np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[domeface]

That's not how banlists work. Banning Dark Void as a separate entity suggests Dark Void is broken, which it can't be while better Sleep moves exist and are not considered unbalanced. The only way this proposition would fly is if all Sleep moves are banned on all Pokemon for being overpowered. As long as Darkrai can use Dark Void and still be a grossly effective sweeper after the fact, he's bannable material.

Erm...

Banning Soul Dew as a separate entity suggests Soul Dew is broken, which it can't be while better boosting items exist and are not considered unbalanced. The only way this proposition would fly is if all similar items (that is Light Ball, DeepSeaTooth, Quick Powder etc) are banned on all Pokemon for being overpowered. As long as Lati@s can hold Soul Dew and still be grossly effective sweepers after the fact, they're bannable material.

...oh wait. Also, about the 'implication' that Dark Void is broken... who actually gives a shit? I mean really, who cares what it 'implies'?

If you're going to argue with me on principle, your concept still falls flat. You're proposing a blanket ban on a move that only one Pokemon learns (save for Smeargle) while said move is not broken in and of itself. That's not a blanket ban, that's just banning the move from Darkrai using different words. So really, this has absolutely nothing to do with Dark Void, you just don't want Darkrai to be banned. -_-

No move, item or ability can ever be broken 'in and of itself'. Soul Dew isn't broken 'in and of itself'; there are plenty of pokemon that if they could hold it would be prefectly fine, and not broken.

Also, those 'different words' are precisely what makes the difference here. If we were to say, 'Darkrai may not use Dark Void' then that opens the door to 'Salamence may not use Outrage' et al. But if we say 'Dark Void may not be used by any pokemon', that simply opens the door to 'Outrage may not be used by any pokemon', which is never going to happen since there are many pokemon that learn Outrage which are completely fine with it. Yes, I am aware that in Dark Void's case the former and latter ways of going about the ban result in the same thing, but the important part is that the first way is absolute and leaves no wiggle room for more complicated bans, whereas the second does. Do you not see the difference? If we outright ban Dark Void, there is no possibility for someone coming along and saying 'emmm can't we ban Outrage on Salamence??' since we've not banned Dark Void on Darkrai, we've banned Dark Void.

Of course this is to do with Darkrai rather than Dark Void. But in my opinion, removing one move from one pokemon's movepool in a way that prevents a slippery slope is 'less of a ban', so to speak, than banning said pokemon outright. And since in Smogon's Philosophy we aim for minimal bans, banning Dark Void would be more desirable than banning Darkrai.

As an aside, I'm fully aware that Darkrai may still be broken without Dark Void; however, I think that Dark Void makes enough of a difference (since it's on basically every Darkrai moveset currently) that it's worth a test to see if it's still broken, rather than using uninformed theorymon to state that it's not worth a test.

 

[fidgety]

You seem to be forgetting that darkrai only has 4 move slots, and can't run nasty plot, focus blast, dark pulse, psychic, and dark void all at once, which is why darkrai isn't as deadly as you make it out to be. Sure, he's effective, but once you realize what kind of darkrai it is then its pretty easy to deal with.

Even if it puts something to sleep on the first turn (and dark void is only 80% accuracy, which is not awe inspiring), you can switch to another pokemon and at worst be faced with a darkrai that is a)+2 SpA or b)behind a sub. Specially bulky scizor counters both of these effortlessly, and even non specially bulky ones have a decent chance to win since darkrai relies on the 70% accuracy of focus blast to hurt it. Scizor is just an example as well, as fairly common pokemon counter almost every darkrai set, and even things like tyranitar can counter due to focus blast's awful accuracy.

Moral of the story being, Darkrai is overhyped and underwhelming, and is no more of a threat than rain dance kingdra or sandstorm dory

darkrai has amazing coverage w/ just dark pulse + focus blast ok i hate fb's accuracy as much as the next guy that doesn't mean tar can stop darkrai since if fb hits tar is dead.
apparently u haven't seen what a good battler can do w/ darkrai if u think it's underwhelming.
Edit:i like how u say that + turn around + say it's comparable to 2 other suspects in terms of power.

 

[forestflamerunner]

baniing dark void on darkrai is opening a whole can of worms. what is to stop people from saying rayquaza with extremespeed is not broken and shouldn't be banned? its too much work. a pokemon is a complete package. ban all of it or ban none of it.

 

[Redjar]

darkrai has amazing coverage w/ just dark pulse + focus blast ok i hate fb's accuracy as much as the next guy that doesn't mean tar can stop darkrai since if fb hits tar is dead.
apparently u haven't seen what a good battler can do w/ darkrai if u think it's underwhelming.
Edit:i like how u say that + turn around + say it's comparable to 2 other suspects in terms of power.

Agreed, just ban darkrai, but Dory is a suspect for being banned? Haha why? He's so frail and is weak to the most common priority. I've never had any problems with Doryuzzu

 

[cosmicexplorer]

No move, item or ability can ever be broken 'in and of itself'. Soul Dew isn't broken 'in and of itself'; there are plenty of pokemon that if they could hold it would be prefectly fine, and not broken.

Soul Dew effectively makes Latios and Latias different pokemon, with effective base Special Attack stats of 219 and 189 when fully invested. When Latias was still OU, it was obvious that Soul Dew made it overpowered, giving it ridiculous Special Attack and Special Defense without any drawbacks. Latias was eventually decided to be overpowered itself, but the split between Soul Dew and non-Soul Dew Latias was very significant. Darkrai can still function without Dark Void, and some sets actually don't use Dark Void. Darkrai uses Dark Void, but its access to a pretty accurate sleep move doesn't make it overpowered.

Again, you can argue that sleep is overpowered in itself, but if that's not being argued, Dark Void is not the main reason Darkrai is overpowered. Darkrai is overpowered because of its massive Speed and Special Attack, with Dark Void being just another reason it's so good. Removing Dark Void from Darkrai is not removing the aspect of the pokemon that breaks it, like Soul Dew did with Latias. Soul Dew constituted such a huge change to the pokemon that it was reasonable to ban it and allow Latias in OU, but even that was reconsidered, as Latias was decided to be overpowered in itself. Dark Void does not constitute the same magnitude of change to Darkrai, and if Darkrai with Dark Void is decided to be Uber, then it should be banned itself, or otherwise we're just changing the pokemon to suit our needs.


EDIT:

Agreed, just ban darkrai, but Dory is a suspect for being banned? Haha why? He's so frail and is weak to the most common priority. I've never had any problems with Doryuzzu

Dory's bulkier than Starmie, and why do you think that those priority moves are so common? It's because without them or Hippowdon, Dory will sweep your team. Even then, it can run a Chople Berry or a Balloon to easily bypass these checks. Dory's incredibly difficult to stop without different weather, or one of its very few checks like Gliscor.

 

[fidgety]

Agreed, just ban darkrai, but Dory is a suspect for being banned? Haha why? He's so frail and is weak to the most common priority. I've never had any problems with Doryuzzu

his 135 atk + 550 max adamant speed in sand 604 if jolly.

 

[JSND]

weak to priority but isnt dead to priority Thats huge.

 

[XienZo]

Doesn't that mean other pokemon that are changed significantly like Pikachu w/ Light Orb (and other major species-specific stat increasers) has to be considered 2 different pokemon regarding tiering and balance?

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

If we're going to ban certain moves on Darkrai to make it OU, or certain abilities on Politoed to make it OU, etc, then that should be done with EVERY Uber Pokemon, in order to make it OU.

That's just my opinion. Why do people think it's okay to nerf Darkrai to make it OU, but it's not okay to nerf Mewtwo to make it OU?

And is Dark Void actually broken? Like, I think Smeargle learns it. Is it broken on Smeargle?

 

[XienZo]

If we're going to ban certain moves on Darkrai to make it OU, or certain abilities on Politoed to make it OU, etc, then that should be done with EVERY Uber Pokemon, in order to make it OU.

That's just my opinion. Why do people think it's okay to nerf Darkrai to make it OU, but it's not okay to nerf Mewtwo to make it OU?

And is Dark Void actually broken? Like, I think Smeargle learns it. Is it broken on Smeargle?

If Dark Void was banned, that would suggest that Dark Void Smeargle is broken.

But not Spore Smeargle, of course.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Doesn't that mean other pokemon that are changed significantly like Pikachu w/ Light Orb (and other major species-specific stat increasers) has to be considered 2 different pokemon regarding tiering and balance?

Pikachu is NU with and without Light Ball, so it's irrelevant.

 

[domeface]

baniing dark void on darkrai is opening a whole can of worms. what is to stop people from saying rayquaza with extremespeed is not broken and shouldn't be banned? its too much work. a pokemon is a complete package. ban all of it or ban none of it.

That's exactly why I'm advocating banning Dark Void outright, not 'Dark Void on Dakrai'. I've gone over this about three times. Please actually read the posts you're responding to before spouting the exact flawed logic I've just countered.

@cosmicexplorer: Your overall argument seems to be that Soul Dew was the thing that broke Lati@s last gen, hence the Soul Dew clause was acceptable, and this does not apply to Dark Void. However, while I won't deny that Dark Void is not the only thing Darkrai has going for it, it's impossible to know whether or not Voidless Darkrai is broken without testing it; I'm not advocating for DV to be banned so Darkrai can be exempt from any future testing; I'm advocating that we remove DV and test whether Darkrai is still broken without it, since Dark Void is a major part of almost everybody's reasoning as to why Darkrai is broken. You may think that Darkrai is still broken without DV, but we cannot know that until we test it. The fact that almost everyone has mentioned Dark Void as a fairy major part of why Darkrai is broken, and the fact that the move is used on almost all common Darkrai sets, is enough to justify at least testing Dark Void before we ban Darkrai.

EDIT:

If Dark Void was banned, that would suggest that Dark Void Smeargle is broken.

But not Spore Smeargle, of course.

Sorry, I don't give a shit what is 'suggests'. Nobody uses Dark Void Smeargle outside of doubles anyway (where it would probably be banned anyway if we ever make our own doubles metagame under Sleep Clause).

If we're going to ban certain moves on Darkrai to make it OU, or certain abilities on Politoed to make it OU, etc, then that should be done with EVERY Uber Pokemon, in order to make it OU.

That's just my opinion. Why do people think it's okay to nerf Darkrai to make it OU, but it's not okay to nerf Mewtwo to make it OU?

And is Dark Void actually broken? Like, I think Smeargle learns it. Is it broken on Smeargle?

Again, I'd appreciate it if you actually read what I fucking wrote instead of spouting flawed bullshit that I've countered several times. We are not banning certain moves on Darkrai, we are banning certain moves. It just happens that every pokemon who uses Dark Void (Smeargle can learn it but never uses it due to the existance of Spore) is broken with it. Just like Soul Dew last gen.
Just in case you missed that, I'll say it again:

I AM NOT SUPPORTING BANNING DARK VOID ON DARKRAI. I AM SUPPORTING BANNING DARK VOID ON EVERYTHING.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Testing non-Void Darkrai sets a VERY dangerous precedent which will waste our time for the rest of the generation.

 

[XienZo]

That's exactly why I'm advocating banning Dark Void outright, not 'Dark Void on Dakrai'. I've gone over this about three times. Please actually read the posts you're responding to before spouting the exact flawed logic I've just countered.

But why would Smeargle with Dark Void be banned? We shouldn't be banning things that aren't broken just because it fits in nicely with our definitions.

 

[domeface]

But why would Smeargle with Dark Void be banned? We shouldn't be banning things that aren't broken just because it fits in nicely with our definitions.

Was Soul Dew Smeargle/Heatran/Scizor/Blissey/Luvisc/anything-other-than-Lati@s broken last gen? No. But it was irrelevant because these pokémon would never run the item anyway, just as Smeargle will never run Dark Void. Banning things that aren't broken is fine if they'd never, ever be used anyway.

EDIT:

Testing non-Void Darkrai sets a VERY dangerous precedent which will waste our time for the rest of the generation.

Not if all we're doing is banning Dark Void outright; if anyone tries to suggest bannning Water Spout/Hydro Pump/Surf on Kyogre or whatever, then we can say, "Is Water Spout Wailord broken? No? Sorry, we're not banning it then."

 

[More Cowbell]

I think that if Darkrai is a suspect, Darkrai should be looked at as a whole. Either ban Darkrai, or leave it altogether. Saying ''but without Dark Void it is just fine in OU'', you can also argue that ''Arceus without ExtremeSpeed and all that jizz'' is OU too. In the case of Soul Dew I could understand as it falls under a part of the Item Clause (it does, right?), but in this case it's a move that is part of the Pokémon, and unique to the Pokémon at that (barring Smeargle, of course).

 

[Ninja_13]

Not if all we're doing is banning Dark Void outright; if anyone tries to suggest bannning Water Spout/Hydro Pump/Surf on Kyogre or whatever, then we can say, "Is Water Spout Wailord broken? No? Sorry, we're not banning it then."

if anyone tries to suggest bannning Dark Void on Darkrai or whatever, then we can say, "Is Dark Void Smeargle broken? No? Sorry, we're not banning it then."

It's irrelevent whether Smeargle won't use Dark Void; actually, it is relevant, since it shows that Dark Void itself isn't broken, because otherwise Smeargle would use it.

 

[domeface]

I think that if Darkrai is a suspect, Darkrai should be looked at as a whole. Either ban Darkrai, or leave it altogether. Saying ''but without Dark Void it is just fine in OU'', you can also argue that ''Arceus without ExtremeSpeed and all that jizz'' is OU too. In the case of Soul Dew I could understand as it falls under a part of the Item Clause (it does, right?), but in this case it's a move that is part of the Pokémon, and unique to the Pokémon at that (barring Smeargle, of course).

Jesus fucking CHRIST.

I AM NOT SUPPORTING BANNING DARK VOID ON DARKRAI. I AM SUPPORTING BANNING DARK VOID ON EVERYTHING.

Also, your point about Soul Dew makes no sense; Item Clause only meant that no two pokemon on your team could use the same item, and it was never a standard clause anyway. It had nothing to do with Soul Dew.

EDIT:

if anyone tries to suggest bannning Dark Void on Darkrai or whatever, then we can say, "Is Dark Void Smeargle broken? No? Sorry, we're not banning it then."

Would Smeargle ever conceivably use Dark Void, at all, for any set, ever, in any circumstance in singles play? No? Okay, it's fine then. Soul Dew [anything but Lati@s] again.

 

[XienZo]

Would Smeargle ever conceivably use Dark Void, at all, for any set, ever, in any circumstance in singles play? No? Okay, it's fine then. Soul Dew [anything but Lati@s] again.

However, items such as Light Orb and Thick Club utilizing variations of those pokemon are completely different from other sets, but they aren't tiered separately.

If anything, both the banning of Dark Void AND the banning of Soul Dew is inconsistant with how everything else is treated.

 

[Ninja_13]

Would Smeargle ever conceivably use Dark Void, at all, for any set, ever, in any circumstance in singles play? No? Okay, it's fine then. Soul Dew [anything but Lati@s] again.

You're right, Smeargle wouldn't use Dark Void. That's because he would use Spore, which is better. Unfortunately, it's not the same as Soul Dew [anything but Lati@s], because Soul Dew doesn't give the same benefits (50% more SA and SD) to everything, while Dark Void does. And if Smeargle DID use Dark Void, he would not be broken, because he's already not broken with the same-but-better Spore. This shows that Dark Void isn't broken, and again, banning a non-broken component to try to make something that's broken with it not broken doesn't sit right with me.

 

[fidgety]

just so u can see how powerful a focus blast off of a +2 darkrai is it's easily a clean 2hko w/ rocks + 1 layer of spikes a 1hko don't even need a calc since i know specks-gar does 46-49% w/ focus blast so logically darkrai @ +2 does 75%+ w/ it's.

 

[Snorlaxe]

i'm pretty against banning moves in general. i think that if you start by banning one move, then it will inevitably lead to banning another move, then banning more abilities (not counting inconsistent because...that shit needs to go). we should aim to play pokemon as purely as we possibly can. i really think that it's not a good idea to try to change/ban things such as moves, because then you're messing with the game itself. that's how i feel on that, at least.

getting on topic, while i agree that dark void is one of the main reasons why darkrai is so intolerable, it is also a huge threat in its own right. base 125 special attack is tremendous, and when boosted by life orb (and even potential nasty plot boosts), its attacks hurt like hell. everyone is so totally fixated on how darkrai is so frightening because it has dark void, but really, it is frightening because it has dark void AND it is a ridiculously threatening sweeper. i personally feel that darkrai should be banned, but not only because it has dark void. there are plenty of other things that make darkrai such a monster; dark void is really just the icing on the cake.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

I disagree with just banning Dark Void. If we ban Dark Void, it is essentially banning a singular move on a singular pokemon, which is exactly what Phil didn't want (move + pokemon banning). Not only that, but "tweaking" a pokemon so that it fits in OU is just ridiculous. Why not allow a level 86 (arbitrary number) Kyogre in OU? How about an Arceus without EVs or a Plate attached or Swords Dance + Extremespeed? This is also a slippery slope that is particularly dangerous; since we can delete moves from a pokemon's learnset, why not add them? Let's give Ampharos Tail Glow! Give Flareon Flare Blitz! Since we can edit a pokemon's moveset, why not edit abilities? What this will end up being is a "Standard" tier where most every pokemon is edited and on equal footing. Is that what we want? I don't think so.

EDIT: Domeface, the only 2 pokemon that can learn Dark Void are Smeargle and Darkrai. Smeargle can Sketch Spore, so why would Smeargle use Dark Void?

 

[cosmicexplorer]

domeface, I think I see where you're coming from, but banning Dark Void on everything is the same as only banning Dark Void on Darkrai. Banning a move must be because the move is too powerful in itself. When Spore, a better sleep move, exists, banning Dark Void for being too powerful makes no sense.

 

[Leman]

If you ban Dark Void you have to ban Spore, because it is simply a better version of Dark Void. There would be no reason not to ban Spore. If the move Dark Void is broken, can we can logically assume that its better clone would be just as broken. You can argue that Spore has poor distribution, but doesn't that then imply that Darkrai itself is broken, not Dark Void, because it matters more which Pokemon its on, not the move itself?