np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[Super]

I should say that with PO's recent removal of evasion and ohko clause, their current implementation is not to prevent evasion move midbattle, but to ban the moves from even entering the battle in the first place. This was also PL's implementation of evasion and ohko clause.

I figured I should clear that up.

 

[NC]

Random chance is a fundamental part of the game. Another fundamental part of the game is manipulating that chance so that it's in your favor. If you think Inconsistent is actually broken, then by all means ban it for that reason. But don't come up with this crap about BAAWWW HAX BAWWWW.

I'm posting to say I agree with petrie 100%. Even ignoring all the obvious instances where luck can come into play such as critical hits, confusion, effects of attacks, fully paralyzed, etc., every single time damage is done "luck" is involved because of the mechanics of the damage formula. Banning things that aren't (or may not be) broken, but because of the "luck" involved with them is completely arbitrary given that some sort of luck is involved every single turn. It is not possible to manipulate the conditions of this game so that the more skilled (however this is defined) player wins 100% of the time.

Another issue I have is people on both sides are being incredibly over-dramatic about the effects of inconsistent (and other things too like shaymin). It's presence is not "turning every game into a coin flip" or "making everyone randomly press buttons." On the other hand, unless you rarely battle, it is very unlikely you have "never had any issues" with octillery or other users of inconsistent as it has shown to be a very viable strategy that is difficult to stop. You sound more credible if you are being reasonable and not trying to over-exaggerate your point.

With all that being said, I still don't know whether I would vote to ban octillery at this point. I would lean toward yes right now (not because of any "luck" factor but because it is so hard to stop), but I've only been playing against it for a few days now so it may just be that I have not yet figured out how to beat it reliably while maintaining the ability to stop other top threats.

 

[j99ubers]

I should say that with PO's recent removal of evasion and ohko clause, their current implementation is not to prevent evasion move midbattle, but to ban the moves from even entering the battle in the first place. This was also PL's implementation of evasion and ohko clause.

I figured I should clear that up.

Wait what? I played on Beta a few days ago while Smogon and not only were Evasion moves allowed to enter the match they also worked. And this was a ladder match not a Challenge match.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Another issue I have is people on both sides are being incredibly over-dramatic about the effects of inconsistent (and other things too like shaymin). It's presence is not "turning every game into a coin flip" or "making everyone randomly press buttons." On the other hand, unless you rarely battle, it is very unlikely you have "never had any issues" with octillery or other users of inconsistent as it has shown to be a very viable strategy that is difficult to stop. You sound more credible if you are being reasonable and not trying to over-exaggerate your point.

The bolded part would be the problem. You can be winning 6 to 1 against a last poke Octillery, with Shaymin-S, Rotom-W, Nattorei, Roaring Gyarados (lol now worthless), etc. etc. on your team, and still be quite plausibly swept by Octillery despite all the "anti-octillery" measures you've put into your team. On top of it all, you are completely powerless to do any sort of strategic maneuvering to get you out of the situation. While there may be some cursory thinking involved (lol) on the side of the octillery player to best his odds of winning, you are just reduced to pressing the "attack" button again and again, hoping to get lucky.

What the fuck is strategic about that?

Why should that be allowed in a competitive game? Especially when we already have OHKO and Evasion banned (by SUPER MAJORITY of PR members I might add). Inconsistent goes so far beyond that. In fact, I'd say inconsistent goes so far beyond Shadow Tag, which got Wobb banned last gen.

 

[Ultimate Laxbro]

i agree with everything the genius above me stated. he said everything i wanted to say and more. if given the chance im voting trolltillery ban

 

[Pallas Athena]

@Chou Toshio: Agreeing entirely. Thank you for posting the point clearly, which I have had trouble with.

 

[Gabe]

Octillery is now the greatest troll in pokemon.

 

[idiotfrommars]

I feel that even if we removed the evasion part of inconsistent the ability would still be broken. Your still getting boosts every turn which can make you lightning fast or basically invincible with massive defenses. I feel that we should just bad inconsistent completely.

 

[NC]

The bolded part would be the problem. You can be winning 6 to 1 against a last poke Octillery, with Shaymin-S, Rotom-W, Nattorei, Roaring Gyarados (lol now worthless), etc. etc. on your team, and still be quite plausibly swept by Octillery despite all the "anti-octillery" measures you've put into your team. On top of it all, you are completely powerless to do any sort of strategic maneuvering to get you out of the situation. While there may be some cursory thinking involved (lol) on the side of the octillery player to best his odds of winning, you are just reduced to pressing the "attack" button again and again, hoping to get lucky.

What the fuck is strategic about that?

Why should that be allowed in a competitive game? Especially when we already have OHKO and Evasion banned (by SUPER MAJORITY of PR members I might add). Inconsistent goes so far beyond that. In fact, I'd say inconsistent goes so far beyond Shadow Tag, which got Wobb banned last gen.

This is the over-exaggerating I am talking about. While what you just said could POSSIBLY happen, the reality is that in that situation (last pokemon octillery when you still have counters left), you will win much more often than not. The same exact thing could apply to last-pokemon Bulk-up Roopushin getting a critical hit stone edge on your gliscor, or really any "last-pokemon defensive set-up pokemon" getting any critical hit. If you want to relaiably beat these, use perish song. Otherwise, there is always the chance that you will lose when you (according to the majority here) "shouldn't." That clicking buttons thing may apply here, but that can also apply in more accepted situations such as two calm mind rankurusu's hoping for a critical hit against each other at the end of a match. Neither situation was causing the entire match to be "just clicking buttons," despite that being a possible result.

On your last point, I do realize that PR voted to ban evasion and OHKO moves. I have already said why I think this was an incredibly arbitrary ban without testing it first, but I would also like to note that they also voted not to stay true to cartridge mechanics, yet that is what we are doing and it seems to be accepted by the "masses" for the most part.

 

[petrie911]

The bolded part would be the problem. You can be winning 6 to 1 against a last poke Octillery, with Shaymin-S, Rotom-W, Nattorei, Roaring Gyarados (lol now worthless), etc. etc. on your team, and still be quite plausibly swept by Octillery despite all the "anti-octillery" measures you've put into your team. On top of it all, you are completely powerless to do any sort of strategic maneuvering to get you out of the situation. While there may be some cursory thinking involved (lol) on the side of the octillery player to best his odds of winning, you are just reduced to pressing the "attack" button again and again, hoping to get lucky.

What the fuck is strategic about that?

The strategic part is not getting into that scenario in the first place. There are certainly other scenarios where you can be left to rely on chance (hello flinchhaxing Jirachi), so this is hardly a new phenomenon. Also, if your anti-octillery measures can't handle it when it's the last Pokemon, I question how effective they were in the first place.

EDIT: Of course, it should also be noted that in that scenario, the odds are still heavily in your favor. That you will sometimes lose due to your opponent getting a lucky streak is something you're going to have to accept if you're going to play Pokemon.

Why should that be allowed in a competitive game? Especially when we already have OHKO and Evasion banned (by SUPER MAJORITY of PR members I might add). Inconsistent goes so far beyond that. In fact, I'd say inconsistent goes so far beyond Shadow Tag, which got Wobb banned last gen.

Why should it be allowed in a competitive game? Because it's in the game. The question is always "Why shouldn't this be allowed in the game?" and not the other way around.

That a supermajority of PR members voted to ban them despite having no experience with them in a metagame since ADV says much more about our PR members than it does about the Evasion and OHKOs.

 

[TwilightWings]

I agree with the guy above me. I mean, there are so many times where luck will shoot you down. The otherday my opponenets gliscor got 7 critical hits in a row with stone edge and I lost. Should stone edge be banned? No it shouldn't because luck is a part of the game.

How would you feel if you beat your opponent and he said: "If your damage ratio had been a little lower I would have won." you'd think he's just winning about having bad luck. Well unfortunately that is what most of the anti-octillery pokemon are saying. Just wish I could get enough points to vote but college is killing me Dx

 

[dragonmaster951753]

This is the over-exaggerating I am talking about. While what you just said could POSSIBLY happen, the reality is that in that situation (last pokemon octillery when you still have counters left), you will win much more often than not. The same exact thing could apply to last-pokemon Bulk-up Roopushin getting a critical hit stone edge on your gliscor, or really any "last-pokemon defensive set-up pokemon" getting any critical hit. If you want to relaiably beat these, use perish song. Otherwise, there is always the chance that you will lose when you (according to the majority here) "shouldn't." That clicking buttons thing may apply here, but that can also apply in more accepted situations such as two calm mind rankurusu's hoping for a critical hit against each other at the end of a match. Neither situation was causing the entire match to be "just clicking buttons," despite that being a possible result.

On your last point, I do realize that PR voted to ban evasion and OHKO moves. I have already said why I think this was an incredibly arbitrary ban without testing it first, but I would also like to note that they also voted not to stay true to cartridge mechanics, yet that is what we are doing and it seems to be accepted by the "masses" for the most part.

The problem i have with your statement is, the ODDS of something like roobushin getting a critical on your team of 6 against everyone that matter is really low, while stalling with octillery is very easy. Protect, Sub, Protect, Sub, Protect, Sub until you get the stats you want and then attack simple. Roobushin still has to fear a specially offensive flying/psychic attack that may come his way and destroy him or someone with intimidate. Octillery will just laugh at that and continue to boost up and if he is the last pokemon you can't even roar him out. I ran across him once and tried roaring him out, he dodged it 6 times, that is a problem.

Inconsistent shouldn't be allowed at all, outside of evasion, getting defense boosts means sub won't be easy to break and with leftovers and protect could turn into a really really really long drawn out battle that you may not be able to handle without OVERCENTRALIZING someone on your team to specifically handle him.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

I agree with the guy above me. I mean, there are so many times where luck will shoot you down. The otherday my opponenets gliscor got 7 critical hits in a row with stone edge and I lost. Should stone edge be banned? No it shouldn't because luck is a part of the game.

How would you feel if you beat your opponent and he said: "If your damage ratio had been a little lower I would have won." you'd think he's just winning about having bad luck. Well unfortunately that is what most of the anti-octillery pokemon are saying. Just wish I could get enough points to vote but college is killing me Dx

You sir have bad luck and should never gamble.
In a situation like that all you can do is get mad, but clearly the person playing you wasn't going, "Dude watch i will sweep his team by getting criticals on everyone watch it is easy" he was probably just as surprised as you were. The difference with octillery, they stall to get the boost they want, it almost isn't random since they won't strike until they get the abilities they want.

 

[KurashiDragon]

The problem with inconsistent is that it's to broken. You need to take into account that, even with 1/7 chance of getting what you want, it's easy to get what you want. It turns the battle out of your favor completely.

@dragonmaster951753

Inconsistent probably wouldn't be as broken if evasion were taken out of the picture. It'd be rather easy to phase an inconsistent user out if it werent missing so much.

Also plz don't Double post. Just edit your post if you wanna say something else.

@Petrie911

You speak like it's easy to counter such a threat. Things like CSjirachi are not as luck based as inconsistent. I believe the term is "Lesser of two evils." It's easier to deal with things like CSjirachi because they have checks and counters. The only true counter to an Inconsistent user is luck. If you can get that +2 evasion it's rather easy to stall out the other stats and sweep through your opponent. You cant just not get into that situation. It's gonna happen so long as inconsistent remains.

@Twilight Wings

I use the term "Lesser of 2 evils" once again. Things like that do happen yes. It is unlucky that this happens but that's randum and doesnt happen so often. Inconsistent is a controled form of luck that's easy to make happen with stall tactics. (Which is why I don't believe CS Jirachi is to broken. It's very unlucky to consistently flinch your opponent and it can be countered much more easily than inconsitent.)

Edit:

I was on PO not so long ago. I just wanted to battle some. I saw some Inconsitent users. Sandstorm, Rain, and a whole lot of the same Darkrai, Skymin, Deoxys teams. I gotta say, there isn't much versitility in this early metagame. It's really boring facing the same stuff over and over again. I stand by the things I say need to be tested in an earlier post on this thread. However, even more so with Darkrai because, sense I've been using one, I've been winning alot more battles. It's so easy to just put something to sleep. That pokes is crippled for the majority of the game. (Unless some form of hax comes which it usually does)

 

[shrang]

Okay, after using Rain Dance for a while, I really think Politoed should go. Not Manaphy, not Kingdra, Politoed. Hell, I haven't even tried Kabutops, Ludicolo and other annoying Swift Swimmers for a while and from just Kingdra and Manaphy alone you can tell rain gives them way too much support. If you want a fun raining Kingdra set to use, use Specs Kingdra. It's got practically the same Special Attack stat as SpecsJolt or Specs Latias, but with rain-boosted Water-type attacks and STAB Dragon attacks. On top of that, you have 538 Speed. I'm quite sure most people would agree that Manaphy in the rain is an asshole. He is. I'm using my favourite CM Manaphy again, and all you have to do is just to predict Shaymin-S switch-ins (Pretty much the only special attacker that can OHKO you at +1) and Ice Beam it as it comes in. Then you're pretty much free. Calm Mind/Boil Over/Ice Beam/Rest is fun.

P.S. This is coming from someone who was heavily opposed to banning Damp Rock in 4th gen UU, heh

 

[dragonmaster951753]

Okay, after using Rain Dance for a while, I really think Politoed should go. Not Manaphy, not Kingdra, Politoed. Hell, I haven't even tried Kabutops, Ludicolo and other annoying Swift Swimmers for a while and from just Kingdra and Manaphy alone you can tell rain gives them way too much support. If you want a fun raining Kingdra set to use, use Specs Kingdra. It's got practically the same Special Attack stat as SpecsJolt or Specs Latias, but with rain-boosted Water-type attacks and STAB Dragon attacks. On top of that, you have 538 Speed. I'm quite sure most people would agree that Manaphy in the rain is an asshole. He is. I'm using my favourite CM Manaphy again, and all you have to do is just to predict Shaymin-S switch-ins (Pretty much the only special attacker that can OHKO you at +1) and Ice Beam it as it comes in. Then you're pretty much free. Calm Mind/Boil Over/Ice Beam/Rest is fun.

P.S. This is coming from someone who was heavily opposed to banning Damp Rock in 4th gen UU, heh

Might as well get to banning ninetails/hippo/TT. Doryuuzu is mostly beast due to sandthrow but according to your logic, get rid of the constant creator and it removes the problem, (except for manaphy I have swept with him in the sun). Politoed isnt' broken, manaphy is, and kingdra can be stalled. Kabutops is fragile, weak to grass, fighting, ground, thunder,steel. SS Ludicolo can be a problem but he can be stalled.

 

[KurashiDragon]

@dragonmasater951753

Agreed although I do think testing weather inducers wouldn't be so bad. This early metagame is dominated by weather. I feel testing them would be a good idea. Rain and Sand have to many broken teammates with em not to warrent a suspect test. (I don't believe sun is that bad simply because it's much easier to deal with than sun and Sand.) I don't feel it would be healthy for the metagame if we just ban all the teammates of weather and not the weather itself.

 

[shrang]

Might as well get to banning ninetails/hippo/TT. Doryuuzu is mostly beast due to sandthrow but according to your logic, get rid of the constant creator and it removes the problem, (except for manaphy I have swept with him in the sun). Politoed isnt' broken, manaphy is, and kingdra can be stalled. Kabutops is fragile, weak to grass, fighting, ground, thunder,steel. SS Ludicolo can be a problem but he can be stalled.

I'd be perfectly fine with that if you can prove that they are broken. At the moment, I think Dory is probably the only one that sticks out like a sore thumb on a Sand team at the moment (Randorosu is pretty close too), so I'd be for testing Dory and leave Sand alone for the time being. Manaphy is really quite broken in the rain, but stuff like Kingdra and others are bordering broken too (My Specs Kingdra have just spammed Surf a lot of the time and still swept things). I haven't used Kabutops, Ludicolo and Qwilfish yet, so I can't comment. If only one Pokemon is broken with the condition, I'd be more inclined to think that the Pokemon itself is broken, but if a whole list of Pokemon is getting a massive step-up due to the condition, I'd be more willing to question the condition itself. I haven't used Sunny Day either, so I can't really comment on that either.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

@dragonmasater951753

Agreed although I do think testing weather inducers wouldn't be so bad. This early metagame is dominated by weather. I feel testing them would be a good idea. Rain and Sand have to many broken teammates with em not to warrent a suspect test. (I don't believe sun is that bad simply because it's much easier to deal with than sun and Sand.) I don't feel it would be healthy for the metagame if we just ban all the teammates of weather and not the weather itself.

I personally would like a metagame without weather at all, but i figured it was the standard around it so it was fine.... I am not a fan of any weather but the abilities just go so far beyond than what they were when they came out in G/S/C. I think after banning manaphy and possibly some other big time weather abusers, we should look at weather itself. Nobody will really agree with me but hey to each their own. Weather is really centralizing to the point that people feel it is a standard and forget that it wasn't always there
Edit

I'd be perfectly fine with that if you can prove that they are broken. At the moment, I think Dory is probably the only one that sticks out like a sore thumb on a Sand team at the moment (Randorosu is pretty close too), so I'd be for testing Dory and leave Sand alone for the time being. Manaphy is really quite broken in the rain, but stuff like Kingdra and others are bordering broken too (My Specs Kingdra have just spammed Surf a lot of the time and still swept things). I haven't used Kabutops, Ludicolo and Qwilfish yet, so I can't comment. If only one Pokemon is broken with the condition, I'd be more inclined to think that the Pokemon itself is broken, but if a whole list of Pokemon is getting a massive step-up due to the condition, I'd be more willing to question the condition itself. I haven't used Sunny Day either, so I can't really comment on that either.

Dory and Chomp apparently are big deals on Sand teams. Chomp got banned last gen for it, but as of this gen hasn't lost any ability since the change. Dory becomes a tremendous beast that almost can't be stopped when played properly. Chomp brings +1 evasion which means "i got my chomp check right here...... CRAP IT MISSED". Those two are probably the biggest threats and IMO they are equal since they have their counters. Kingdra has always been broken IMO, he nearly always sweeps my team if my steel type is gone and if he is running specs i am through. Kab/Lud/Qwi aren't as bad as manaphy and kingdra. Sun teams... well someone needs to start using them lol

 

[Nails]

Sun: No good sweepers.

Sand: All sand sweepers are countered by gliscor/bronzong/bulky levitator.

Rain: Manaphy is broked. Everything else, not so much. Kingdra is decent, not great.

Dory is far easier to counter than chomp. When return for a coverage move is viable you know there's issues. Learn to carry a counter, don't run 6 EQ weaks. And try out a balloon, it really is a good item.

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

Sun teams actually threaten me the most as I use hail to interrupt any other weathers. I rarely play without my interrupter so my views could be from that, but Politoed and Tyranitar hardly seem broken. Kingdra can be annoying when my Latios no longer outspeeds it, but it is beyond predictable. The only broken rain pokemon at the moment is Manaphy, and even in my hail a Rindo Manaphy has proved to be overwhelmingly strong. Politoed makes more strategies viable whereas Manaphy requires I have a Poke that can outspeed and 2HKO or OHKO to win. I'll elaborate later, but my thoughts on discussed pokemon are...

Ban
Inconsistent
Manaphy

Unsure
Deoxys-A
Shaymin-S

Test More
Darkrai
Politoed
Deoxys N/S/D

I didn't mention wobbufett because he hasn't been mentioned in a while, hopefully because people aren't screaming how broken Shadow Tag is anymore. Manaphy is just too strong. Deoxys-A with LO is underwhelming, but focus sash ones hurt. Even Scizor takes heavy damage from a resisted ES as farewell damage. Shaymin-S is fast and strong, but I'm leaning OU here. It can do a number on my team with the right pokemon gone, but with the huge emphasis on speed and weather this gen there is a lot he can be outsped and killed by.

Edit: I completely forgot people were mentioning Doryuuzu. That being said, I forgot him because how not-broken he seems. He is strong, but one-dimensional and very easy to work around. He has enough viable counters that he can be managed by teams that don't prepare for him specifically. Complaining about carrying a Doryuuzu counter now seems like complaining about a dragon counter in Gen4.

 

[Arc Tech]

Sandslash also makes an excellent replacement for doryuuzu as well. Having used both of them, I found Sandslash to actually be a bit better thanks to his increased bulk. His offense is the same thanks to getting to run earth plate or life orb over balloon. The only pokes that Sandslash loses to that dory doesn't are +2 pokes in the 55-88 speed range that max their speed, Blaziken (protect variants), +1 pokes in the 105-130 range (that have + speed natures), and... brace yourself... Doryuuzu. Traded for being able to switch in on physical attacks (especially weak ones, thanks to no balloon) and actually does more damage to EQ immunes like Skarm thanks to the greater power of stone edge.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I personally would like a metagame without weather at all, but i figured it was the standard around it so it was fine.... I am not a fan of any weather but the abilities just go so far beyond than what they were when they came out in G/S/C. I think after banning manaphy and possibly some other big time weather abusers, we should look at weather itself. Nobody will really agree with me but hey to each their own. Weather is really centralizing to the point that people feel it is a standard and forget that it wasn't always there
Edit


Dory and Chomp apparently are big deals on Sand teams. Chomp got banned last gen for it, but as of this gen hasn't lost any ability since the change. Dory becomes a tremendous beast that almost can't be stopped when played properly. Chomp brings +1 evasion which means "i got my chomp check right here...... CRAP IT MISSED". Those two are probably the biggest threats and IMO they are equal since they have their counters. Kingdra has always been broken IMO, he nearly always sweeps my team if my steel type is gone and if he is running specs i am through. Kab/Lud/Qwi aren't as bad as manaphy and kingdra. Sun teams... well someone needs to start using them lol

...Note that Rain has to now deal with Nattorei, who is useful in its own right (think how Tentacruel was sort of outclassed in Gen IV, but it could beat most Infernape and it thusly became OU), benefits from the rain (i.e. it has a more manageable weakness to Fire which Rain teams rarely use anyway for obvious reasons) and it walls Kingdra's STABs to heck and back.

Manaphy seems closer towards broken IMO.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

Sun: No good sweepers.

Sand: All sand sweepers are countered by gliscor/bronzong/bulky levitator.

Rain: Manaphy is broked. Everything else, not so much. Kingdra is decent, not great.

Dory is far easier to counter than chomp. When return for a coverage move is viable you know there's issues. Learn to carry a counter, don't run 6 EQ weaks. And try out a balloon, it really is a good item.

having counters doesn't mean something isn't broken. Chomp biggest ccounter would be skarmory who can come in on anything and either toxic stall or whirlwind him anyway, yet he still got banned last gen, (example)
I disagree with gliscor beign a sand counter, my chomp gets through him easily. I SD on switch and dragon claw he goes for ice fang and yache weakens him not much of a counter. Bronzong is much like skarmory they just have to watch out for fire attack from chomp, which isn't often (i use it though)
Real point, if i have to run Gliscor/Bronzong/bulky levitator just to counter sand teams it starts to become overcentralization. I don't like having to change my teams just so i have a way to counter the major threats. I don't mind having to alter my team slightly so that the major threats can't wreck me, but if i have to adopt brand new styles just so major threats can't sweep me on turn 4 it is starting to become ban worthy.

Edit:

...Note that Rain has to now deal with Nattorei, who is useful in its own right (think how Tentacruel was sort of outclassed in Gen IV, but it could beat most Infernape and it thusly became OU), benefits from the rain (i.e. it has a more manageable weakness to Fire which Rain teams rarely use anyway for obvious reasons) and it walls Kingdra's STABs to heck and back.

Manaphy seems closer towards broken IMO.

read above statement about overcentralization and putting certain pokemon on my team just to stop a playstyle

 

[ensoriki]

Neither can simply ignoring the boost that double team goves but we do that anyway.

All clauses are replicable in game just not in the way you see them done in the simulators.
The idea of a clause is two players agreeing not to use something.
In the simulator this is all taken care of for you, so you don't forget that it's agreed not to use two salamences for instances, and the simulator prevents you.

In game you can go with your friend and say "You can only sleep one of my pokemon". Well if you forgot in game you would've ignored the rules the two of you set out. In the simulator it just prevents you from "forgetting".

Their isn't a clause that exists that cannot be replicated in game by mutual agreement.


Now making the evasion boost fail? That can't be replicated through mutual agreement, as to do that, you'd have to change the very cart.

The way to get rid of inconsistent is to ban the users to uber, or to create an "inconsistent" clause, where it is mutually agreed that neither player will use inconsistent.