5th Gen Concept Theoreymoning

[Raj]

Why not? Why shouldn't we encourage all possibilities? I think it's foolish to make something so customized that it only fits a single purpose or is just plain artificial. That's not what Game Freak does.. and why should we emulate anything other than that? That's exactly what happened last generation. CaP got ahead of itself and rather than allowing things to settle and piece together, the community forced things to fit. It didn't work well. We created a game that could very well be completely independent of other Pokemon, with CaPs being clearly superior (standalone) than the majority of other Pokemon. We should be more clearly emphasizing what has already been provided to us instead of making up a bunch of shit like the CaPs before.

 

[Stormbuster]

Why not? Why shouldn't we encourage all possibilities? I think it's foolish to make something so customized that it only fits a single purpose or is just plain artificial. That's not what Game Freak does.. and why should we emulate anything other than that? That's exactly what happened last generation. CaP got ahead of itself and rather than allowing things to settle and piece together, the community forced things to fit. It didn't work well. We created a game that could very well be completely independent of other Pokemon, with CaPs being clearly superior (standalone) than the majority of other Pokemon. We should be more clearly emphasizing what has already been provided to us instead of making up a bunch of shit like the CaPs before.

Are you saying we should forgo the concept process altogether? We're supposed to be learning something from these projects, not just putting in a pokemon that does an ok job in Ou. Your concept is not bad by any means. If we could make a pokemon that supported Ninetails, Politoed, and Abomasnow, we would learn a lot about which weather was better. But let's take a look at that task:

Ninetails would want protection from rock moves first and foremost, stealth rock being it's biggest problem, wish and rapid spin support would help it. Ninetails is the most frail out of all the weather starters, so it would appreciate Light Screen or Reflect too. But then again, a lot of pokemon would like a partner with good bulk, rapid spin, wish, dual screens, and resistence to rock.

Politoed does not have the same problems as ninetails, due to having better defenses I've seen it take T-bolts like a champ. Perhaps it misses out on reliable recovery, but it is a solid contender. Wish support, a partner with physical defense, and maybe an electric immunity. Reflect could be useful. However, I'm sure that other bulky waters would enjoy the wishes and defense boosts as well.

Abomasnow has decent bulk, but horrible typing, being severely weak to fire, steel, fighting and rock, which are all over the place. It would definitly need a partner to counter fire attacks, which could be accomplished using flash fire. Most hail teams tend to run Heatran though, and I don't think we want Abomasnow's support to end up as Heatran with wish. Again, dual screens would help it set itself up for possible subseeding, and wish would relieve the damage from wood hammer. Apart from that it needs a partner who can take down scizor, along with fighting types and users of stone edge. Froslass takes care of the fighting types for hail teams, so that isn't major, but a resistence to rock, fire, wish, rapid spin, dual screens. Pretty much everything Ninetails wanted.

So in the end we end up with something similar to a Defensive Heatran with a Support Movepool. I'm sure there are othe possiblities for typing, but something tells me that it will end up as a defensive support pokemon, and those screens and wishes are going to be able to help better pokemon than these three. The problem is that none of them resist fighting, and one is weak to it, meaning we can't exactly support them well if our poke is weak to it. Meaning it has to be at least neutral, meaning it could probably be used to support T-tar.

 

[Chou Toshio]

5th Gen "Bulky Water"

In 4th Gen, I constantly complained about the lack of any answers to bulky water pokemon. With few weaknesses, none exploitable and excellent STAB, it seemed that having a "bulky water" would forever be a universal concept, found on almost every team from full offense to full stall, and almost 1/5 of all of OU's species were water pokemon.

I never imagined how far a single pokemon would eliminate that. Nattorei has single-handedly expunged the universal bulky water from the metagame, and water pokemon rarely appear outside of offensive rain teams. With its resistances to Water / Electric / Grass, neutrality to Ice, Nattorei can switch into bulky water pokemon with impunity. Furthermore, with its terrific bulk and support movepool in Spikes, SR, T-Wave and Leech Seed, allowing Natto to enter the battlefield will always have (very painful) lasting repercussions. Simply having a bulky water pokemon has become a liability, when one of the biggest attractions of bulky waters previously was a complete lack of liabilities (oh no, weak to toxic spikes, boo-hoo).

You'll see burungeru from time to time, but that's not because it's a good water type but because all the other ghosts are shit-- and frankly, buru is also natto's bitch, and a serious team liability.

This concept is to create a bulky water-type that can do what bulky waters did: act as both utility tank, and bulky check to many metagame threats without burdening its team.

It should be able to do the following:
-Move in and out of the battlefield with relative ease
-Pose as a relatively dangerous threat to many top-offensive pokemon (ala krillowatt), including enemies like Landlos, Terrakion, latias and Doryuuzu.
-Not pose a liability to the rest of its team (ie. carrying one does not result in you ending up with a field full of spikes or a team full of paralyzed pokemon), in other words it has some way of not being Nattorei's bitch.
-It should accomplish this WITHOUT a gimmicky move like HP Fire . . .

Water has always been an incredible general tank type, both offensive and defensively. It is mind blowing that a single pokemon could almost stamp the concept flat. I'd like to see if a bit of re-design couldn't revitalize it.


Whether we use the above concept or another, I think a concept that would still be relevant regardless of ruling on current top suspects would be a wise (read nice and "safe") choice for the first project with metagame data about a meta with the highest chances of big bans. Even though Nattorei is one of the most dominant pokemon in the meta, it ain't going anywhere soon.

 

[peng]

Concept: Dragon Punchbag

Description: A Pokemon that is capable of beating the high-usage dragon-types in OU and still be useful for the rest of the battle. This Pokemon will fill a niche that is: 'reusable Dragon Counter'.

Justification: There are currently 7 common Dragon-types: Garchomp, Ononokusu, Sazandora, Latios, Latias, Salamence, and Kingdra (Flygon, Kyurem, Altaria and Kurimugan aren't as common as the above). If OU is going to be a similar size as last generation, Dragons will likely make-up around 1/6 of OU. There is currently no single Pokemon which can beat all of these Dragons without being left easily susceptible to revenge-killing by another dragon.

Questions

• Would the presence of a 'Dragon Punchbag' decrease the viability of Dragons at all?
• Would Dragons be more commonly paired with other Pokemon which can break this 'Dragon Punchbag'?
• Would the 'Dragon Punchbag' be so bulky that it would see more use outside of its designed function?
• Would the 'Dragon Punchbag' replace Nattorei, Skarmory and Bronzong's common roles on defensive teams?

Explanation
Pokemon such as Nattorei, Skarmory, and Bronzong are all capable of beating some of these Dragons, but not all of them. All 3 are ruined by Trick users. Nattorei is KOd by most Fire-type attacks from the Dragons outside of Rain, and is set-up fodder against Garchomp (or to all of them if it lacks Thunder Wave). Skarmory can only take Specs Draco Meteors from the likes of Specs Latios if it runs a heavily SpDef-based EV Spread, which makes it much more susceptible from +2 Outrages from the likes of Garchomp and Ononokusu. It is also wrecked by CM Latias, who can Roar before Skarmory can whirlwind. Bronzong's only course of action is Hidden Power [Ice], which does little damage against most Dragons unless you compromise your Bulk for some SpA EVs, or Explosion, which with the nerf this Generation, won't be KOing the bulkier dragons. Therefore, none of these Pokemon are capable of stopping pairings such as Ononokusu + Garchomp, or Latias + Latios, as they are all sufficiently weakened after the first set-up that they cannot stop the second Pokemon from sweeping. This CAP would be able to beat these dragons whilst still having enough HP left to beat another dragon later in the game.

 

[cco]

Well, I've noticed that, like many other people, the biggest thing this generation is Weather. But I think that there's more than that. Look past, and you see that one of the biggest discussion topics is Inconsistent.(Probably spelled that wrong but whatever) the things that are causing a lot of discussion are Passive Abilities all that you have to do is keep a Pokemon in and alive and let it's ability do work, work which could lead you and your team to victory. Therefore I'm putting together the suggestion that we attempt to build a
Consistent CAP

The CAP would be based off of situational control, it would have a reliable means to discourage the use of Pokemon who just sit around, as well as those who simply pop in and out to create their weather affects. This could be achieved through status, hazard laying, ability, or good STAB. But at the end of the day, he's there to force opponents to remove him before they can continue with their strategy.

Questions to be answered are.

How can weather and Inconsistent teams react when their ability to initially execute their strategy is removed?
Will this lower the usage of weather or Inconsistent?
How can Weather/Inconsistent react to remove this Pokemon? How can it be countered without moving away from using Weather.
Might it lead to a rise of teams which use Weather not from the start of battle, but only when they're trying to execute a sweep etc?


That's probably not the best concept posted thus far, but it's my first and I'm rather proud of it.

 

[mf]

5th Gen "Bulky Water"

Slowbro fits most of your criteria... Flamethrower from base 100 SpA is a reasonable deterrent to Natto, and Bro has the bulk to withstand many physical hits... Of course, with the TSpikes/Uturn/Pursuit weaknesses, it is not a gamebreaker but it can perform the bulky water role well in Gen 5. It can also set up both types of Screens which is a fairly useful utility. Also it is a great Trick Room user, which shuts down most of the sweepers you mentioned! Psychic is a pretty decent STAB to have with all the Fighters in OU at the moment, and as such Slowbro is a fantastic Roob counter too.

Roar Gyarados is also reasonable, not being weak to Power Whip and being able to send Natto flying when it comes in.

 

[zyrefredric]

Here are a few concepts I can come up with for now:

1. we should try making a CAP that tames down the weather directly (Cloud Nine, countering inducers and/or sweepers), or indirectly (by bringing HAIL into the fray)
2. Field Control: A pokemon that can excel in any field situations. Field effects would be the following:
   • weather (sun, rain, sandstorm, hail)
   • Gravity
   • Trick Room
   • Magic Room
   • Wonder Room
   
   Disregard rest of post after this since they are mostly fanboy wishes ^^
   .
   .
   
3. And in line with the introduction of the new "Room" field effects, I've been thinking of a custom move (which I know must be avoided at all costs, but I just need to share it, it's making me too excited!):
   
   Mytic Room - The type resistances and weaknesses of all pokemon on the field are reversed. Type immunities remain. Last for 5 turns.
   
   Now this move alone will screw over a lot of pokemon and will change our notion of an offensive/defensive typing. For example:
   .
   • Nattorei (grass/steel) will be 2x weak to normal, water, electric, psychic, rock, ghost, dragon, dark and steel; 4x weak to grass; immune to poison; 2x resists fighting; and 4x resists fire.
     .
   • Abomasnow (grass/ice) will 4x resist fire; 2x resist fighting, poison, flying, bug, rock, steel; and be 2x weak to water, electric, grass and ground.
     .
   • EdgeQuake and BoltBeam will be resisted by A LOT, while Grass/Poison will have perfect unresisted type coverage!
     .
4. And to share another fantasy of mine, how about a custom item!
   
   {type} Mutagen - Can only be held by pokemon with one type only (no dual types). Has the following effects:
   • Raises the power of same-type moves by 10% when this item is held.
   • Adds a secondary typing to the holder same as the mutagen's type, provided that the holder has a currently known move of that type.
   • Provided that the typing change was successful, the holder's ability is changed to Mutant, which is a watered down Inconsistent, in that it raises either of the five stats (Atk, SpA, Def, SpD, and Spe) by ONE stage only, and lowers another one stage also (no net gain, and no evasion boosts, so not ban-worthy right?)
   
   So basically there are 16 mutagen items, one for each type except normal, so there's Water Mutagen, Fire Mutagen, etc. What this does is that it gives unbelievable variety to the metagame! Those unreleased type combos are now possible!
   • Choice Scarf Rock/Dragon Rampardos with Outrage!
   • The infamous Ghost/Steel defensive in Registeel with Shadow Claw! (Which, ironically, is screwed by "Mystic Room")
   • Dual-STAB Flare Blitz/Wild Bolt Arcanine!
   
   The possibilities are endless! Oh the metagame will be so chaotic indeed!

 

[Stormbuster]

Here are a few concepts I can come up with for now:

1. we should try making a CAP that tames down the weather directly (Cloud Nine, countering inducers and/or sweepers), or indirectly (by bringing HAIL into the fray)
2. Field Control: A pokemon that can excel in any field situations. Field effects would be the following:
   • weather (sun, rain, sandstorm, hail)
   • Gravity
   • Trick Room
   • Magic Room
   • Wonder Room
   Disregard rest of post after this since they are mostly fanboy wishes ^^
   .
   .

Disregarding the rest of the post your concepts seem to be things people have mentioned before. A counter to weather, and a pokemon that works well in all weather. The difference between your second concept and the on I mentioned earlier is the inclusion of gravity and the rooms. The trouble with being able to use trick room effectively also means you would need it to function at all though. So if we made it incredibly slow, it would probably only ever see use on hail sandstorm or trick room teams. I think if we did make a concept like that, we should focus soley on weather or on the three rooms. Gravity benefits everything that can run a move with less than perfect accuracy and doesn't float, so it's hard to really justify basing an entire concept around it.

In short, abusing every field effect at once is far too confusing and difficult to accomplish.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Slowbro fits most of your criteria... Flamethrower from base 100 SpA is a reasonable deterrent to Natto, and Bro has the bulk to withstand many physical hits... Of course, with the TSpikes/Uturn/Pursuit weaknesses, it is not a gamebreaker but it can perform the bulky water role well in Gen 5. It can also set up both types of Screens which is a fairly useful utility. Also it is a great Trick Room user, which shuts down most of the sweepers you mentioned! Psychic is a pretty decent STAB to have with all the Fighters in OU at the moment, and as such Slowbro is a fantastic Roob counter too.

Ok, I'll be more specific and say "without using a fire attack." One of the beauties of having bulky water tanks was that they could get excellent hits on many enemies just by throwing around their STAB water, and maybe Ice and/or electric/grass-- thus freeing up move slots for some nice utility attacks. Fire has terribly redundant coverage with water (water hitting everything fire hits at least neutral, except for grass)-- it's like being forced to use Brick Break Garchomp or Doryuuzu.

Also consider Slowbro's 4th Gen situation-- despite having excellent stats (and recovery too!) slowbro didn't see OU play. Why? I'm sure Scizor's U-Turn had a lot to do with it, but for both Milotic and Slowbro, the bigger issue was that they didn't have anything to offer the team in terms of support (except for being tanky). Vaporeon (wish), Swampert (SR/Roar), Tentacruel (Rapid Spin/T-Spikes) all had just that much more utility, while Suicune kept a constant threat to sweep. That gave them much more utility than Slowbro or Milotic-- that little move pool problem hasn't changed.

I guess Slowbro could try Calm Mind but let's face it-- it's not getting anywhere with Calm Mind / Recover / Flamethrower + 1 Coverage move . . .

Roar Gyarados is also reasonable, not being weak to Power Whip and being able to send Natto flying when it comes in.

It's ok (if ok is good enough). Natto can still switch in on anything other than roar and setup spikes/sr, and it's not like Natto's all that afraid of switching in and out of battle (while Gyara, with its SR weak, certainly is).

Anyway, just lobbing that concept out there for consideration.

 

[min min]

Well, I've noticed that, like many other people, the biggest thing this generation is Weather. But I think that there's more than that. Look past, and you see that one of the biggest discussion topics is Inconsistent.(Probably spelled that wrong but whatever) the things that are causing a lot of discussion are Passive Abilities all that you have to do is keep a Pokemon in and alive and let it's ability do work, work which could lead you and your team to victory. Therefore I'm putting together the suggestion that we attempt to build a
Consistent CAP

The CAP would be based off of situational control, it would have a reliable means to discourage the use of Pokemon who just sit around, as well as those who simply pop in and out to create their weather affects. This could be achieved through status, hazard laying, ability, or good STAB. But at the end of the day, he's there to force opponents to remove him before they can continue with their strategy.

Questions to be answered are.

How can weather and Inconsistent teams react when their ability to initially execute their strategy is removed?
Will this lower the usage of weather or Inconsistent?
How can Weather/Inconsistent react to remove this Pokemon? How can it be countered without moving away from using Weather.
Might it lead to a rise of teams which use Weather not from the start of battle, but only when they're trying to execute a sweep etc?


That's probably not the best concept posted thus far, but it's my first and I'm rather proud of it.

Since new abilities are discouraged, maybe a bulky Perish Song user fits the bill? Give it Cloud Nine or a Mischievous Hearted Hail, along with some typing that allows it to stand up to Sand, Rain and Sun sweepers, and you might be set.

 

[Universal Berry]

Throwing out ideas:

-Trace + 90 base spe stat + good offenses = awesome weather counter.

Copy the ability, stat boost, sweep. It would SCARE people. like:

"Hmm, let's see new team: OH YEAH TAR AND THE MOLE AND YOU GOT IT. Oh fuck I forgot 'bout <CAP1> as my strategy could hit me back."

The good thing about this vs Air Lock is that AL stops weather (just during the time the user is in btw) but Trace completely screws over about any weather strategy.

-Dory of the Hail.

I've seen many talk about this one but sincerely it just makes the problem worse because 1. a new weather to deal with yay. 2. Other weathers are still dominant.

OK OK maybe others have given these ideas but im way too lazy to read through the 6 pages sorry.

EDIT: Continuing the post, ill just throw out my concept idea.

We are all observing our little metagame going wild with weathers and everybody has been swept by either Kingdra or Dory at least fifty times. Many are complaining about it and we see "DORY FOR UBERS" being thrown around daily. Of course we can't make such a thing happen but let's face it: Even if gen V brought us new Cloud Nine users, most of them (all of them) are too poor in stats or typing to fit the bill as a universal weather counter. Thus my concept:

Concept:Weather Payback

Justification: Yeah, yeah, not original at all, but Gen V really needs it. Weather is completely destroying/unbalancing the metagame as a few people said it already with great examples. The pokémon will be designed to abuse the opponent weather (and weather sweepers) by using them as set-up fodders/using their ability/negating their ability etc. The pokémon will also have to be able, of course, to perform out of that role to retain a competitive usefulness.

Questions to be answered:

- If such a Pokémon existed, would weather become actually dangerous to use and thus see a usage reduction?
- Would such a Pokémon be able to perform outside of the role it would be designed for?

- Can a simple Pokémon rebalance Gen V, thus making it more stable and fun(cuz that's what Pokémon is all about i'm I right?)?
- Linking from another concept:Would other low-tiers Pokémon could be used on weather teams specifically to counter >CAP1>?

 

[Fusxfaranto]

Concept: High HP Sweeper

Description: A very offensive pokemon that would perform exceedingly well at high HP percentages, but would be considerably weaker at lower health levels.

Justification: There is not really a pokemon that has this sort of niche, aside from maybe Archeos (which is not very OU-viable). It would serve to see if this kind of strategy that's weak to several very common things (namely priority, entry hazards, and sandstorm) could still be viable.

Questions:

• Would this pokemon boost usage of entry hazards to limit its sweeping potential, or would it bring in more priority instead?
• Assuming this pokemon would consistently use Eruption and Water Spout, it would be walled by most dragon types. Would this lead to more use of bulky dragon types?
• If it were using Water Spout and Eruption, it would have perfect coverage against most sandstorm teams. However, by nature, it would also be weak to sandstorm. Which side would prevail overall?

Explanation: To start, such a pokemon would have to have Eruption and Water Spout. Dictating moves in a concept is generally bad, but those moves are the keystone to this kind of pokemon. For ability, there are two routes: giving it an ability that hinders it at low health (such as Timid/Faint of Heart, which would most likely limit it to one ability), or that helps it at high health (such as Sturdy or Multiscale). It wouldn't really be dependent on type, but fire type would suit it very well, for STAB Eruption and a Stealth Rock weakness. Of course, it is more important to discuss what not to give it; it could pull off a ferocious RestTalk set, so not giving it one of those moves could help to balance it. Another option to consider is whether to give it instant recovery or not; I imagine Synthesis/Moonlight/Morning Sun would fit well with the sandstorm weakness. Unfortunately, this concept is not very broad, but it's overall quite unique.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Ok, I'll be more specific and say "without using a fire attack." One of the beauties of having bulky water tanks was that they could get excellent hits on many enemies just by throwing around their STAB water, and maybe Ice and/or electric/grass-- thus freeing up move slots for some nice utility attacks. Fire has terribly redundant coverage with water (water hitting everything fire hits at least neutral, except for grass)-- it's like being forced to use Brick Break Garchomp or Doryuuzu.

Tentacruel, then?

Liquid Ooze is a pretty big deterrent to Nattorei, Power Whip isn't super effective, and isn't doing anything if Tenta burns Nattorei with Boiling Water. It even has Rapid Spin to stop Nattorei Spiking up on it (which also happens to remove Leech Seed as well, which isn't terribly helpful, but if you're running Clear Body, then yeah)

And Tentacruel isn't exactly competitively challenged, either. It's still one of the best Roobushin counters in the game with a defensive spread, which makes it pretty valuable, and also checks a fair amount besides. It also has Acid Bomb, which is a) a useful pseudohazing tool and b) can actually allow Tenta to become an offensive threat.

So, yeah, I can't think of what could actually fit your concept better than Tentacruel. It still checks loads, it isn't a liability, Nattorei can't really beat it, and it's a useful utility Pokemon besides.

 

[tennisace]

What about a pokémon with the ability to nullify all other pokémon's abilities? It'd be kind of like Mummy except not crap. You could use it as a weather counter, a solution to Magic Guard pokémon on stall teams... etc. It could be pretty sweet. Just a wild guess, though.

I don't think you guys know what a concept is or should be. A concept isn't an ability, or a type of Pokemon, or something that dictates a part of the process. It's an idea. It's broad. It's not specific in the least. The closest thing to compare it to is a role in the metagame. Cloud Nine mixed sweeper is the exact opposite of a concept, its a fan-made mon that just needs art. A concept is something like "Kingdra of the Sun", where you can achieve it in an almost infinite number of ways at any point in the polls. Cloud Nine mixed sweeper means: Cloud Nine as the sole ability, high and even special attack and attack, high speed, and good coverage moves. That isn't a concept, thats most of a Pokemon.

I've been reading through the concepts, and I'll expand on ones I think are fairly viable. Just know that any "anti-metagame" concept doesn't work as intended usually. Focus concepts more on semi-defined roles a Pokemon could play in the metagame.

 

[bubbly]

I was thinking about power creep recently, and a LOT of it which is apparent in the 5th gen is due to the generally overpowered abilities of the new pokemon.

Conceptually, I was visualising a pokemon whose ability simply negates the opponents while it is in play. Pokemon such as Doryuuzu, Technician Breloom, Randorosu, Mischievous Hearter's, Inconsistent+Unaware pokemon, etc etc, would all be substantially crippled by this.

EDIT: Oh, GtM posted it first. Still like the idea though :)

 

[sax king]

Jack Of All Trades

Versatility and Suprise are two major parts of a battle. Any player can mix and match sets and make a team, but a good one creates his/her own custom sets with suprises in store. On truly versatile pokemon can be capable of running multiple different sets. I'm not just talking Choice Band, Choice Scarf, or Physical LO, I'm talking about Wall, Attacker, Supporter all on the same pokemon. I'd like to see a pokemon so versatile that it is capable of filling all sorts of roles. It is truly capable of accomplishing all different types of jobs. Obviously, to prevent it from being overpowered, we make it somewhat mediocre at each of these jobs, allowing it to catch the opponent of guard and by suprise, but not being able to singlehandedly take out the opponent's team.

How this will affect the metagame:
Will this shift people into creating more creative sets and ideas since this pokemon is capable of doing more than one thing?
How important is suprise in a pokemon battle?
How can you counter a pokemon capable of doing everything?
Is scouting really dead due to team previews? Or will this mark the comeback of set scouting?

 

[bubbly]

sax king, Jirachi was something like that in the 4th gen; its versatility was what made it valuable, and it got less valuable when the Choice Scarf and flinching sets started to die out and the CM Wish set really became popular.

However, a pokemon like that will have obvious issues with being able to handle each of those different roles due to limits of stat totals particularly. Jirachi was only so versatile because of its good movepool and 100 base stats across the board. However, it wasn't an amazing defensive pokemon, or an offensive pokemon, it was a mix however you used it.

This problem, I think, would be more accentuated in 5th gen, because both offensive and defensive teams have received huge boosts in the generation change. This would make the issue of making the CAP useable, balanced against not making it an overpowered fix-all pokemon, extremely hard to solve.

In many ways this concept would be similar to Krilowatt's. Something I was thinking about then was to actually give it an ability which allowed you to customise its stats themselves to a greater extent; for instance, to limit it to a relatively low BST, but to increase the effect of its EV's or Nature on its stats, therefore allowing you to effectively customise it for any necessary role in your team.

 

[Tobes]

Concept: Full Support
Description: A pokemon that does not need to or cannot use attacking moves efficiently, instead using almost entirely support moves.

Explanation: With the introduction of Magic Mirror and the buff Magic Coat has received, a pokemon who has one or the other is no longer forced to carry an attacking move in order to prevent becoming completely incapacitated by Taunt. This concept explores what a pokemon can do with four slots of support moves.



Questions to be Answered:

• How much of an impact do attacking moves and support moves have on the metagame respectively?
• What can a support pokemon do without an attack move taking a moveslot?
• At what point does a support pokemon become dead weight on an offensive team?
• Will such a pokemon benefit stall as much as it could potentially harm it?
• Can a pokemon function effectively without attacking moves?
• How many support moves can a pokemon effectively take advantage of during the course of a match?
• What support moves can be given to such a pokemon without it breaking the metagame?

Justification:

Attacking moves are an integral part of the game, and very few pokemon sets don't carry at least one attacking move (even on stall teams), either to avoid Taunt or to avoid Subs. Those that do usually have a way around Taunt or Subsitute, such as Mischeivous Heart Taunt. A pokemon that can run any support moves it wishes without having to give up a moveslot for an offensive move has quite a bit of versatility, but possibly at the cost of reduced efficiency.

The main goal of this concept is to explore support moves and how they impact the metagame, in particular very offensive metagames.

 

[sax king]

Concept: Pacifist

Description: A pokemon that does not need to or cannot use attacking moves efficiently, instead using almost entirely support moves.

Explanation: With the introduction of Magic Mirror and the buff Magic Coat has received, a pokemon who has one or the other is no longer forced to carry an attacking move in order to prevent becoming completely incapacitated by Taunt. This concept explores what a pokemon can do with four slots of support moves.



Questions to be Answered:

• How much of an impact do attacking moves and support moves have on the metagame respectively?
• At what point does a support pokemon become dead weight on an offensive team?
• Will such a pokemon benefit stall as much as it could potentially harm it?
• Can a pokemon function effectively without attacking moves?
• How many support moves can a pokemon effectively take advantage of during the course of a match?
• What support moves can be given to such a pokemon without it breaking the metagame?

Justification:

Attacking moves are an inetgral part of the game, and very few pokemon sets don't carry at least one attacking move (even on stall teams), either to avoid Taunt or to avoid Subs. Those that do usually have a way around Taunt or Subsitute, such as Mischeivous Heart Taunt. A pokemon that can run any support moves it wishes without having to give up a moveslot for an offensive move has quite a bit of versatility, but possibly at the cost of reduced efficiency.

The main goal of this concept is to explore support moves and how they impact the metagame, in particular very offensive metagames.

 

[Tobes]

Read the post a little better. I said support. The only pokemon of those 5 that count as support are Forretress, who is usually running an attacking move, and Wishbliss, who is also usually carrying an attacking move. Hell, I even covered Erufuun and Sableye in my post (you left out Murkrow btw). And lol shuckle.

I renamed my concept to Full Support since it fits better.

 

[sax king]

Shuckle has SR, Toxic, Gastro Acid, Knock Off (more of a support move than an attacking one), and Swagger, which are all support moves.

Erufuun has Taunt, Memento, Toxic, and Tailwind (which I guess isn't that much)

Sableye has Knock Off, Confuse Ray, Mean Look, Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, Spite, and Gravity.

Blissey has SR, Toxic, Wish, Dual Screens, Thunderwave, Swagger, Aromatherapy, Gravity, Heal Bell, and Block.

Forretress has the obvious all hazards and Rapid Spin.

Murkrow has TWave, Featherdance, Haze, Tailwind, Torment, Mean Look, Perish Song, Taunt, Swagger, Psycho Shift, Whirlwind, and Spite.

All these pokemon have great support options, and none of them need to run an attack. Many of them can, but it is not entirely necessary. It's an interesting concept, but we already have several pokemon that are it or are extremely close.

 

[Full_Korbe]

Concept: Redesign the lead spot.

Description: A Pokemon which main goal is to find his niche in the lead metagame, but which can also have many roles, like checking some Pokemon or pose an offensive threat.

Justification: The lead metagame is actually dominated by Weather lead, Mischievous Heart users, TrickLead, Nattorei or Deoxys-S. This Pokemon will be able to deal with this Pokemon and probably lose to more uncommon but present leads, like Metagross or Agirudaa (I know, no one see because he is hardly outclassed by Deoxys-S). In four words : change the lead metagame.

Questions:

• What sort of lead this Pokemon will be ? Suicide lead, Anti-Lead or Bulky setup lead ?
• How this Pokemon will find his place in the lead place ? In using brutal force, in being a constant threat ?
• How this Pokemon will deal against the preeminent weather leads ?
• What sorts of Pokemon could beat this Pokemon during the first turns ? How will we change the metagame without unbalancing the game ?

Explanation: We want to change the lead metagame in order to stop the hegemony of Deoxys-S and Nattorei in the entry-hazards spot and of the weathers leads without losing too easily against others sorts of leads because we want to deal with all popular leads without being unarmed against others. However, they will have an advantage against CAP, so the popular lead will be played to obtain an advantage with this more obscure lead, which will cause an hype for CAP etc...
In order to achieve these goals, CAP might have Air Lock, Magic Mirror / Magic Coat, Harvest + Lum Berry but be weak against bulky lead dealed by Nattorei.

 

[Wyverii]

I've cleaned the thread up. It was starting to get rather messy and off topic. This is a concept thread and though it is not official people should try to abstain from considering what would be illegal concepts. This includes the likes of Chou Toshio's bulky water idea which would be illegal due to dictating a type. Have a quick re-read of the rules if need be.

This thread is also not a dumping ground for what you would think is a cool move/ability or even worse, items. It doesn't add anything useful to the discussion.

 

[Alchemator]

Concept: Dual Purpose

Description: A Pokémon that excels at two different roles, but has severe enough flaws to balance it.

Justification: The current metagame consists of very powerful Pokémon, both offensively and defensively. Thus more emphasis than in the previous Generation is put on the elements of surprise and unpredictability. In turn, however, this Pokémon should ideally also be vulnerable to surprises.

Questions:

• How does surprise and unpredictability indirectly affect "power" within a metagame?
• Is it possible to hold an effective, psychological advantage over your opponent using this Pokémon?
• If applicable, how does the aforementioned psychological advantage affect the game?
• Is the element of surprise a viable device in this new metagame - is it completely necessary, or not necessary at all?

Explanation: When theorymonning this concept, a Pokémon that came to the fore in my mind was Venusaur of 4th Generation UU. Venusaur, though I do not personally believe that it was broken, was argued to be BL on account of the vast number of sets that it could effectively run. While Venusaur did not come very close to being banned, there was enough support from key players (such as Eo Ut Mortus) to cement the memory in my mind. Gen5 has amplified many aspects of the game with power increases in both offense and defense, old tactics being brought to the fore and new tactics introduced altogether. Has the element of unpredictability also been amplified? What effects does it have on the metagame? Venusaur was quite centralising, though not necessarily on account of its unpredictability.

 

[Solstice]

I fell Alchs concept has some merit, but there's a big possibility it does end up like Venusaur, a really really good UU Pokemon, but there's no way it can compete in OU. A Pokemon that can fill two different roles essentially has to have either the potential to be a physical sweeper/special sweeper without being mixed, or a physical wall/special wall without being mixed. Any other combination involves a far too spread out stat spread to work. For instance, a physical sweeper/special wall would need HP, Attack, Special Defense, and Speed as its top stats, and to be competitive in all of them. But this would essentially end up as a physical attacking special tank because of its initial build. It's interesting but I can't see it being pheasible.