this case, my argument may be in vain.
The big question, is an evasion-boosting ability broken enough that the community decides to ban it or not? Does the fact that these abilities require weather affect the effectiveness of these abilities? Will we see a upsurging of Cloud Nine bearers (Golduck or Altaria/Likcylicky in DW) in order to counter the potential threat from evasion-boosting weather mons?
If Garchomp gets re-classified as ubers and not Sandslash, Cacturne, Glaceon, Froslass, and Tsunbear, then it is not because of his ability to dodge opponents attacks in the sand, it is something much more.
hmm, I haven't seem many Abomasnows either, They were either the standard Subseed or Choice Band. Scarf Abomasnow will reliably beat Garchomp, though it can't really switch in in fear of Outrage or Fire Fang. Earthquake will still do quite a bit of damage. However, if Garchomp has a Yache berry, it will survive a Blizzard most of the time (87.2% - 102.8%), However, most of the time, hail will Ko Garchomp at the end of the turn.
Well, I think I see so many because Abomasnow disrupts many Weather teams, which are prominent in the current meta.
Thunder is great as well, but Dragonite needs Dragon Pulse for STAB.
Stealth Rock dude
I mean, fine, Garchomp is still a threat, probably the best Swords Dancing Dragon-type, but I think that you're hyping it a bit too much. I don't think that it's broken, but I guess you haven't really said that, either.
Garchomp isn't that much of a threat anymore. I run Yache chomp and on average it can only take out 1-2 pokemon on a decent team. Garchomp still can run though any team that doesn't have a counter for him. Most pokemon containing ice beam are not faster than garchomp meaning if he Sd on the switch he can effectively take them out before they hit him. If they do manage to hit him, yache activates and then he kills them and continues on to the rest of the team.
As for his sand veil ability, it got him banned last gen. Not the ability itself, but with his ability to either hold haban or yache and making countering him extremely difficult. If he killed your counter he would wreck your team, and that almost stands true now.
As for his sand veil ability, it got him banned last gen. Not the ability itself, but with his ability to either hold haban or yache and making countering him extremely difficult. If he killed your counter he would wreck your team, and that almost stands true now.
1) If your team isn't running a dragon counter, it probably sucks.
2) Cresselia will Ice Beam once while Garchomp SD's, and live through a +2 Outrage and KO with Ice beam.
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