np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[BurningMan]

No, because no Smeargle ever uses Dark Void in singles due to the presence of Spore, and it'd probably be banned in Doubles anyway under Sleep Clause.

EDIT: @above: sorry, half of what you said makes absolutely no sense (what the fuck is a 'suggested use'?) but the point you're getting at seems to be that banning Dark Void is no different from removing it from Darkrai's movepool. However, you simply claim this is a bad idea without supplying any evidence; in what significant way (that is, not 'SD is an item, DV is a move') is banning Dark Void any less acceptable than the Soul Dew clause? The biggest argument against banning specific moves on specific pokemon is that it overcomplicates the ruleset, and it creates a slippery slope (ie, 'Water Pulse Kyogre could be OU!' etc).

@cosmicexplorer: I think what you're basically saying is 'if we ban move x, and move y is categorically superior, we must also ban move y, otherwise we're not banning the move, simply its use on a particular pokemon'. However, consider this: Light Ball doubles both attacking stats. Soul Dew increases SpA and SpD by one stage. In some situations, Soul Dew is admittedly superior, but the net boost granted by Light Ball is much greater, and the attacking stats are arguably the most useful stats to have boosted. However, last generation we banned Soul Dew and not Light Ball. This was because the abusers of Soul Dew were two pokemon with good typing, abilities, BST and stat distribution, while the only abuser of Light Ball was an otherwise terrible pokemon with subpar stats all round when not boosted by the item. If Light Ball had been available to something like Salamence last gen, it almost certainly would've been banned. The reason it wasn't was because of its distribution. The same applies to Dark Void and Spore; Dark Void is available to a pokemon with more or less the best possible specially offensive stat distribution backed by a 600 BST and an ability that makes Sleep even worse than usual; by comparison, Spore is available to three much weaker pokemon. Dark Void is to Spore as Soul Dew is to Light Ball.

You are actually right banning Soul Dew was a slippery slope, however this doesn't justifies creating even more of these.
Also the point of banning Soul Dew was that it would be the reason why the Latis would be broken so we took away the obviously most broken part of them. On Darkrai however you can't say that Dark Void is the reason he is broken maybe its the access to Nasty Plot or the Superb Coverage in just two Moves or maybe its just the near perfect stat distribution.
The easiest and most justifiable thing to do would be banning Dark Void it affects only him and is definatelly one of the biggest reasons for Darkrais brokeness, but why shouldn't we simply put Darkrai in Ubers do we really need another slippery slope would the metagame benefit from a crippled Darkrai? This is the point where i say no, we don't need Darkrai that badly that it justifies creating slippery slopes and as we saw in Gen 4 we never needed this slippery slope of Soul Dew clause either since the Latis were still broken back then.

However if the Soul Dew gets released in Gen 5 wich will propably take some time and we still didn't banned the Latis i don't see why we shouldn't recreate Soul Dew Clause since we actually tested them without SD and since they weren't broken without so why introduce something that clearly breaks them.
In the same way i would say if we only got access to a non-Dark Void Darkrai for some months and it wasn't broken till then, hey why not introduce a Dark Void clause however this is not the case and i don't think we really need even more suspect tests.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Darkrai is the only fast reliable sleeper. Every Spore user and Butterfree can't even be considered to have good speed. This in combination with Darkrai's Bad Dreams, Nasty Plot, and high Special Attack makes it clear that it's not sleep that's the problem, it's Darkrai. Every other sleeper may find their target waking up the next turn, and being powerless to resleep the target because it is faster and destroys them first. But Darkrai can just resleep the next turn.

The other fast sleeper, Jumpluff, is unreliable at a 75% chance of putting the target to sleep.

 

[SJCrew]

EDIT: @above: sorry, half of what you said makes absolutely no sense (what the fuck is a 'suggested use'?)

Please, don't pull that shit on me. Suggested use is exactly what the term implies: it says on the item description that it works with Latios and Latias, but the loophole is, it can be distributed to other Pokemon, so we're not really banning anything that Latias or Latios are naturally capable of.

In this case, only Darkrai can learn Dark Void. Furthermore, Dark Void in and of itself is not a broken move. Better Sleep moves have such poor distribution that the Pokemon using them can't beat their counters even after a couple of free turns. If we ban Dark Void, we can technically say we're just banning the move, but in reality, you're just trying to nerf Darkrai. That's not a good way to go about things.

but the point you're getting at seems to be that banning Dark Void is no different from removing it from Darkrai's movepool. However, you simply claim this is a bad idea without supplying any evidence

How about: we don't ban moves to make Pokemon more viable. There is no precident for it. If we set a precedent for it, we can go as far as banning any key move we want on any powerful Pokemon to contribute to its balance. Salamence was bannable material in 4th once it received Outrage, so once we get rid of that, it should be ok?

in what significant way (that is, not 'SD is an item, DV is a move') is banning Dark Void any less acceptable than the Soul Dew clause? The biggest argument against banning specific moves on specific pokemon is that it overcomplicates the ruleset, and it creates a slippery slope (ie, 'Water Pulse Kyogre could be OU!' etc).

Who cares about that. If you're trying to balance a Pokemon rather than the metagame around it, you're already doing something wrong. If a culmination of contributing factors makes a Pokemon broken, it should be banned. There is no need to balance that Pokemon if what it's capable of makes it so that it isn't already. It's a pointless process and opens the window for more "balancing".

 

[domeface]

Please, don't pull that shit on me. Suggested use is exactly what the term implies: it says on the item description that it works with Latios and Latias, but the loophole is, it can be distributed to other Pokemon, so we're not really banning anything that Latias or Latios are naturally capable of.

What? Yes, any pokemon can hold Soul Dew, but the item only works on the Latis... the fact that other pokémon can also hold the item is completely irrelevant when it has no effect on them. It's literally the same as the pokémon holding a Nugget or something.

In this case, only Darkrai can learn Dark Void. Furthermore, Dark Void in and of itself is not a broken move. Better Sleep moves have such poor distribution that the Pokemon using them can't beat their counters even after a couple of free turns. If we ban Dark Void, we can technically say we're just banning the move, but in reality, you're just trying to nerf Darkrai. That's not a good way to go about things.

Only Lati@s can use Soul Dew. Your first point is moot. Also, you haven't explained why banning moves rather than pokemon is a bad way to go about things. If we aim for minimal bans (which IIRC we do according to Philosophy), then banning a move that affects one pokemon is 'less of a ban', so to speak, than banning an actual pokemon.

How about: we don't ban moves to make Pokemon more viable. There is no precident for it. If we set a precedent for it, we can go as far as banning any key move we want on any powerful Pokemon to contribute to its balance. Salamence was bannable material in 4th once it received Outrage, so once we get rid of that, it should be ok?

Not okay. As I have explained before, we should only do outright bans; banning specific combinations of moves on pokemon causes the ruleset to become overcomplicated and confusing. If we were to outright ban Outrage, then it would cripple numerous other pokemon that were not broken with it. Dark Void is in a unique position where we can ban it outright and only affect the viability of one pokémon who is almost certainly broken with it, but may not be without it. This allows us to change one variable on one pokemon without making the ruleset any more complicated.

Who cares about that. If you're trying to balance a Pokemon rather than the metagame around it, you're already doing something wrong. If a culmination of contributing factors makes a Pokemon broken, it should be banned. There is no need to balance that Pokemon if what it's capable of makes it so that it isn't already. It's a pointless process and opens the window for more "balancing".

No it doesn't, because we're not 'removing parts of pokemon' or suchlike, we're banning a move that only one pokemon uses. I realise these are tantamount to the same thing, but the former leaves the door open for removing further parts, while the latter does not; it simply opens the door to banning other moves. But most moves are used by a large number of different pokémon, so a situation where all users are broken with a particular move is very unlikely outside of other signature moves.

You can argue that this differenciation is merely semantic, but nevertheless, it allows us to ban 'less' while not overcomplicating the ruleset, which is surely a good thing, and cannot be replicated with the likes of Outrage etc

 

[fidgety]

No. I really think that that's going too far. Sleep wasn't buffed this gen, it was changed. The sleep counter reset is balanced by the three turn max duration. Not everyone runs hyper offense, so being asleep for 4 turns isn't as bad as it might sound, especially on a bulky pokemon. Outside darkrai, sleep isn't really a problem. It's not even overused or centralizing. It was brought up as a result of your efforts to wedge darkrai into OU, which, IMO, is the same thing as twister/ember reshiram.

Also, do we really want to nerf breloom? Because I sure as hell don't.

what r u talking about encore was shortened not sleep. if sleep was shortened i'm pretty sure serebii would have long since edited thier mechanics page to reflect this which it doesn't i have said page up right now.

 

[SJCrew]

Not okay. As I have explained before, we should only do outright bans; banning specific combinations of moves on pokemon causes the ruleset to become overcomplicated and confusing.

It's not confusing nor is it complicated. I just explained it to you: ban Outrage on Salamence to balance it. Why can't we do that with other Pokemon? Call it the Salamence Clause. Dark Void Clause. Shaymin/Air Slash Cause. You can explain these in one sentence: Salamence is not allowed to have Outrage. Darkrai is not allowed to have Dark Void. Shaymin is not allowed to have Air Slash. These very simple to do and the options can expand limitlessly. Can you not see why we shouldn't opt for this? Banning an item from the Lati twins doesn't mean we should keep going and ban moves from suspects.

It's easier to ban Darkrai for just being the broken one with the sleep move instead of restricting his moveset to balance him. That's one ban, no clause, no political entanglement. Darkrai is banned because he's a broken Pokemon. This is the kind of thing we should be trying to achieve, not "keep everything in OU at all costs".

 

[dragonmaster951753]

Just to toss out there, darkrai learns hypnosis. I already know its no dark void/spore, but you would only be lowering its accuracy when it comes to sleeping, cause i would just take out dark void for hypnosis and get right back to using the exact same tactic.
Darkrai is broken- Dark void, high speed/SpA/ Nasty Plot, amazing coverage, running dark pulse and focus blast alone is amazing and you can drop nasty plot for weakness cover ex Psychic
Shaymin-s broken- You could get rid of its Air slash which is basically its most used move, but he would still be awesome. Shaymin-s just like darkrai would find another way of abusing its ability
Manaphy broken- Tail glow/calm mind/ hydration/100 defs, Manaphy can run wild as almost anything it wants, ban tail glow it has calm mind, ban calm mind it has tail glow, ban them both he becomes a wall and stalls the entire battle with hydration + rest,

Point? You can't nerf any of those pokemon. They are just outright amazing and simply can't be nerfed to the point that they can stay in OU. Dropping Dark void on Darkrai won't solve anything, and doing a blanket ban across all sleep moves with 75% accuracy just sounds like you are butt-hurt from not running ANY pokemon that can either absorb sleep or dodge it (hydration or carrying toxic/fire orb). Status problems are apart of the game and shouldn't be banned for no reason UNLESS the metagame wraps around it, example dropping the sleep cause would make sleep broken, but since we have it its not broken, simple, even Pokemon Stadium understood that.

Let darkrai go to ubers, quit arguing over him, odds are he won't remain in OU anyway so start talking about something more productive, like some of the gen 5 pokemon and abilities that came out.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree with SJCrew that banning individual moves on individual pokemon is somewhere we don't want to go. This is the same as Phillip's absolute disallowment of allowing pokemon+move nominations in the nominations thread.

This is why PR is discussing a more general blanket ban on sleep moves. Also, even if Darkrai is the only pokemon that learns DV, it's not like a blanket ban on Dark Void is out of the question "even if nothing else learns it, we're banning them from using it."

 

[domeface]

It's not confusing nor is it complicated. I just explained it to you: ban Outrage on Salamence to balance it. Why can't we do that with other Pokemon? Call it the Salamence Clause. Dark Void Clause. Shaymin/Air Slash Cause. You can explain these in one sentence: Salamence is not allowed to have Outrage. Darkrai is not allowed to have Dark Void. Shaymin is not allowed to have Air Slash. These very simple to do and the options can expand limitlessly. Can you not see why we shouldn't opt for this? Banning an item from the Lati twins doesn't mean we should keep going and ban moves from suspects.

I don't want a Dark Void clause. I want this:

Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Lugia
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Zekrom

Soul Dew

Sand Veil
Shadow Tag

Dark Void

This banlist doesn't necessarily represent what I actually think should be banned, but merely how different things are banned.

You can argue that your way is just as simple, but you manage to hit the problem with it perfectly: the options can expand limitlessly. This caveat does not apply to this system, since the only bans that would be allowed are straight blanket bans on pokemon/items/abilites/moves.

@Chou Toshio: yeah that's what I'm getting at, banning pokemon/move combinations is far to much of a slippery slope, but in this unique situation it's possible to achieve the same result without opening the whole combination can of worms.

@dragonmaster951753: Sorry, no. Hypnosis is shit.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

How is that above banlist different than a Dark Void Clause? I would assume a Dark Void Clause would state: "The move Dark Void may not be used" and your banlist would state "Dark Void is a banned move". I don't see the difference...

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Well, Dark Void Clause would make it banned in every single tier, just like Double Team in Ubers!




...I still think Darkrai would be broken if we "tweak" him by doing so, though.

 

[fidgety]

Well, Dark Void Clause would make it banned in every single tier, just like Double Team in Ubers!




...I still think Darkrai would be broken if we "tweak" him by doing so, though.

how it's stats are offensively equal 2 alakazam w/ far superior bulk, move pool, typing, + ability.

 

[tubbablubba]

I feel that the darkrai issue is getting extremely complicated.
Everyone (on this thread at least) wants some part of darkrai banned.
More complex banning ideas have been raised.
But I don't think anyone will complain if we just get rid of it completely.
Something about darkrai is clearly broken.
I believe its speed, movepool and ridiculous special attack deserve to get it banned.

 

[deinosaur]

how it's stats are offensively equal 2 alakazam w/ far superior bulk, move pool, typing, + ability.

I believe this is a sad attempt at humorous sarcasm.

Anyway, I believe that Manaphy, Deoxys-A/N, and Shaymin-S should be banned.

Manaphy is not extremely powerful, but instead has access to decent bulk, a good type, and Tail Glow. These things, when combined with Drizzle from Politoed, makes Manaphy a monster. Manaphy has the incredible ability to avoid all forms of status in rain with Hydration. Rain is also incredibly helpful to Manaphy's Water STAB. Contrary to other's beliefs, I believae Manaphy is the broken one, not Rain itself.

Deoxys-A is the most powerful non-setup sweeper allowed by law. It has double 180 attacking stats and a monstrous 150 base speed. Deoxys-N also has 150 speed but 150 attacking stats instead, traded for base 50 defenses. Both are fearsome sweepers that have deep movepools, and the ability to destroy Blissey, a power all special sweepers wish they had, with Psycho Shock.

Shaymin-S is the definition of broken in this metagame. Skymin has incredible 120 Special Attack and 127 base speed. She has a majorly powerful attack in Seed Flare, with an 80% chance to lower your Special Defense 2 levels and the fact that it is a base 120 power STAB move, it is a little much to deal with from a base 120 Special Attack stat. To couple with that, STAB Air Slash, having a 60% chance to flinch, and also being incredibly powerful.

These pokemon are all a little too powerful to be in OU for the time being.

Darkrai is a special case. With Dark Void, it is most likely Uber, but if we take it away, Darkrai is just a setup high-metagame setup sweeper with a little bulk and some speed.

 

[SJCrew]

This banlist doesn't necessarily represent what I actually think should be banned, but merely how different things are banned.

That's not how banlists work. Banning Dark Void as a separate entity suggests Dark Void is broken, which it can't be while better Sleep moves exist and are not considered unbalanced. The only way this proposition would fly is if all Sleep moves are banned on all Pokemon for being overpowered. As long as Darkrai can use Dark Void and still be a grossly effective sweeper after the fact, he's bannable material.

You can argue that your way is just as simple, but you manage to hit the problem with it perfectly: the options can expand limitlessly. This caveat does not apply to this system, since the only bans that would be allowed are straight blanket bans on pokemon/items/abilites/moves.

If you're going to argue with me on principle, your concept still falls flat. You're proposing a blanket ban on a move that only one Pokemon learns (save for Smeargle) while said move is not broken in and of itself. That's not a blanket ban, that's just banning the move from Darkrai using different words. So really, this has absolutely nothing to do with Dark Void, you just don't want Darkrai to be banned. -_-

 

[deinosaur]

That's not how banlists work. Banning Dark Void as a separate entity suggests Dark Void is broken, which it can't be while better Sleep moves exist and are not considered unbalanced.

Alright, this makes sense. However, Dark Void coupled with Bad Dreams on Darkrai pushes Darkrai over the brink of Uber. Without it, Darkrai can be OU, but with it, Darkrai is Uber.

 

[fidgety]

@ blisseyofdoom it isn't sarcasm alakazam is ballenced by poor typing in a meta other than gen 1 horrible bulk especially on the physical end only boosting option being calm mind + limited options (mainly in the support department). darkrai doesn't have these issues nasty plot is much better than calm mind 4 an offensive poke. dark pulse +focus blast is far better coverage than psychic + focus blast. it can take a hit or two + dark void/hypnosis, nightmare, dream eater, taunt, WOW, t-wave, torment what does alakazam have on darkrai encore. 1 move vs. 7 for support/gimmick yea no contest. but really darkrai is like alakazam w/o most of the issues + then a whole heck of a lot more.

edit: it get's hypnosis so your logic vs. sjcrew = fail.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Alright, this makes sense. However, Dark Void coupled with Bad Dreams on Darkrai pushes Darkrai over the brink of Uber. Without it, Darkrai can be OU, but with it, Darkrai is Uber.

But does Dark Void itself make Darkrai Uber? And we can't know whether it still wouldn't be overpowered without Dark Void. That uncertainty is why it's not Dark Void that's the problem, but Darkrai itself.

 

[kingofmars]

For the whole banning dark void issue, ask yourself: is Smeargle broken with dark void? No, he isn't, so by banning dark void, you would be banning a move that's only broken on one pokemon that get's it.

 

[deinosaur]

The way I see it, Darkrai is on the brink of being overpowered. But, with Dark Void it can set itself up easily, and rip through teams with +2. However, removing Dark Void from him allows him to come back to the land where he might not get to set up as easy.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

The way I see it, Darkrai is on the brink of being overpowered. But, with Dark Void it can set itself up easily, and rip through teams with +2. However, removing Dark Void from him allows him to come back to the land where he might not get to set up as easy.

And that's precisely the reason why Darkrai is the problem, and not Dark Void. If you believe that Darkrai can easily rip through teams with a single turn of setup, and that Dark Void simply helps it to get that +2, then that quite clearly shows that Darkrai's ability to sweep is the problem, and not Dark Void. Banning a move is not "what can we take away from this pokemon to make it legal in OU," it's more like "I ragequit every time the move is used because I know I'm going to lose." You can argue that sleep is broken in itself, but arguing that Dark Void is broken simply because it's a reason why Darkrai is so powerful is invalid; the move must be broken in and of itself, and not just be part of the reason a pokemon is Uber.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Even losing Dark Void, Darkrai is still tough. For example, I've seen interesting Darkrai that ran CHOPLE BERRY just to f-over fighters since Chople Berry let's it survive all Mach Punches and no fighter (except really fast ones that are for some reason running Choice Scarf for some reason) will outspeed Darkrai without it. When Darkrai survives Breloom, Breloom can be put to sleep with that Dark Void if it hasn't been used or smacked for the ko by +2. It is only 2 hit koed by Scizor Bullet Punches and it outruns nearly everything else that isn't Uber also (Shaymin, Deoxys) or carrying Scarf (or weather poke).

Sometimes Darkrai have been known to run PSYCHIC. A move that murders Breloom/Hitmontop/Roopushin as they try to kill it with Mach Punch and to their utter surprise, lives and ohkoes back. Since most people rely on Mach Punchers to take Darkrai out, losing one is a grave problem if Darkrai lives and if it is the only thing between you and total Darkrai sweep (+2 Dark Pulse, Psychic, Focus Blast for example) then that is a problem.

It's not just Dark Void that's broken. It's the total package of Darkrai and Dark Void is just a very, very sweet delicious bonus being able to threaten sleep which keeps counter/checks out (because you don't want your Darkrai counter forced to sleep) until Dark Void is used but it technically doesn't have to use it and could be given up for things like Psychic or Substitute to protect it from nasty priority.

 

[lone]

Even losing Dark Void, Darkrai is still tough. For example, I've seen interesting Darkrai that ran CHOPLE BERRY just to f-over fighters since Chople Berry let's it survive all Mach Punches and no fighter (except really fast ones that are for some reason running Choice Scarf for some reason) will outspeed Darkrai without it. When Darkrai survives Breloom, Breloom can be put to sleep with that Dark Void if it hasn't been used or smacked for the ko by +2. It is only 2 hit koed by Scizor Bullet Punches and it outruns nearly everything else that isn't Uber also (Shaymin, Deoxys) or carrying Scarf (or weather poke).

Sometimes Darkrai have been known to run PSYCHIC. A move that murders Breloom/Hitmontop/Roopushin as they try to kill it with Mach Punch and to their utter surprise, lives and ohkoes back. Since most people rely on Mach Punchers to take Darkrai out, losing one is a grave problem if Darkrai lives and if it is the only thing between you and total Darkrai sweep (+2 Dark Pulse, Psychic, Focus Blast for example) then that is a problem.

It's not just Dark Void that's broken. It's the total package of Darkrai and Dark Void is just a very, very sweet delicious bonus being able to threaten sleep which keeps counter/checks out (because you don't want your Darkrai counter forced to sleep) until Dark Void is used but it technically doesn't have to use it and could be given up for things like Psychic or Substitute to protect it from nasty priority.

You seem to be forgetting that darkrai only has 4 move slots, and can't run nasty plot, focus blast, dark pulse, psychic, and dark void all at once, which is why darkrai isn't as deadly as you make it out to be. Sure, he's effective, but once you realize what kind of darkrai it is then its pretty easy to deal with.

Even if it puts something to sleep on the first turn (and dark void is only 80% accuracy, which is not awe inspiring), you can switch to another pokemon and at worst be faced with a darkrai that is a)+2 SpA or b)behind a sub. Specially bulky scizor counters both of these effortlessly, and even non specially bulky ones have a decent chance to win since darkrai relies on the 70% accuracy of focus blast to hurt it. Scizor is just an example as well, as fairly common pokemon counter almost every darkrai set, and even things like tyranitar can counter due to focus blast's awful accuracy.


Moral of the story being, Darkrai is overhyped and underwhelming, and is no more of a threat than rain dance kingdra or sandstorm dory

 

[shrang]

Firstly to whoever said Dark Void Clause would mean it's banned in Ubers, let me remind you of what happened with Soul Dew Clause last gen.

Secondly, banning Dark Void is not the way to solve the problem. Darkrai is still Pokemon who has 125 Base Speed, 135 Base Special Attack, a +2 SpA move and decent defenses. Dark Void is just ONE of the things making Darkrai broken. I always think banning abilities/moves aren't the way to go (I would prefer to see Politoed banned rather than Drizzle, for example), since they are all PART of the package that is the broken Pokemon in question. When a Pokemon is broken, there are many, many factors making it broken, not just the one move or ability. I don't like it when people try to customise Pokemon to try and fit it in with the metagame. If that's the case, ban Dark Void, Nasty Plot and possibly Substitute from Darkrai, and then we might talk.

 

[Machi]

You seem to be forgetting that darkrai only has 4 move slots, and can't run nasty plot, focus blast, dark pulse, psychic, and dark void all at once, which is why darkrai isn't as deadly as you make it out to be. Sure, he's effective, but once you realize what kind of darkrai it is then its pretty easy to deal with.

This is EXACTLY what other people have mentioned earlier on the thread IF Darakai opted not to run Dark Void he'd only gain even more monstrous coverage, meaning he'd still easily be quite a beast with or without Dark Void because of his stats+coverage+access to set up move to easily plow through teams. Being Dark arguably already affords him at least one safe switch in to any psychic attacks that your team may attract - and we know some common pokes that do run a psychic attack such as Starmie, Espeon, Rankurusu, and Lati@s (all of these he outspeeds BTW)- so its still quite easy for him to set up his Nasty Plot (or heck he can just enter on any pokemon that lay down hazards). Loss of Dark Void would not entirely neuter Darakai enough to be a manageable threat. Then you can start arguing about banning Nasty Plot on Darakai so that he could stay on OU but I doubt anyone really ones to get into that, though if by some silly reason that does happen hello SPECS Darakai :P.