5th Gen Concept Theoreymoning

Alchemator · Jan 5, 2011

Myself and Seven Deadly Sins had a long conversation regarding the concept:

<Alch> wyverii
<Alch> I'd just like to check that this concept is legal - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3226473&postcount=149
<Alch> I'm relatively sure that it is, but it is my first time so I'd like confirmation
<Wyverii> Legal.
<Alch> ok cool
<Alch> bit of a gimmicky concept but eh it's me
<SevenDeadlySins> more like a bit of every single cap ever [/rant]
<Xaqwais> boo sds
<Xaqwais> utility counter is good
<Alch> boo hiss
<Xaqwais> was*
* SevenDeadlySins was kicked by Alch (boo hiss!)
* SevenDeadlySins has joined #battlecapacity
* Porygon2 sets mode: +h SevenDeadlySins
<SevenDeadlySins> you know damn well what i think about the various caps, lol
<Alch> I do now
<SevenDeadlySins> if you listened to the cap smogcast i think i verbalized it there fairly well
<Alch> um
<SevenDeadlySins> also utility counter was the best example or something serving "two different roles", even if unintended
<Xaqwais> Magic guard was so dumb haha
<Xaqwais> yeah, community shouldn't be included in cap
<Xaqwais> it should be like
<SevenDeadlySins> krill was half "ok i counter everything" and half "oh i get free boosts on all my shit"
<Xaqwais> plus, tennis, doug, and all the best users
<Wyverii> Good GOD. Why is there a thread encouraging pillow shading in smeargles studio?
<Alch> pfft the noob spriters started it
<SevenDeadlySins> it just so happens that the offensive set was the "good" one
<Xaqwais> Didn't they get rid of magic guard eventually
<Xaqwais> thank god
<Alch> magic guard makes everything viable
<Alch> shinbora~
<Alch> though shinbora is a cool ass mon anyway
<Xaqwais> cleffa
<SevenDeadlySins> also i think your concept has been answered a number of times
<SevenDeadlySins> venusaur
<SevenDeadlySins> lucario
<SevenDeadlySins> salamence
<Alch> venusaur isn't the same in 5th gen
<SevenDeadlySins> insert pokemon with great movepool here
<SevenDeadlySins> etc
<SevenDeadlySins> yeah but the point is to "examine the metagame"
<Alch> and lucario really veered toward the SD in gen4
<SevenDeadlySins> this is not a new phenomenon
<Alch> now it seems primarily np
<SevenDeadlySins> or a misunderstood phenomenon
<SevenDeadlySins> or something we didn't know a lot about
* cartons has joined #battlecapacity
<Alch> the concept is more like how far can you push it
<Alch> than make bogstandard pokemon
<cartons> eh, look at the numbers we're hitting
<cartons> whatre you guys talkin about?
<Alch> how far you can push it within the regions of balance that is
<SevenDeadlySins> that's silly
<Alch> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3226473&postcount=149
<SevenDeadlySins> i think we saw how far you can push it within the regions of balance
<Xaqwais> SDS is hatin' on the cap project, alch is defending, I'm sorta neutral kinda, wyv is remaining silent
<Xaqwais> mai is lurking
<SevenDeadlySins> see: salamence for nearly the entirety of gen 4
<SevenDeadlySins> i'm not hating on anything except a concept that has already been played out
<Alch> mence was deemed broken
<Xaqwais> :)
<SevenDeadlySins> but for how long
<Alch> I.E. not balanced
<Xaqwais> just wanted to get you riled up on a incorrect description
<SevenDeadlySins> it spent the entirety of gen 4 being "on the verge:
<SevenDeadlySins> i think that tells you all you need to know
<Alch> on the verge isn't what I'm aiming for in that either
<Mai> 13What?
<Alch> I'm talking a comfortable top 5 OU type
<Alch> but nowhere near broken
<SevenDeadlySins> "aiming for" a specific power level is also ridiculous
<Mai> 13I'm only lurking because I'm not into this pokemon mumbo jumbo.
<cartons> wait..is there a new cap?
<Alch> that's what my ideal is
<SevenDeadlySins> especially considering the community
<Alch> unlikely to happen
<Xaqwais> No, cap concept theorymonning thread
<Alch> you're considering my concept, not the future
<Wyverii> Nah, it's the theorymon- feck it
<Alch> obviously the concept influences the future
<cartons> ah right
<Alch> but not that much
<Alch> the ideas in my head won't play out, but the ideas are there all the same
<SevenDeadlySins> do you honestly think that the community is capable of "hitting the mark" and knowing when enough is enough, because it doesn't have a great track record
<Xaqwais> I was so goddamn pissed with magic guard
<Alch> I thought CAP meant Create A Pokemon, not Community Analysis Project
<Xaqwais> man
<Xaqwais> still makes me mad
<Alch> that's not the point
<Alch> I agree with you on the community being flawed
<Wyverii> The community is a community, you can't expect cohesiveness to a great degree within a popular project.
<Alch> but you can't override a concept with that
<SevenDeadlySins> of course you can
<Alch> so why didn't you overide the previous "bad caps"
<Alch> of which you say there are many
<Alch> how do you spell override btw
<SevenDeadlySins> two Rs
<SevenDeadlySins> and really, there aren't many "bad caps"
<Alch> "because it doesn't have a great track record"
<Alch> you seem to dislike CAP enough for these "failures" to be important or numerous enough
<SevenDeadlySins> yay for out of context quotes
<Alch> it isn't out of context
<SevenDeadlySins> the context of that quote was "hitting the mark" in terms of power levels
<Alch> mhm
<Alch> clearly a CAP that doesn't hit the right power levels is flawed
<SevenDeadlySins> they tend to make things stronger than they need to be, but the only one i would say "failed" were cyclohm and krilowatt
<SevenDeadlySins> on the whole i like most of the caps
<SevenDeadlySins> and what they say about the metagame
<SevenDeadlySins> they're all "mostly accurate"
<SevenDeadlySins> cyclohm failed because it simply doesn't tell us anything
<SevenDeadlySins> and krilowatt went from "utility counter" to that thing everyone slaps a life orb on and sweeps with
<Alch> and yet through and through it's the same type of community that has served us these CAPs
<Alch> maybe not the same members, yet comparable
<Alch> so you can't say that the community will ruin this concept
<SevenDeadlySins> i think you're missing the point
<Wyverii> What was the arguement again? I fail to see where one is.
<cartons> myself id have liked to have seen the projects explore with a minimalist attitude. how little can you give them while making them useful and fulfilling their purpose?
<Alch> SDS claims that the community will ruin the concept that I suggested
<cartons> i think you stand to gain a lot more from that kind of approach
<SevenDeadlySins> the argument is that a concept dependant on a cap having a certain specific power level will fail
<SevenDeadlySins> because the community tends to overshoot the mark
<SevenDeadlySins> and cartons i agree
<SevenDeadlySins> i find the best pokemon are the ones that have amazingly precise movepools
<Wyverii> Alch's concept mentions no such thing.
<Alch> It isn't dependant on having a specific power level at all
<SevenDeadlySins> take terakion, for example
<Wyverii> Also a minimalist concept should in theory be legal. I think.
<SevenDeadlySins> it has a pretty lame movepool, but it has the perfect moves to be fucking amazing
<cartons> well, i just mean as an overall philosophy
<SevenDeadlySins> mhm
<Xaqwais> (fucking terakion)
<SevenDeadlySins> remove the issue of "overshooting the mark"
<Alch> it will be obvious if it overshoots the mark as you say, or if it falls under it
<Alch> in which case it is changed
<Wyverii> Sadly, when there's a lot of people with varying view points there's going to be comprimise which usually ends with things such as movepool bloating.
<Alch> you simply cannot use that argument to pick flaws in the concept itself
<Xaqwais> Alch, going back to specific problems with your concept, I see the major problem the fact taht too many pokemon fit your role too well anyway
<Xaqwais> like SDS mentioned a bunch of examples through multiple tiers
<Alch> not in this meta
<Alch> or at least not yet
<Xaqwais> victini
<Alch> is hardly used
<SevenDeadlySins> Alch: give it some time
<SevenDeadlySins> a metagame is not generated in a day
<SevenDeadlySins> or a month
<Alch> obviously not
<SevenDeadlySins> remember how you brought up venusaur?
<Alch> mm
<SevenDeadlySins> how long did it take for people to figure out all the awesome sets it could run
<SevenDeadlySins> back when i still played uu venusaur was basically sd
<SevenDeadlySins> and that was it
<Alch> which period was that
<SevenDeadlySins> maybe you saw a couple special ones
<Alch> end of ducks?
<Xaqwais> Swords dance lucario wasn't brought to prominence until a couple months into DP
<Xaqwais> maybe more
<SevenDeadlySins> beginning of ducks
<SevenDeadlySins> i stopped playing in the cress meta
<Alch> hm
<SevenDeadlySins> it takes time for a metagame to mature
<Alch> in my defense, I can't predict the future
<Alch> I designed that concept for now, not two months time
<SevenDeadlySins> and for less obvious movepool elements to make themselves known
<Alch> in which time, as you say, so much could happen
<Alch> and sd luke was more than a couple of months iirc
<Xaqwais> I wasn't a early DP player, so I'm not quite sure
<Xaqwais> I came into competitive at the start of DPP
<SevenDeadlySins> even with sd luke there's divergence within the set
<SevenDeadlySins> is it running ice punch or crunch or stone edge
<SevenDeadlySins> bullet punch or extremespeed
<SevenDeadlySins> or both?
<SevenDeadlySins> agility started being used near the end of dp too
<Alch> I've never encountered anyone running both
<SevenDeadlySins> i have
<Alch> and agility wasn't all that great
<SevenDeadlySins> i know locopoke used to
<Alch> in the concept I mention "excel"
<Xaqwais> bp for gengar?
<SevenDeadlySins> but the point is that different sets mean different checks
<SevenDeadlySins> scarftar, xaq
<Xaqwais> er
<Xaqwais> yeah
<Xaqwais> that thing
<Xaqwais> heh
<Alch> individually, sd works far better than agility
<Alch> however
<Alch> agility works because the meta shifted to counter sd
<Alch> and the loop continues (in theory)
<Alch> if a mon excels at both from the start, then this loop does not occur
<SevenDeadlySins> but the point of versatility
<Alch> and unpredictability sets in, which is what the concept seeks to explore
<SevenDeadlySins> is that the counters to x set are beaten by y set, whose counters are beaten by z set, and so on
<SevenDeadlySins> this is an observed phenomenon
<SevenDeadlySins> and not one that requires more in-depth analysis through cap imo
<Alch> "is that the counters...etc" explain this more please
<Alch> I'm tired !_! xD
<SevenDeadlySins> ok
<Alch> oh I get you
<SevenDeadlySins> your opponent is running mence
<SevenDeadlySins> you bring in hippo to counter dd
<SevenDeadlySins> and get owned by draco meteor from special mixmence
<Alch> but this observed phenomenon is the loop that I was talking about
<SevenDeadlySins> not really
<Alch> the counters shift due to the set shifts
<Alch> and so on
<Alch> mence does not excel at both special mixmence and DD in the same periods
<Alch> special mixmence may be good, but it doesn't excel
<SevenDeadlySins> this is a silly argument
<SevenDeadlySins> you're missing the point of versatility
<Xaqwais> Then why do we need a cap to do this?
<Alch> that's because its success is defined by meta shifts and not merits / diversity of the pokemon
<SevenDeadlySins> and technically it excels at everything at all times
<Xaqwais> not when of the many pokes that already fit?
<SevenDeadlySins> the meta may shift
<SevenDeadlySins> but that doesn't mean it's not good at doing it
<SevenDeadlySins> also special mixmence was always good
<Alch> "good" =/= "excels at"
<SevenDeadlySins> as was dd
<SevenDeadlySins> there's also choice band
<SevenDeadlySins> or scarf, that one was fun
<Alch> tell me, why was CB used over DD
<Alch> what could CB do that DD couldn't
<Xaqwais> hit hard from the start
<SevenDeadlySins> immediate power, less susceptible to switchins, caught people off-guard
<SevenDeadlySins> but you're missing the point
<Alch> imo you're also missing the point
<Alch> justify that
<SevenDeadlySins> i have no idea what the hell that means
<Alch> how am I missing the point
<Alch> because I think that you're missing the point
<SevenDeadlySins> the point was never "is this good in the meta"
<SevenDeadlySins> that doesn't determine what sets a pokemon is good at running
<SevenDeadlySins> obviously metagame shifts will make specific sets more desireable
<SevenDeadlySins> which will make specific counters more desireable
<SevenDeadlySins> which will make other sets more effective in the meta
<Alch> yes
<Alch> what I'm saying is having a dual purpose mon that excels at both
<Alch> regardless of meta shifts
<SevenDeadlySins> but that doesn't mean that at any point in time the pokemon isn't good at or capable of doing that
<SevenDeadlySins> THAT DOESN'T EXIST
<Alch> not yet it doesn't
<SevenDeadlySins> that's what you're missing
<Alch> CAP - Create a Pokemon
<Alch> or come as close to it as possible
<Alch> at least
<Xaqwais> I'd argue that base 100 fairies can excel at any metagame
<Xaqwais> but eh
<SevenDeadlySins> also jirachi
<SevenDeadlySins> which was a great example of a bunch of different sets coexisting
<Xaqwais> does jirachi count as a base 100 fairy?
<Alch> yes
<SevenDeadlySins> or tyranitar
<Alch> because it's base 100
<Alch> I might get internet cut off soon
<Alch> but I'll be back
<Alch> !
<SevenDeadlySins> but the point is
<SevenDeadlySins> that saying a pokemon will be "equally good at 2 things" during every metagame is folly
<SevenDeadlySins> there will always be 1 thing that is more effective due to the nature of the metagame
<SevenDeadlySins> which will be focused on
<SevenDeadlySins> thus making it "less effective" and causing a swing in the other direction
<SevenDeadlySins> ad infinitum
<SevenDeadlySins> "and the loop continues"
<Alch> granted, it's impossible to make something completely immune
<Alch> but we can likely get close
<SevenDeadlySins> not really
<Alch> how do you know
<Xaqwais> I doubt it
<Alch> you haven't tried
<SevenDeadlySins> no, but i've seen pokemon in this loop
<Xaqwais> It would requite constant adjustments, not something to be made in one go
<Alch> ah my internet is gone
<Alch> be back in about 10 mins
<SevenDeadlySins> you can't say "this will be good at x and it will be good at y" because that depends on the metagame
* Alch has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
<Xaqwais> with new event moves coming into the loop--
* Alch has joined #battlecapacity
<Alch> Powah
<Alch> No I'll be on and off on this
<Alch> *but
<Alch> Where were we
<Xaqwais> do you need logs?
<Alch> Sevendeadlysins?
<Alch> I was just thinking that
<Alch> It would be helpful to post them with the concept too
<SevenDeadlySins> anyway as we were
<SevenDeadlySins> no pokemon is immune to metagame shifts
<Alch> Do you mind doing that for me xaq? It'd be much appreciated
<SevenDeadlySins> it's just not possible
<Alch> There have been impossible things that have been proved possible
<Alch> Certainly worth exploring
<Alch> How close can we get?

Solstice · Jan 5, 2011

Well other than the proof that CaP is extraordinarily elitist (not that this really needed proving), I don't find this proved very much because the argument was never resolved, plenty of Pokemon CAN fill in two roles, including during metagame shifts, small or big. All the base 100 fairies are an excellent example, they all fulfill different roles, especially Jirachi and Celebi, I remember their old DPP Smogon page both had 11 different sets. Plenty of Pokemon can be used in different roles, I dont see how your concept is at all different from any of them.

reachzero · Jan 5, 2011

I think the key question here is "how is Gen. 5 play different from Gen. 4 play, and how can we explore the implications of these differences?" So then, some of the differences.

1. Entry hazards are easy to get. The popularity of Nattorei in addition to the existing sources of Spikes make Spikes very common.

2. Psychics are far better and more popular than at any point in the DPP metagame. Gen. 5 added several excellent Fighting types and very few good Dark and Bug types. As a result, Psychic has become a much more useful type to have on a team.

3. New items have changed the landscape of what Pokemon are and can do. Evolution Stone makes Pokemon viable that would never have seen the light of day previously, and Balloon changes the whole dynamic of what can counter what.

4. Team preview (a.k.a. "Wi-Fi Clause") changes the whole face of scouting and in-game strategy. You can identify threats and plan for them before the game even starts. Rather than hiding Pokemon, hiding sets becomes the new means of information warfare.

Is there anything I'm missing? I'm holding off on Weather discussion just because Drizzle is currently a Suspect, and we aren't quite sure what will come of that.

smashlloyd20 · Jan 5, 2011

In addition to all the Fighting-types, Psychics get STAB on one of the coolest new move: Psycho Shock. Just wanted to point that out.

Solstice · Jan 5, 2011

I feel that the psychics are more prominant, but in no way as powerful as the fighting types that have been newly introduced, namely Roopushin but not exclusive to him. Zuruzukin, Kojondo, Terakion, Virizion, and Speed Boost Blaziken I feel are considerably more powerful than any of the newly introduced psychics, Shinporaa is decent and so is Rankurusu, but other than that, I don't understand the focus on Psychic rather than Fighting.

Also, you missed more powerful set-up moves like Butterfly Dance, Coil, Shell Break, Tail Glow, etc.

Mountain Dewgong · Jan 6, 2011

Concept: 'Cloud-Ten'

Description: A pokemon that not only cancels out weather effects while it is active in battle, but until they are restarted by another pokemon an auto-clear skies if you will.

Justification: Quite honestly the most bitched about aspect of Gen 5 in my experiences is the absolute dominance of weather teams. Offensive behemoths like Doryuuzu, Landolos, Ludicolo, Kingdra, Tangrowth and Venusaur run rampant in their respective weather conditions. Weather even makes for defensive threats, Cradily, Walrein and Manaphy to name a few; stall teams are rarely seen without sandstorm or hail. So what if there was a pokemon that could act as a threat to these weather effects in an attempt to bring balance to the metagame.

Questions:

Will the introduction of an 'auto-clear skies' pokemon help balance the usage of weather and see for a less centralised metagame?
Will more hyper offensive teams who aren't reliant on weather become more prominent?
Will this help remove the need to ban weather inducers and therefore prevent what would ultimately be a shift of power from rain to sun or others?

Explanation: Weather is an effective strategy in any form of team, probably too much so. Using a rain/sun has become almost an 'auto-win even if they aren't played particularly well, this has caused an up-cry in the ranks of the more experienced battlers. No longer can they play their regular teams and consistently win, they are basically forced to play a weather team or conversely an anti-weather team. This centralisation is ultimately unhealthy for competitive battling and I believe this concept, when run alongside the OU environment's (most likely) banning of weather abusers will serve as a great comparison in the effectiveness of 'nerfing' weather.

Apart from the obvious balancing of weather and the possible increase in the variety of teams used in regard to weather it also allows for more offensive teams rigged up with life orbs for example to have more of an advantage against stall as this pokemon could remove the constant weather damage on the frail offensive pokemon. Though this could be regarded as both a good and a bad thing. ;P

bubbly · Jan 6, 2011

I just find the concept of an auto-weather canceller fairly boring and one dimensional. I'd prefer the concept actually restricts or cancels the foe's ability, since it is the source of most of the huge overpoweredness of many new pokemon, including weather.
Simply having an ability which makes the foe's ability ineffectual would be amazingly useful, have a huge number of implications and uses, and also be interesting strategically. Obviously it would also be somewhat overpowered, especially as a defensive pokemon, without significant drawbacks in stats / movepool / typing.

Universal Berry · Jan 6, 2011

Mountain Dewgong,

The concept you have mentioned, although well-written and more clearly formulated, has already been proposed by me on the previous page. Although some differences are notable, (My CAP wants to make people regret using Weather teams by giving them "A taste of their own medicine" while yours only wants to get the skies clear, only stopping a weather that will probably come back as soon as your CAP will be defeated.)

Bubbly,

I agree that it is a concept poor in creativity but in my honest opinion I think a weather-free Metagame is far more interesting and opened to creativity. It is sad to see how many Pokémon are becoming really interesting with new moves and abilities and items but are prevented from being used because they get overwhelmed by various weathers.

Although, as Reachzero pointed out, Drizzle and Drought (maybe not Drought but oh well) will soon be tested as suspects, which may make this concept worthless. I think the better thing to do is to let time go and see what happens (as there was any other thing to do...).

Phi · Jan 7, 2011

"Ultimate Predictability"
Eh, this isn't really a concept based specifically on fifth gen, but I think the fifth generation has definitely borne out a couple more examples of this. Basically, it's about trying to make a pokemon that has only one viable set, and seeing how the metagame would react to it. In the majority of cases, this kind of predictability has either forced the metagame to adapt leaving the predictable Pokemon unused or I guess more notably banned (Wobbuffet in gens III and IV, Reshiram/Zekrom this gen). This might be less applicable this generation due to the shortening out of some movepools by Dream World Abilities, though the kind of predictability I'm imagining for this concept is more along the lines of the "perfect movesets" of the aforementioned ubers. Can a pokemon be a legitimate threat with absolutely no versatility?

Full_Korbe · Jan 7, 2011

Just say Doryuzuu. He has only one good set (SD, maybe with little variants like the item or attacks, but Return is never seen), and he wreaks havoc like no one.

Aerodactyl Legend · Jan 8, 2011

reachzero said:
I think the key question here is "how is Gen. 5 play different from Gen. 4 play, and how can we explore the implications of these differences?" So then, some of the differences.

1. Entry hazards are easy to get. The popularity of Nattorei in addition to the existing sources of Spikes make Spikes very common.

2. Psychics are far better and more popular than at any point in the DPP metagame. Gen. 5 added several excellent Fighting types and very few good Dark and Bug types. As a result, Psychic has become a much more useful type to have on a team.

3. New items have changed the landscape of what Pokemon are and can do. Evolution Stone makes Pokemon viable that would never have seen the light of day previously, and Balloon changes the whole dynamic of what can counter what.

4. Team preview (a.k.a. "Wi-Fi Clause") changes the whole face of scouting and in-game strategy. You can identify threats and plan for them before the game even starts. Rather than hiding Pokemon, hiding sets becomes the new means of information warfare.

Is there anything I'm missing? I'm holding off on Weather discussion just because Drizzle is currently a Suspect, and we aren't quite sure what will come of that.

After actually playing more often these days, I've learned more on what 5th Gen has brung which the CAP project should consider.

Anyways, thanks for this, Reachzero. Since we are sticking to not bringing the 4th Gen Caps to fifth Gen so strongly, it would only make sense to analyze the differences between the two gens. The thread has become too much as a "submit your concepts now" topic. Needs more discussion, or at least more feedback on the better concepts instead of just posting more and more concepts. And yes, weather is a bitch but we don't even know how it will be taken care of in the future, as I said before.

To add to your list, from what I've been seeing at least, offense is much more of a prevailance this gen than the last one. Not only that, it's much more dominant than stall with the many ways of boosting your Attack/Special Attack now (which itself, is a big change as well).

ryik7 · Feb 5, 2011

weather? WEATHER!?

I dominate many weather teams among other gimicks amazingly easy and am largely unconventional, for example:

I have no entry hazards
I have no rapid spin
I have nothing smogon constantly demands, how about a pkmn that can fight indirectly?

I have a lv1 staller that a lv100 uber couldnt take out, I have a lv1 sweeper that sweeps ubers, and I like the moves perish song (not what I took 'em out with though) and destiny bond, how about a pkmn that can fight with strategy? Too many times I see teams loaded with pseudos, ubers and raw power pokes, when I use Froslass to instantly take out Salamence then destiny bond the incoming metagross who meteor mashes, it kinda bores me, how about a poke that could fight indirectly so we don't have live in the stone ages?

Arceus uses judgement!
Shaymin uses seed flare!
Arceus uses judgement!
critical hit!
Shaymin fainted!
boring.
CAPs are about experimenting (what would happen if we do this?) and tell me, do you care much over "will this eliminate weather teams?", let's go for more than a yes or no question. (plz?)

ungulateman · Feb 5, 2011

ryik7 said:
weather? WEATHER!?

I dominate many weather teams among other gimicks amazingly easy and am largely unconventional, for example:

I have no entry hazards
I have no rapid spin
I have nothing smogon constantly demands, how about a pkmn that can fight indirectly?

I have a lv1 staller that a lv100 uber couldnt take out, I have a lv1 sweeper that sweeps ubers, and I like the moves perish song (not what I took 'em out with though) and destiny bond, how about a pkmn that can fight with strategy? Too many times I see teams loaded with pseudos, ubers and raw power pokes, when I use Froslass to instantly take out Salamence then destiny bond the incoming metagross who meteor mashes, it kinda bores me, how about a poke that could fight indirectly so we don't have live in the stone ages?

Arceus uses judgement!
Shaymin uses seed flare!
Arceus uses judgement!
critical hit!
Shaymin fainted!
boring.
CAPs are about experimenting (what would happen if we do this?) and tell me, do you care much over "will this eliminate weather teams?", let's go for more than a yes or no question. (plz?)

1. This is just a random rant. Smogon is not your blog.
2. Stop whinging about people using pseudo-legendaries, etc. It makes you sound like a scrub.
3. This is entirley irrelevant to this thread. Go complain in Uncharted Territory or something.

ryik7 · Feb 5, 2011

it's just that seeing smogon constantly rely on the same strategies all the time, it's always something like:

sleep talker
baton passer
staller
entry hazards+attacks

it's true, I'm ranting, and if I put it there what difference would it make? And yes this is completely relevant, I'm talking about a poke that could utilise moves like perish song well and bring moves like that into the metagame, I use an evo stone misdreavus that locks them into a unstoppable death lock, (mean look+perish song+destiny bond) but even with defenses of 360, I'm the only one in all of poke online who uses it, tell me, why is that? Combined with pain split, it's as good as any wall on smogon, only that it kills in only 4 turns, and dont even say entry hazards because I switch and neutralise almost instantaneously (stupid forretress, you couldn't do shiz to misdreavus with gyro ball/payback anyway)

I want something new and surprising, if I remember, no-one thought of using tailwind or whatever else be4 fidgit, so what about indirect moves? My Froslass, if I gave it weather ball instead of confuse ray, could work very well on a sunny day team, why? Because destiny bond lets it benefit from it's own demise, but u guys, of course, wouldn't dream of putting Frosty on sun team.

Getting back to the point, how about a poke that can utilise wit instead of oh no imma lose because I use lotsa electrics, and he use has EQ, and besides, you haven't given me any reason why this is such a horrible idea, oh, and when you/i say i no like pseudo's, I meant they kinda ruin the fun (and no, not im losing not fun, im mean wow, they use 6 pseudos, boringly overpowered not fun (don't get the wrong idea, destiny bond/endeavor pretty much makes it that their hurting themselves))

DetroitLolcat · Feb 5, 2011

I would like to see "Decentralizer" being used again, it would let us see how the metagame would work if major threats like Nattorei and Garchomp were gone, and see how pokemon that they usually beat fare in a game where they don't need to worry about the threats.

zarator · Feb 5, 2011

DetroitLolcat said:
I would like to see "Decentralizer" being used again, it would let us see how the metagame would work if major threats like Nattorei and Garchomp were gone, and see how pokemon that they usually beat fare in a game where they don't need to worry about the threats.

From personal experience, "Decentralizer" is not a concept which works. The only thing you'll obtain is a different kind of centralization (kind of what happened with Arghonaut)

ryik7 · Feb 5, 2011

zarator said:
From personal experience, "Decentralizer" is not a concept which works. The only thing you'll obtain is a different kind of centralization (kind of what happened with Arghonaut)

argonaut (as far as I see it) was just another pseudo/strongy and, if u put it that way, was fighting fire with fire (big fire), I'm propoposing indirect fighting, fighting fire with water if you will, and that will give rise to grass

CuteandScary · Feb 5, 2011

"I know this has been said so many times that I don't think it matters"- Fall Out Boy
But we should help fai-hail out of the hell it is in.

ryik7 · Feb 5, 2011

so? whatchallsya thinkin'?

i'm thinkin 'bout how I wish I had a pet flying orange

back 2 teh point, making an indirect fighter is easier than making and fleshing out how a cloud 10 poke would work

to enable curse we make it ghost, thats one thing, im not sure if we'll get around to using curse, but it will probably be sumtin like misdreavus... maybe... maybe a 3rd evo? Probably not, maybe curse isn't needed...

these are all more or less relevant questions im sure you "elitists"/experts at minimal differences could handle easily ("by increasing speed by 36 EVs you outspeed (this guy that guy and this one), add this much def makes EQs are 3hkos" etc.)

ungulateman · Feb 5, 2011

ryik7 said:
so? whatchallsya thinkin'?

i'm thinkin 'bout how I wish I had a pet flying orange

back 2 teh point, making an indirect fighter is easier than making and fleshing out how a cloud 10 poke would work

to enable curse we make it ghost, thats one thing, im not sure if we'll get around to using curse, but it will probably be sumtin like misdreavus... maybe... maybe a 3rd evo? Probably not, maybe curse isn't needed...

these are all more or less relevant questions im sure you "elitists"/experts at minimal differences could handle easily ("by increasing speed by 36 EVs you outspeed (this guy that guy and this one), add this much def makes EQs are 3hkos" etc.)

CAPs start as concepts.

This idea is too big already - it needs to have good defenses, it needs to have Perish Song, it needs to be a Ghost-type (if you want Curse, which is where you seem to be rambling on a tangent towards). We have bulky Ghost-types already, they just aren't any good because Tyranitar exists.

Live with it, this idea isn't getting off the ground. I'm the only person even replying to you.

ryik7 · Feb 6, 2011

ungulateman said:
CAPs start as concepts.

This idea is too big already - it needs to have good defenses, it needs to have Perish Song, it needs to be a Ghost-type (if you want Curse, which is where you seem to be rambling on a tangent towards). We have bulky Ghost-types already, they just aren't any good because Tyranitar exists.

Live with it, this idea isn't getting off the ground. I'm the only person even replying to you.

I already told you, who said it had to be a ghost type? Curse is optional, and so is it being being a pure ghost type, and your contradicting yourself, if we have good ghosts then why do they fear tyranitar? And by good ghosts are you refering to? Revenankh or misdreavus? Or maybe duclops/noir? Revenankh is an offensive force if I remember correctly, and his movepool isn't listed their, and considering he doesn't even have a mouth, I assume he doesn't have perish song, if he did then I have no idea what the creators were thinking, and the duscs cant sing. Also, sableye and spiritomb are the only ghosts i can think of off of the top of my head that resist dark moves from tyranitar, and even then they both can't learn perish song and the best I've seen sableye do is stall, reovering every other turn (well, actually more) or spiritomb, still stalling, (not too particularly good at it) they can't fight indirerctly (they can, but I'm not talking about stall) so what ITWWW are u talking about?

ITWWW=in the whole wide world

Tortferngatr · Feb 7, 2011

ryik7 said:
I already told you, who said it had to be a ghost type? Curse is optional, and so is it being being a pure ghost type, and your contradicting yourself, if we have good ghosts then why do they fear tyranitar? And by good ghosts are you refering to? Revenankh or misdreavus? Or maybe duclops/noir? Revenankh is an offensive force if I remember correctly, and his movepool isn't listed their, and considering he doesn't even have a mouth, I assume he doesn't have perish song, if he did then I have no idea what the creators were thinking, and the duscs cant sing. Also, sableye and spiritomb are the only ghosts i can think of off of the top of my head that resist dark moves from tyranitar, and even then they both can't learn perish song and the best I've seen sableye do is stall, reovering every other turn (well, actually more) or spiritomb, still stalling, (not too particularly good at it) they can't fight indirerctly (they can, but I'm not talking about stall) so what ITWWW are u talking about?

ITWWW=in the whole wide world

Your entire plan of Perish Trapping=screwed over by Whimsicott's priority Taunt. Additionally, should Misdreavus be killed by a sufficiently powerful attack before it can finish its job, it dies and I can switch out.

Revenankh will not be considered for the purposes of Gen V CAP. The old CAPs will be programmed onto the online CAP server on PO, but for the sake of the metagame they won't be included in standard play or CAP playtesting (besides, each CAP was tailor-made to the Gen IV metagame of its time.)

There ARE good bulky Ghosts (Jellicent, Evo Stone Dusclops, arguably Cofagrigus) but they are relatively few in number this gen.

Aerodactyl Legend · Feb 7, 2011

ryik7 said:
so? whatchallsya thinkin'?

i'm thinkin 'bout how I wish I had a pet flying orange

back 2 teh point, making an indirect fighter is easier than making and fleshing out how a cloud 10 poke would work

to enable curse we make it ghost, thats one thing, im not sure if we'll get around to using curse, but it will probably be sumtin like misdreavus... maybe... maybe a 3rd evo? Probably not, maybe curse isn't needed...

these are all more or less relevant questions im sure you "elitists"/experts at minimal differences could handle easily ("by increasing speed by 36 EVs you outspeed (this guy that guy and this one), add this much def makes EQs are 3hkos" etc.)

You edited the post and I'm still thinking, "What....?"

If this is the gyst what you're explaining in your replies, then you're focusing on specific attributes of any new Pokemon, not concepts.

ryik7 · Feb 8, 2011

Tortferngatr said:
Your entire plan of Perish Trapping=screwed over by Whimsicott's priority Taunt. Additionally, should Misdreavus be killed by a sufficiently powerful attack before it can finish its job, it dies and I can switch out.

Revenankh will not be considered for the purposes of Gen V CAP. The old CAPs will be programmed onto the online CAP server on PO, but for the sake of the metagame they won't be included in standard play or CAP playtesting (besides, each CAP was tailor-made to the Gen IV metagame of its time.)

There ARE good bulky Ghosts (Jellicent, Evo Stone Dusclops, arguably Cofagrigus) but they are relatively few in number this gen.

perish trapping is an example, I didn't just mean it's just perish trapping, I meant something that uses strategy and not just brute force,

anti sleep clause, lv 100 sweeper smeargle:

Smeargle@focus sash
Naive, 252speed
Own tempo
Spore
Agility
Endeavor
Dragon rage/extremespeed (252 atk EVs)

I like smeargle, you can't atk with diddly shiz and yet he can sweep and fulfll any role, he is the ultimate strategy poke, he is a perfect example

Also, how can my misdreavus die and how does that allow you to switch out? Misdreavus can't die easily, considering it withstood STAB Flamethrower from a Charizard under sunny day, Solar power and Life orb, and since I knew he was tough I used destiny bond and took out his super strong charizard just like that, if Misdreavus gets taunted I can fix that with switching, considering I know what taunts, it's so funny when a Weavile tried to taunt my Techloom (wake up slap, dead)(and yes I use Techloom wake up slap, assuming technician is x1.5 it brings wake up slap up to 270 power I think, on a spored foe, and that's without super effective, 135 power on awake foe) and then theres the time a dumb aerodactyl taunted my froslass, ICE BEAM AWAAAAAAAAY!

Anyway, point is I want to try to make a poke that can apply this stuff, apply strategy without cr@p like belly drum baton pass, stuff that can take out the pseudos and overpowered without being overpowered themselves; a decentraliser if you will, like the FEAR pokes (sure they can be countered and whatnot, although switching at the last moment could cause a 2nd endeavor to cause problems)

Point is, wrapping this all up, I want to make a poke that can do more than hit opponents haphazardly, got what I'm saying? A poke that fights without fighting, oh, and try out misdreavus sometime be4 critisizing it so badly (all pokes got flaws, so STOP JUDGING ME D:<):

Misdreavus@Evo stone
Bold EVs: I forgot them, bump up defenses into 240 each and pour the rest into hp, it conflicts with pain split, but misdreavus kinda needs the bulk (ok, so solar life orb sunny charizard's STAB left me wit only 3hp left, 3 less and misdreavus woulda died), if you don't want to increase HP, put it into speed

Pain split (for healing, after using death lock (assuming your'e slower, that is the time to use it, right be4 perish song has u switch)
Perish song(use after mean look, can affect substitutes)
Mean look(use first, can affect substitutes)
Destiny bond(use after perish song for a death lock)

Even if they know how it works all they could try to do is send in a taunter, after I already killed one of their pokes, switch to an offensive guy and take it out, making it roughly 4 vs 6 (no matter how much I prefer strategic pokes, I need at least one or 2 offensives, lest I fall prey to taunt

omg i just said the word lest

Oh, and I was kinda out of it the day I wrote about oranges, and I only edited it to delete the shiz I accidentally wrote here (the wrong place) which bears no relevance to CAP

OOOK THEN, I think I finally covered the rest of the bases

ungulateman · Feb 8, 2011

Every Pokemon requires strategy to use, not just brute force.

Even a Choice user has to predict switch-ins, judge what they want to lock themselves into, and switch out safely.

Learn2play.

5th Gen Concept Theoreymoning

Alchemator

my god if you don't have an iced tea for me when i

Solstice

reachzero

the pastor of disaster

smashlloyd20

Solstice

Mountain Dewgong

bubbly

Universal Berry

Phi

Full_Korbe

Aerodactyl Legend

ryik7

ungulateman

ryik7

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017

zarator

^_^

ryik7

CuteandScary

ryik7

ungulateman

ryik7

Tortferngatr

Aerodactyl Legend

ryik7

ungulateman