Not really, because you still have the option of running Rain Dance + Damp Rock, which happened in Gen IV.
So, no, it's not the same shit in the end.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
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Not really, because you still have the option of running Rain Dance + Damp Rock, which happened in Gen IV.
So, no, it's not the same shit in the end.
But then you have the Taunt + Tricks that could make your efforts useless. People would be infuriated with the banishment of weather.
So in the end in doomed to have a Electrode + Rain Dance + Damp Rock to use rain because if i use something slower lol taunt ?
Nobody is discussing the banning of weather because nobody is saying that Rain Dance or any other weather move should be banned.
I meant auto weather. Sorry.
Anyways, auto-weather is just a new part of the meta-game. It's not a threat, it's not broken, and it's not difficult to beat. Nattorei and Burungeru alone can stop Rain teams with little to no trouble at all. Tyranitar, Gliscor, Heatran, and Shanderaa have no trouble against the sun. Sand has always had trouble with Skarmory, and now they have to deal with Nattorei. Hail is just...hail. I carry Scizor and Roobushin, so I'm covered there.
Eruufn? Sabley? Voltolos? Trick a scarf after and deal for 7 turns of cloudy skys? Oh no, whatever shall I do against a spherical rain dancer with pitiful defenses?
Yes you are reading too much into it, though you have to admit the votes were a bit lop sided one to the other. Not suggesting anything, just saying. Regardless, we'll see next period what happens I guess. I just think its a foregone conclusion Rain will be gone then, though. I dunno, maybe i'll eat my words...
Considering the fact that any good Rain team would carry something that rips open any Nattorei and Burungeru cores, that doesn't help much. Hell, they could Kabutops, who muscles through those two like nothing, or they can even just overpower the two with repeated assults. Sun does have it a bit harder, but they caan find ways of smashing everything you said and sweeping. It's laughable that you say Sand has trouble with Nattorei when Randorosu can simply smash throuygh him at +2, or 2HKO him without boosting. The real porblem for Sand is fucking Bronzong, resistng the main moves of the Sand sweepers and being able to kill them easily.
I will say that Calm Mind Birijion is the most amazing Poke i've used so far. It finds so many places to set up against most teams, and is able to heal off damage taken with Giga Drain while taking on a large amount of the Rain teams running around these days. I've once 6-0 swept a Sand team with him while he was paralyzed. Also want to say that Gallade has been doing great in this metagame. Its always great fun to Shadow Sneak any Latios who have switched in on Close Combat, expecting me to switch out.
Well, if you have a group of people that's been making policy for a while, they're more likely to vote conservatively than people who haven't. And that applies to like, any bureaucracy, really.
I honestly think that Soul Dew Clause should be looked into though. The only real difference between that and Dark Void is that "one is an item and the other is a move". Yeah, you can say they affect battles differently, but regardless of HOW they do it, the pokemon in question are a lot more powerful with it, and thus potentially more broken, than without it. That's all it comes down to. It doesn't really matter if it's a (species specific) item, move, typing, ability, w/e.
If you're trying to ban any of those, you're ultimately exploiting a loophole in that you can claim to be banning something universally while only limiting a single pokemon. And limiting a single pokemon instead of banning it goes against policy, regardless of how that limit is placed.
I think that for ensure if rain will be banned or not, we must wait the explanation of how will be the next voting method, but honestly i think that baning Drizzle just will trigger other baning mainly Drought, SandThrow and perhaps Shadow Tag, at the end, there will be only Sandstorm, making just a OU 4th gen 2.0 metagame, i think that the correct method is baning Swift Swim, Chlorophile and SandThrow.
Well it's looking like a lot of the Suspect Pokemon from this round will be banned, so we're looking at a completely different metagame. And especially if Manaphy isn't around, I hope you approach this next round of testing in an unbiased manner and don't think of anything as a "forgone conclusion" at this point.
You have a point, though it's interesting that opinions on Inconsistent and Shadow Tag were pretty similar; only for Drizzle was there a huge disconnect between the two groups. Should be interesting to see how things go with the Pokemon bans.
I think someone else said this already, but the problem I see with banning Dark Void as opposed to Soul Dew is exactly what you said: one is an item and one is a move. If you ban an item, you aren't changing anything about the pokemon in question, and aren't really nerfing them. However if I go and ban Dark Void, that is a direct nerf to Darkrai, which I totally hate purely on principal. I hope you all recognize that something is wrong with "How about instead of ever actually banning anything, we just ban the most broken aspect of it so it can stay in OU?"
I also really hate the fact that Smogon now allows Ability blanket bans, because now we have people running around with a precedent for direct nerfs on pokemon instead of just banning the pokemon themselves. Which leads to things like "Ban Dark Void, not Darkrai," and eventually things like "Ban Spacial Rend, not Palkia."
EDIT:
This is going to happen either way. I said this in a post way back, but if we ban Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, and Sand Throw, nobody will use Rain or Sun anymore because basically they are wasting a teamslot for a crappy pokemon. If only Golem had SandStream in Gen IV, do you think you would be seeing any SS at all in Standard OU? Of course not.
To set things straight, I don't think banning Dark Void is acceptable at all.
I believe that keeping Soul Dew Clause is NOT acceptable because THAT is the first step on the slippery slope, not a possible Dark Void ban.
I mean, think about it. With the same general arguments for Soul Dew Clause, you could create a Clause for Dark Void. However, a Dark Void Clause essentially goes against our policies. Thus, we conclude that the Soul Dew Clause goes against our current policies as well.
Sorry for misinterpreting you post :P
I disagree that Soul Dew clause is against our policies. While it does severely hamper their effectiveness, it is not directly nerfing Lati@s. However, because it opens the door for bans on things like Dark Void, and also because it has an extremely localized effect, I do agree that when Soul Dew does become available in Gen V, we should ban Lati@s, not Soul Dew.
I just made a post on the previous page completely refuting the whole idea that the Soul Dew ban was wrong, and that it could not be applied to Dark Void.
I still question the threats of weather. Never had I, well a few times, but it's rarely a problem.
Wait, leave me analize the "crappy pokemons" of 5th gen:
-Tyranitar: A strong and bulky (even bulkier with x1.5 bonus to its sp. def in SS) pokemon that was very popular even before SandThrow (and going farther, even before Sandstream), able to use Pursuit and make much damage with its high attack stat and moves like Crunch, Stone Edge, Superpower and EQ, a good lead able to use SR, a good Scarfer and a obvius threat with good coverage moves.
-Hippowdon: One of the best physical walls of the metagame, it can be very useful for stall teams, it can use SR, Roar, Yawn and Slack Off, and it can also boost its both defenses with Stockpile or use a STAB EQ for some damage.
-Politoed: A few faster than Tyranitar, it can use an double STAB Boil Over (or, if you prefer more power in exchange of the probability to burn your oponnent you can use Surf or Hidropump) while it is in the rain and anyway a water move with x2.25 bonus of damage isn´t nothing to laugh at, it can use Hypnosis or Encore making it sometimes a very annoying pokemon, it can also sometimes resist strong physical attacks and make a KO in return, it get good coverage with Boil Over, Ice Beam and Filler (HP electric/grass or Focus Blast), and the Water type have good resistances.
-Ninetales: A good speed and sp. att., x2.25 of bonus for its offensive fire moves while it is in the sun, Will-o-wisp, Hypnosis, Nasty Plot, Psycho Shock, Confuse Ray, Calm Mind, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Solar Beam and it can also use a Balloon for solving its weakness to Ground (the only bad thing is it weakness to SR, it lack of resistances and it frailness, a synergical teammate can solve it).
-Abomasnow: An elemental combination that can be useful for resisting Water and Ground attacks, two 120 base stab moves, a priority move, and two decent offensive stats, it can do a good work with Leech Seeds and Sub-punchs and it have some other moves like EQ, Focus Blast and Gigadrain, it is too weak to SR and have some important other weaknesses but nothing that can´t be fixed with a good teammate with RapidSpin.
Now, seriusly speaking, anyway, baning Swift Swim, Chlorophile and Sandthrow, is obviously more reasonable than baning auto-weather abilities, in every way.
So if we don´t use a pokemon with Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/ Sand Throw weather becomes shit ?
Let me remind you of something:
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Shameless copypaste from Bulbapedia
Intense sunlight
Effect: Increases the power of Fire-type moves by 50%, weakens the power of Water-type moves by 50%. Allows SolarBeam to be used instantly, lowers accuracy of Thunder and Windstorm to 50%. Causes Moonlight, Synthesis, and Morning Sun to recover 2/3 of max HP (full HP in Generation II), causes Growth to raise Attack and Special Attack two stages each*. Activates the following abilities: Chlorophyll, Dry Skin, Flower Gift, Forecast, Leaf Guard, Solar Power. Changes Weather Ball to a Fire-type move and doubles its power, Castform to its Sunny form, Cherrim to its Sunshine form, and reduces the chance of Pokémon becoming frozen. Can be lengthened from 5 to 8 turns with the use of the Heat Rock.
Heavy rain
Effect: Increases the power of Water-type moves by 50%, weakens the power Fire-type moves by 50%, causes SolarBeam to only deal half of its normal damage, and allows Thunder and Windstorm to bypass accuracy check and, in Pokémon Diamond and Pearl, to hit through Protect and Detect 30% of the time. Causes Moonlight, Synthesis, and Morning Sun to recover ¼ of max HP. Activates the following abilities: Dry Skin, Forecast, Hydration, Rain Dish, Swift Swim. Changes Weather Ball to a Water-type move and doubles its power, and Castform to its Rain form. Also prevents Pokémon from exploding in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon. Can be lengthened from 5 to 8 turns with the use of the Damp Rock.
Sandstorm
Effect: Damages Pokémon not of the Rock-, Ground-, Steel-type which don't have Sand Veil, Sand Paddle, Sand Power, Dust Proof, or Magic Guard; and raises the Special Defense of all Rock-types by 50%. Causes Moonlight, Synthesis, and Morning Sun to recover ¼ of max HP and SolarBeam to deal only half of its normal damage. Activates the following abilities: Sand Veil and Sand Paddle. Pokémon with the Sand Power ability also have the power of their Rock-, Ground-, and Steel-type moves increased by 30%. Changes Weather Ball to a Rock-type move and doubles its power, but does not change Castform's form. Can be lengthened from 5 to 8 turns with the use of the Smooth Rock.
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So according to your words all those effects arent worth in the hypothethical case Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/ Sand Throw were banned ?
Its funny how everything keeps going around in circles.
I think PERMANENT Weather is broken. Rain/Sand is dominating but they couldn't go because then Sun would be horrible as well and if Hail was alone, have fun facing Kyurem and Hail Stallers. But Rain can defeat Nattorei and Toxicroak and push through their counters. Nattorei gets 2 hit koed by Life Orb Ludicolo for example or Rain can use Virijion (which also happens to be an even better anti-rain counter than Nattorei) to smack you. Qwilfish is amazingly underrated and has the fastest D-bond and doesn't worry as much about priority. Kabutops also beats Nattorei that switch in and so does Poliwrath. Toxicroak does have weak defenses and is potentially ohkoed by Swords Dance Kabutops, Huntail, or something.
Sun does have things like Exeggutor, Venasaur, Hidiharuma, Mebjuka, which are threatening.
And all the inducers have alternative abilities. Tyranitar is still a good pokemon even without the Special Defense increase and it isn't like their alternative abilities are completely unuseable. And it isn't as hard to set up weather if all auto-weather is gone (because auto-weather makes trying to set up weather the old fashioned way moot for the most part) since you do have Mischievious Heart Weather users (Tornelos, Voltlos, Sableye, Erufuun....), Mew, traditional things...all the weather would still be viable but it could potentially be stalled out if it's only going 5-8 turns which isn't possible in permanent.
I think PERMANENT Weather is broken. Rain/Sand is dominating but they couldn't go because then Sun would be horrible as well and if Hail was alone, have fun facing Kyurem and Hail Stallers. But Rain can defeat Nattorei and Toxicroak and push through their counters. Nattorei gets 2 hit koed by Life Orb Ludicolo for example or Rain can use Virijion (which also happens to be an even better anti-rain counter than Nattorei) to smack you. Qwilfish is amazingly underrated and has the fastest D-bond and doesn't worry as much about priority. Kabutops also beats Nattorei that switch in and so does Poliwrath. Toxicroak does have weak defenses and is potentially ohkoed by Swords Dance Kabutops, Huntail, or something.
Sun does have things like Exeggutor, Venasaur, Hidiharuma, Mebjuka, which are threatening.
And all the inducers have alternative abilities. Tyranitar is still a good pokemon even without the Special Defense increase and it isn't like their alternative abilities are completely unuseable. And it isn't as hard to set up weather if all auto-weather is gone (because auto-weather makes trying to set up weather the old fashioned way moot for the most part) since you do have Mischievious Heart Weather users (Tornelos, Voltlos, Sableye, Erufuun....), Mew, traditional things...all the weather would still be viable but it could potentially be stalled out if it's only going 5-8 turns which isn't possible in permanent.
1) Gliscor makes a great staller in the sand, due to defenses + toxic heal + fling, no need to run sand veil
2) Garchomp had a broken set last gen, that set is still good now, we will see what happens to chomp in the future
3) sand power dory? what are you talking about? Clearly sand throw dory is far better and is the real threat, try discussing that.
Sand was already mentioned about being overcentralized last gen, now with sand throw added with dory it basically pushed it over the top, there was a line drawn and it finally crossed it.
Rain dance teams aren't broken if sand isn't.
While rain has several abusers and sand only has a handful, we must remember that not all of these abusers are any real good even under the rain. Narrowing it down, the threats you'll face under the rain are pretty much limited to kingdra, kabutops, ludicolo, and qwilfish. There are also omastar and flaotzel. But they both seem shafted in favor of other options.
Rock/Water isn't exactly a favorable typing to attempt a boost under, especially when your boosting move makes you more susceptible to common priority than you already are. The same can be said for Abagoora, but I've yet to see a rain team use his shell break sets.
Rock/Water isn't exactly a favorable typing to attempt a boost under, especially when your boosting move makes you more susceptible to common priority than you already are. The same can be said for Abagoora, but I've yet to see a rain team use his shell break sets.
Nothing likes boosted Hydro Pumps.
Shedinja walls all of kingdra's sets, won't have to worry about residual weather damage, and can easily be kept alive with proper spin support.
On just a slightly more serious note, I've seen Nattorei carry sunny day to help combat rain teams. Admittedly, nothing likes taking boosted 120 BP attacks from a type with a only three resistances. In the same way, nothing likes taking specs draco meteors from salamence, sazandora, or lati@s.
On just a slightly more serious note, I've seen Nattorei carry sunny day to help combat rain teams. Admittedly, nothing likes taking boosted 120 BP attacks from a type with a only three resistances. In the same way, nothing likes taking specs draco meteors from salamence, sazandora, or lati@s.
How is auto-weather broken? You have the weather rather than using a move? Is that much to complain about? It's the fact that people refuse to believe that weather teams can be dealt with, they refuse to build teams to correspond with the 5th gen metagame, and people refuse to accept the new metagame itself. Everyone was so comftorable with the opponent having to use a move, but it's just not like that anymore. The common speed ability users are weak to priority anyway. Even if, say, Kingdra isn't, there's always Nattorei and the beloved steel types to deal with them.
Vaporeon does :naughty: And specially defensive Abomasnow doesn't really mind either.
Rain does have more abusers, but the biggest difference is that you can have a team full of decent swift swimmers but not of sand throwers.
Good Swift Swimmers: Kabutops, Ludicolo, Kingdra, Omastar, and Gorebyss.
Good Sand Throwers: Doryuuzu, Sandslash
Other good rain abusers: Boruturusu, Zapdos, Jolteon
Other good sand abusers: Landlos, Tyranitar
They're many more swift swimmers, and some more sand throwers, but they're not very good. I probably missed some good ones in the others section though.
I really think the problem is less that auto-weather is fully broken but that it is very overcentralizing.
Tell me a Steel type that can actually handle them.
FYI,Water is neutral on Steel. Nattorei is the best for it,but even then,he can't survive against 3 Swift Swimmers.
Use Shedinja?
That's crossing the line already. We're now forced to use a mon that is already super hard to fit onto a team,and adding it just for Rain teams...wtf?
You don't have to worry about SS or Hail killing you,but there's Toxic(From Vaporeon),there's Stealth Rock,Spikes,Toxic Spikes,and finally,you could be put to sleep by Poli's Hypnosis.
No matter how you look at it,if you're forced to use a mon from an incredibly small list(What is it,like 3 viable ones?),something's wrong.
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