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Excadrill
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
As a note, I think Balloon Dory is better because it lives longer. Immunity to Earthquake is fantastic at ruining Garchomp, and lets you get free swords dances a fair amount of times.
LO might have that extra oomph, but living to tell the tale after switching into Chomp, or living that Mach Punch from Roop and still having turns to spare to attack, that's what makes the whole thing worth it.
LO might have that extra oomph, but living to tell the tale after switching into Chomp, or living that Mach Punch from Roop and still having turns to spare to attack, that's what makes the whole thing worth it.
It may be able to switch in on Earthquakes, but with Balloon, it can't muscle through the typical Doryuzzu answers that aren't priority (Ground/Flying types, Skarm, and more). I really just breath a sigh of relief when I see a Balloon Dory because it means it's not going to OHKO my entire team after a Swords Dance.
Skarm can't do anything back to Dory, though, so when it's down to 1v1 Dory can easily Dance up and win. I like balloon on my team basically because I've got no other Ground immune Pokémon... But I don't really see why you'd run Jolly on something so fast (except to cope with speed ties).
But that IS why you run Jolly, other Doryuzuu. Initially people ran Adamant but because everyone and their mother uses Doryuzuu more and more speed kept getting invested until eventually they all ran max.
Also, I think Balloon is far more important so you can actually come in and set up while they actually attempt to pop your balloon. Doryuzuu can't sweep at all if you send your own Balloon Dory in to float over its EQ.
Case in point: other Doryuzuu are the reason why Jolly and Balloon are standard.
Also, I think Balloon is far more important so you can actually come in and set up while they actually attempt to pop your balloon. Doryuzuu can't sweep at all if you send your own Balloon Dory in to float over its EQ.
Case in point: other Doryuzuu are the reason why Jolly and Balloon are standard.
imo, dory counters are a dime a dozen, so i think a bulkier spread should probably become the standard, with just enough speed to outrun scarf skymin. Scarfjolt isn't gonna risk a tie. if your only hope of beating other dorys is a speed tie your team certainly has other issues.
also, balloon is standard because all earthquakes ohko it, while balloon gives it an immunity to set up on.
also, balloon is standard because all earthquakes ohko it, while balloon gives it an immunity to set up on.
To all those saying LO>Balloon, you're forgetting one of the most important Pokemon in the new metagame: Ditto. Scarfed Ditto can come in after the death of a teammate and force a switch and possibly net a kill depending on the circumstances. If Dory has Balloon up, Ditto cannot do this. Dory can switch into a Ground-immune, you say. Sure it can. However, the chances are that your opponent will have not simply sent Dory in from the start without trying to remove some of its checks beforehand, and will have lost a couple of 'mons in the process. In most scenarios, Dory will appear at the endgame to finish off the enemy, and will have less teammates to deal with the Ditto that can then countersweep with a SD and SS under its belt. There's also the problem of dealing with an enemy Dory that has a Balloon and just OHKOs you, but that's neither here nor there.
Skarm with 0 Atk EVs 4HKOes Dory with 0 Def EVs.
So Dory is down to ~50% just by switching in and using SD once.
I don't think Eccentric Ditto has been releaed yet, so no worries for those who play Standard.
Well yesterday I was battling against someone, with a evolution stone gligar. It survived a +4 doryuuzu rock slide under half and killed with an EQ! Unfortunately most doryuuzu's have balloon's. But maybe brick break gligar or gliscor then? Weezing also seems to be a good dory counter, with access to will-o-wisp and flamethrower. I also found that milotic's with appropriate defenses could handle a +2 EQ and kill with a Boiling Water or surf. Just my thoughts.
That would apply to most weather sweepers, no?
compared to the weather teams backbone, Dory is useless outside sand.
Homever removing sand itself is so hard seeing there are 2 summoner and both is a vry bulky pokemon. The first is a Tank that wall most gen 5 big threats and the second is a vicious attacker who can survive + 1 base 154 with full spA timid using 4x super effective move with 90 BP(sounds impossible but true) with little investment.
Homever removing sand itself is so hard seeing there are 2 summoner and both is a vry bulky pokemon. The first is a Tank that wall most gen 5 big threats and the second is a vicious attacker who can survive + 1 base 154 with full spA timid using 4x super effective move with 90 BP(sounds impossible but true) with little investment.
Could you tell us what that Pokemon is? The only thing I can think of is Aura Sphere Mewtwo, and that will OHKO him without a very defensive spread, Sandstorm and Light Screen.
Um, no? Nothing outside of Deoxys-S and a few scarf pokemon are faster than Doryuzuu in the sand. The only pokemon I'm aware of that can change the weather faster than Doryuzuu can attack are Politoed/Ninetails/Abomasnow by switching in, or a Mischievous Heart pokemon like Borotorosu that can use Rain Dance.
Doryuzuu has plenty of checks and even a few counters in the sand. Bronzong, Skarmory, Roopushin, Gliscor, Latios (without X-Scissor), Landlos, Scarf Shaymin-S, Scarf Darkrai, Nattorei, etc. And if anyone of these guys don't manage to kill it, something with Aqua Jet or Mach Punch can finish it.
This thing isn't be all-end-all and because there are plenty of viable OU opkemon that happen to check it like I just mentioned, you're starting to see Doryuzuu use decline ever since 5th gen battling began.
^Tried a CB set myself yesterday. It works wonders. Too many people try to switch in on a predicted SD and have one Pokemon crippled/killed. The fact that he has written 'Potential standalone CB sweeep' all over his face makes him even better.
Of course, at the moment, no one expects this, so surprise plays a big part here. But I think it´s definitely worth considering
Of course, at the moment, no one expects this, so surprise plays a big part here. But I think it´s definitely worth considering
The people who have suggested Sandslash might be onto something. Other than being not quite as fast as Doryuzu in Sand, it still reaches over 500 speed and actually has higher power than Jolly Doryuzu since Sandslash can afford to run Life Orb since it is not afraid of Earthquakes like Doryuzu that require it to run Balloons. And unlike Doryuzu, it survives most priority moves easily with base 110 def unless it has low health. It can potentially (maybe) survive Choice Band Aqua Jet Azumarill and since it does an average 89~%. That would have easily ohkoed any Doryuzu. Sandslash doesn't easily die to Breloom or Roopushin Mach Punch either. An opposing Doryuzu Earthquake also 2 hit koes (although if it has Balloon it will win). Sandslash gets much the same coverage and Stone Edge (if you want more power than Rock Slide). Hmm...
Considering the number of counters Doryuzu runs into trouble with (Mach Punchers especially), Sandslash seems to be worth considering since it easily survives them (Mach Punch and non Aqua Jet priority dealing at best around 60~ like Bulk Up Guts Roopushin Mach Punch). Plus it can do pretty much everything Swords Dance Doryuzu already does with less speed since it also learns Return/X-Scissor/Rapid Spin. Since few things other than opposing Doryuzu are going to outrun in Sandstorm (and occasional Scarf base 110+ speeders), this thing is still threatening and people relying solely on priority might have some trouble.
Considering the number of counters Doryuzu runs into trouble with (Mach Punchers especially), Sandslash seems to be worth considering since it easily survives them (Mach Punch and non Aqua Jet priority dealing at best around 60~ like Bulk Up Guts Roopushin Mach Punch). Plus it can do pretty much everything Swords Dance Doryuzu already does with less speed since it also learns Return/X-Scissor/Rapid Spin. Since few things other than opposing Doryuzu are going to outrun in Sandstorm (and occasional Scarf base 110+ speeders), this thing is still threatening and people relying solely on priority might have some trouble.
Chople+Aerial Ace is a cool combination if you are willing to waste a move and Item to beat breloom.
Anyway i always found Ballon to be the most useful item really.LO just wrecks shit but its much harder to set up with then Balloon.Its more of a high risk high reward strategy while Balloon is a much safer option.And could you not make dumb statements like With a Rock slide flinch+Return Dory can beat gliscor?I mean its a friken 30% chance and some people act like Gliscor cant touch dory anymore.
Anyway i always found Ballon to be the most useful item really.LO just wrecks shit but its much harder to set up with then Balloon.Its more of a high risk high reward strategy while Balloon is a much safer option.And could you not make dumb statements like With a Rock slide flinch+Return Dory can beat gliscor?I mean its a friken 30% chance and some people act like Gliscor cant touch dory anymore.
Wow. First of all, Doryuuzu can KO with +2 Rock Slide and Return. Fact. Look up your calcs. I just skimmed through the last couple of pages and I didn't read anything about Gliscor not being a counter. I did say, however, that he has a 30% chance to beat it if he's at full health. Jolly Balloon Dory has no chance of beating it without a massive surge of luck (crit+flinch+prior damage).
Jolly Balloon +2 Rock Slide: 39% - 46.3%
Adamant LO +2 Rock Slide: 43.5% - 51.4%
Adamant LO +2 Return: 76% - 89.5%
Even if you're at +2, you are incapable of 2HKOing Gliscor while he uses a secondary move to break the Balloon, then finish you off with Earthquake.
And LO Dory incurs no more risks than a normal sweeper would with any other sweeping set. You still have to play smart and put your opponent into a position where you can feasibly set up. At +2, LO Doryuuzu can run through more teams than you've ever dreamed of. I used to use Quagsire to counter Jolly Balloon Dory, but the few players willing to run LO met him with a swift 2HKO. It's much harder to deal with than Balloon Dory, since the speed is still there, but the damage output becomes ridiculous.
No matter what item it uses Skarm still counters it.
I ran these calcs for the suspect thread. I'll show them here.
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+4 Adamant LO Doryuuzu Rock Slide vs.
Max/Max Imish Skarmory: 61.1%- 71.9%
+4 Adamant LO Doryuuzu vs.
Max/Max Impish Skarmory: 61.1%- 72.2%
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In both cases, Skarm survives after 2 Stealth Rock switch-ins.
Once you get Skarm in, just tank the hit and Whirlwind it away. Then Roost.
But who lets it get up to +4 anyway?
Of course, this has nothing to do with the viability of LO on Dory.
I pesonally like LO better. But Balloon is more common.
It's true that Skarm cannot Whirlwind the last pokemon. And that your situation is plausible.
On the other hand, I can think of only 3 or 4 other 'mons who could take a +4 hit from Dory. Especially LO Dory. None of them would fare much better either.
But as I said before, you shouldn't let it get up to +4 in the first place.
Then again, a last-pokemon Dory will have fun setting up when Brave Bird does ~25%. Two Swords Dances and it's down to ~50%. Then Skarm takes the hit and brings it down to ~25%. Then Skarm dies. So if it's Skarm vs. Dory as the last pokemon, then Dory wins.
