Once again, drizzle in itself is a candidate for "brokenness" without the existence of a swift swim army. Also, banning drizzle won't do away with the entire style of Rain offense, while the banning of Swift Swim will.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I agree with, inconsistent, and the evasion abilities completely.
Going on Drizzle, I wouldn't say so, a support ability is still dependent on the pokemon around it and even it's own user. Apples & oranges here however... as a support ability, Drizzle can't be "broke" if crap like Macargo, are the only people to take advantage of it. The same way we can say Swift swim is dependent on it's user, we can say Drizzle is dependent on the pokemon around it who would utilize it. naturally there is the fire reduction but for the most part everything it does is dependent on it's team mates/host. To a different extent than swift swim, naturally but their is a dependence.
A dependence on things doesn't mean they're not "broken", is the point.
Eccentric is dependent on it's abuser too. Stick eccentric on Shedinja, see how well that works, when it's HP doesn't change with the rest of it's stats.
Sure Shedinja is a rather extreme example but again, it shows a dependence.
Dependence on the pokemon doesn't mean an ability isn't "broken".
Not really, I've read the nominations, I've read the responses.
let me some up 99% of issues said about drizzle.
Rain abusers are too powerful, they will break through your walls, the pokemon spoken about in this context were all swift swimmers.
the second issue thats brought up
"Manaphy!"
I've yet to hear that any dry skin, raindish, etc pokemon are broken, except for one situation where people were saying vaporeon and wishcash were too strong, and were promptly laughed at.
I can't remember a single one (though I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm incorrect) of the previous voters who had an issue with rain, not having an issue with either the power of swift swimmers in permanent rain or Manaphy.
Wanting Drizzle babnned because swift swimmers and/or Manaphy are proclaimed to be broken in infinite rain.
If we're really going to say Drizzle without swift swim is controversial because of "Manaphy" Hmm I dunno.
If we then narrow it down to, Drizzle is broken, or Manaphy is broken, then we are closer to the truth.
Then we simply suspect test either one and we know what the problem is.
A suspect test with the Drizzle+Swift swim Clause would more than likely completely prove weather Drizzle is broken, while simultaneously proving if Manaphy is broken or not. As under that hypothetical clause, Swift swim teams cannot have politoed, they can opt to bring in Manaphy instead. With seeing RD teams with manaphy being part of the Meta we can see almost perfectly how Manaphy would function in a metagame without drizzle.
A drizzle+ Swift swim clause would put this entire issue to rest, much, much faster if the goal is to make the "best" decision.
I believe the evasion abilities should not be banned for the same reason I do not condone the banning of serene Grace. While the simple utterance of those words awakes within me the desire to kill myself, I know it is the right thing to do. Serene Grace and evasion abilities incorporate luck into the game, that is true, but not at the same level as something like Inconsistent. It is the same with Stone Edge (despite this being a somewhat extreme example in itself). Stone Edge has a high crit ratio, incorporating more luck inot the game, but it does not make the pokes with it overpowered, nor does it overcentralize the metagame. Sand Veil and the like, along with Serene Grace may make one want to destroy their opponent physically, yet there is no need to ban them, as they do not adversely affect the metagame.
Drizzle provides support to other pokemon, regardless if its on magcargo or not. If it provides enough support to make a number of pokemon broken, then it is broken.
If you mean magcargo is the one abusing it and isn't broken even with its support, then it is obviously not broken. I was merely listing abilities that had the potential to be broken (I.E. Can be broken in and of itself without any other traits in its carrier).
Shedinja is a rare case and I believe we should assume that a random poke carrying the ability has enough hp to only take normal percents from passive damage, except for cases where the only user is shedinja (wonderguard). Other than that small thing (that it doesn't have base 1 hp), I'd consider that enough to be user-independent.
Actually, evasion abilities are statistically better than double team. Also, I consider introducing luck with no other purpose but to introduce luck to be adversely affecting the metagame. It is not like flamethrower, where it has luck involved but that is not its only, or even main, purpose.
The points still stand.
Drizzle is not "broken" if nothing can efficiently use it, and neither is eccentric.
Extreme as the cases may be, it's still true while not being completely absurd like sending out a pokemon with these abilities and only splash.
I wasn't saying to ban the 2 evasion abilities simply that they are rather independent of their abusers. Unless someone brings the absolute accuracy moves or foresight or something like that, it doesn't particularly matter who has it.
I'm honestly finding this train of thought ridiculous. We're going back to empty semantics on what constitutes a bannable element of the game.
Drizzle + Swift Swim =/= broken. Proof: Luvdisc.
Gen 4 Garchomp =/= broken. Proof: Choice Specs Garchomp.
It seems like a completely ridiculous example, but can you really deny that it's based on the same logic? "Swift Swim has a certain distribution of Pokémon who get it, and that includes Luvdisc." but "Garchomp has a certain distribution of generic set types that are possible on it, and that includes Choice Specs." I'm reminded of the semantic arguments against banning Inconsistent last round because it was "not part of a Pokémon", unlike Soul Dew which was...?
Drizzle + Swift Swim =/= broken. Proof: Luvdisc.
Gen 4 Garchomp =/= broken. Proof: Choice Specs Garchomp.
It seems like a completely ridiculous example, but can you really deny that it's based on the same logic? "Swift Swim has a certain distribution of Pokémon who get it, and that includes Luvdisc." but "Garchomp has a certain distribution of generic set types that are possible on it, and that includes Choice Specs." I'm reminded of the semantic arguments against banning Inconsistent last round because it was "not part of a Pokémon", unlike Soul Dew which was...?
So drizzle + Swift Swim isn't broken because Luvdisc can't use swift swim effectively? That's like saying if magikarp had inconsistent, then inconsistent isn't broken on Octillery.
I've changed my mine on swift swim being banned, it shouldn't, I think that is where the confusion was coming from.
Read what I said to arc tech. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
If people want to see how Drizzle is without Manaphy, go to the beta server. Rain is still a major problem.
I have been playing the 5th Generation from the start at Beta, though the competition there is not the greatest and their team building is ehh, the top players there are on the level of most Smogon players. I was relatively on the top of the leaderboard so I was able to play against those players and Rain was still quite devastating even after Manaphy was banned. There are far too many abusers of Rain than Sandstorm, plus Rain offers a boost to Water attacks, which is a STAB for most Rain Abusers.
I know Smogon must go through a process before issuing any bans or suspect voting, but people also have to use the past and common sense. I believe in 4th Generation Kyorge and Groudon were tested at a lower level to see if their abilities were balanced, but even then it was proven that their effects were broken. I understand 5th Generation is a different game, but you have to look at 4th Generation to see why so and so was banned. By seeing the reasoning for why something was banned, then you can use it as a basis to see if they are still ban worthy in this metagame. Just think, is infinite Rain really healthy for the game? At least with Rain Dance, you have an opportunity to switch out, use a move, or prepare for the sweeper. Plus they were under the clock to perform their sweep, while with Drizzle they have to do nothing to set-up. They just have to attack and punch holes into your team.
For example, Garchomp was banned due to its bulk, power, speed, and its ability. His speed is no longer feared due to newer,faster threats. His bulk is still good, but with faster threats it will not be able to sweep as easily as it used to. Its power is now stopped by a few new defensive threats. His ability is still devastating.
Rain is a major discussion in this thread, but I think people should quit stating the obvious and consider other suspect possibilities such as the Lati@s Twins, Wobuffett, and Deoxys-S.
I think the Lati@s Twins should be banned due to Special Attack Prowess and amazing speed. It overcentralizes the metagame just like in 4th Generation. I run a Nattorei just to counter Water and the Lati@s Twins.
Wobbuffet almost always guarantees a free kill without any thinking. Shadow Tag is broken. Encore -> leads to free set-up. Has enough bulk to survive most attacks giving it easy kills. A skillless pokemon should not be allowed in the game.
Also when voting for suspects, you should think if this is banned how much will this pokemon or strategy improve. I am not saying you should choose that a suspect as well, but also think will that be balanced in the game with so and so banned.
I have been playing the 5th Generation from the start at Beta, though the competition there is not the greatest and their team building is ehh, the top players there are on the level of most Smogon players. I was relatively on the top of the leaderboard so I was able to play against those players and Rain was still quite devastating even after Manaphy was banned. There are far too many abusers of Rain than Sandstorm, plus Rain offers a boost to Water attacks, which is a STAB for most Rain Abusers.
I know Smogon must go through a process before issuing any bans or suspect voting, but people also have to use the past and common sense. I believe in 4th Generation Kyorge and Groudon were tested at a lower level to see if their abilities were balanced, but even then it was proven that their effects were broken. I understand 5th Generation is a different game, but you have to look at 4th Generation to see why so and so was banned. By seeing the reasoning for why something was banned, then you can use it as a basis to see if they are still ban worthy in this metagame. Just think, is infinite Rain really healthy for the game? At least with Rain Dance, you have an opportunity to switch out, use a move, or prepare for the sweeper. Plus they were under the clock to perform their sweep, while with Drizzle they have to do nothing to set-up. They just have to attack and punch holes into your team.
For example, Garchomp was banned due to its bulk, power, speed, and its ability. His speed is no longer feared due to newer,faster threats. His bulk is still good, but with faster threats it will not be able to sweep as easily as it used to. Its power is now stopped by a few new defensive threats. His ability is still devastating.
Rain is a major discussion in this thread, but I think people should quit stating the obvious and consider other suspect possibilities such as the Lati@s Twins, Wobuffett, and Deoxys-S.
I think the Lati@s Twins should be banned due to Special Attack Prowess and amazing speed. It overcentralizes the metagame just like in 4th Generation. I run a Nattorei just to counter Water and the Lati@s Twins.
Wobbuffet almost always guarantees a free kill without any thinking. Shadow Tag is broken. Encore -> leads to free set-up. Has enough bulk to survive most attacks giving it easy kills. A skillless pokemon should not be allowed in the game.
Also when voting for suspects, you should think if this is banned how much will this pokemon or strategy improve. I am not saying you should choose that a suspect as well, but also think will that be balanced in the game with so and so banned.
I was not stating broken abilities, I was stating abilities that could potentially be broken in and of themselves. That means they do not have to be (like snow warning).
If other pokes can abuse drizzle and become broken, then drizzle is broken under support, not its carrier- since it is drizzle alone that breaks them, not its carrier. If nothing could effectively abuse drizzle for support then it is not broken.
Eccentric is such that only shedinja couldn't effectively use it, which is such a rare case I would ocnsider it absurd.
Really not seeing why Drizzle didn't get the boot tbh. I played a fair bit of UU last gen and my god rain was everywhere, so rain isn't exactly new to me. The difference here is that they don't need to use a turn+moveslot+item to activate rain; they can just switch something in and bam the sun is gone. Rain's brokenness is all about how long it's activated for really, since rain is far easier to manage when it's only lasting a guaranteed 8 turns and you can play intelligently to try and kill the rain turns, and nail the rain user on the switch or something like that. You cannot do that with Drizzle. There is no playing around it outside of switching in Abomasnow/Hippowdon/Tyranitar/Ninetales, and guess what? 3/4 of those are weak to Water (although in Ninetales's case this changes upon switching in).
The other thing is that rain is clearly the most dominant weather. Sand is good but really there is only Doryuuzu/Randorosu that truly benefit from it offensively, which is two Pokemon. I'd much rather ban individuals in this case rather than banning Sand Stream, since otherwise it's pretty negligible. Sun is just nowhere near as good as even sand, since there is no Pokemon that benefits from both Chlorophyll and 2x STAB whereas in rain there are fuckloads. I don't think anyone would honestly say that Drought is broken since it's just so comparatively weak. Rain, however, has pretty much every Swift Swim user that is incredibly dangerous in 1-2 turns, and rather than banning ~10 Pokemon which are much less broken outside of rain, why not just ban Drizzle so they can't run around in permarain with no effort?
The other thing is that rain is clearly the most dominant weather. Sand is good but really there is only Doryuuzu/Randorosu that truly benefit from it offensively, which is two Pokemon. I'd much rather ban individuals in this case rather than banning Sand Stream, since otherwise it's pretty negligible. Sun is just nowhere near as good as even sand, since there is no Pokemon that benefits from both Chlorophyll and 2x STAB whereas in rain there are fuckloads. I don't think anyone would honestly say that Drought is broken since it's just so comparatively weak. Rain, however, has pretty much every Swift Swim user that is incredibly dangerous in 1-2 turns, and rather than banning ~10 Pokemon which are much less broken outside of rain, why not just ban Drizzle so they can't run around in permarain with no effort?
Agreed.
Drizzle and Swift swim not being compatible on teams as a clause is still something I will nominate, well unless/until a convincing argument is made against it.
I suppose I'm a little late to the party, but these guys in the 'Landlos for Ubers' camp had me laughing with their arguements.
"Landlos can tank LO Latias Surf!"
"Landlos OHKOs everything at +2 with sand!"
a) You have to have sand up, and keep it up. Not too hard. Too bad Landlos and Sand Streamers share a lot of weaknesses
b) You have to get a Swords Dance up. I think they just assume that everything that exists is going to switch out of Landlos, and let it get a Swords Dance.
c) It can OHKO everything!!! I guess these guys have never heard of revenge killers? Plus Ground is one of the most resisted / immune to types in the game with the boatload of Levitators and Flying-types.
d) You can hit those with Stone Edge for an OHKO!!! I hate to break it to you, but if you use Stone Edge, you're not using Swords Dance. Plus, I can use the prediction arguement as well; "I switch in Scarf Metagross as you Stone Edge".
e) Landlos, while having good stats, is not very bulky, especially with Life Orb and Stealth Rock eating away at its health. 22% every time you come in and fire off an attack sucks.
There. Felt I needed to say that.
"Landlos can tank LO Latias Surf!"
"Landlos OHKOs everything at +2 with sand!"
a) You have to have sand up, and keep it up. Not too hard. Too bad Landlos and Sand Streamers share a lot of weaknesses
b) You have to get a Swords Dance up. I think they just assume that everything that exists is going to switch out of Landlos, and let it get a Swords Dance.
c) It can OHKO everything!!! I guess these guys have never heard of revenge killers? Plus Ground is one of the most resisted / immune to types in the game with the boatload of Levitators and Flying-types.
d) You can hit those with Stone Edge for an OHKO!!! I hate to break it to you, but if you use Stone Edge, you're not using Swords Dance. Plus, I can use the prediction arguement as well; "I switch in Scarf Metagross as you Stone Edge".
e) Landlos, while having good stats, is not very bulky, especially with Life Orb and Stealth Rock eating away at its health. 22% every time you come in and fire off an attack sucks.
There. Felt I needed to say that.
We had two tests, one in Advance with lv1 Kyogre/Groudon, and another in DP (not DPPt, btw), with finite auto-rain/sun, and the test was held in CaP's (Create-A-Pokémon's) server. Obviously, both tests are more than irrelevant and I ask you to correct people on this issue whenever you see them talking about this "test" which has never actually happened in a Standard metagame, please.
Wait why
"Common sense" has been proven repeatedly to be inconsistent and sometimes outright wrong when it comes to banning stuff.
There was more than one guy?
Actually, I was responding to the guy who said swift swim made drizzle broken. Luvdisc was an example that it was not those two alone that were broken, but requiring decent offenses as well.
The really important part was the part below the luvdisc example, which I admit wasn't very strong anyway.
Thing is,with so many new powerful threats,it makes ST look less threatening,but I'm pretty sure it's going to be banned sooner or later :/
All the ST users have the right stats to abuse it,Duggy on the other hand,doesn't have those stats.
So although he doesn't have them,the 3 ST mons do. So instead of comparing them to Dugtrio,let's actually see if they're broken.
Shandera: Can trap and kill a crap ton of mons. Great revenge killer,but it can switch in on almost any Ice,Fire,Steel,Poison(not toxic though),Grass,Bug,Normal,and Fighting move and OHKO the other mon.
The list of mons Shandera can switch onto is huge.
Shandera can also abuse Choiced Fighting/Bug moves(either by Trick or by sheer luck) to set up and sweep your whole team.
Gochi: Bulkier,but weaker Shandera. Gochi is pretty much just as broken,but lacks all of Shandera's set up moves and sheer power,but what Gochi lacks in power,it most certainly makes up for in bulk.
Gochi can trap a lot of things Shandera can't,like Bulky Waters,and just either set up in their faces or outright kill them.
Wobb: We all know Wobb. He can do one of two things to your team. He can either give a set up sweeper one free turn of set up,or he can kill one of your mons.
I see them all as broken.
Switching is a huge part of pokemon,and these mons all prevent that and have the stats to abuse it in some way.
Shandera and Gochi can GUARANTEE one kill per game while Wobb can give you a free turn of Set up.
You can argue that Magnet Pull and Arena Trap are the same,but these mons can trap ANYTHING. It isn't restricted to just Steel types or anything that isn't Flying or doesn't have Levitate/Balloon.
From all my time on PO,people just hate it.
The biggest problem is how the only way to escape is by using and otherwise useless item.
Skarm can use it for Magnezone,but other mons like say Gliscor.
He needs his Toxic Orb or his ability is useless,while Shandera can come in(Preferably not on an EQ >.>) and easily kill with HP Ice.
Your Doryuuzu counter is now dead and you're ready to be swept :/
But all of them have alternatives now,and none of them are broken without it,so it MUST be the ability.
Ban Shadow Tag,not Gochi/Shandy/Wobb.
Back on to Drizzle.....the Drizzle + SS clause seems like it would work,but it might be too complex,and AFAIK,we want simplicity.
The thing is, it's not just shadow tag alone that is breaking them, but a combination of shadow tag and either excellent offenses, decent offenses and bulk, or excellent support options that are breaking them. This means they are broken, and not shadow tag, and that they are the ones who should be banned, not shadow tag.
For a more clear distinction between shadow tag and drizzle- you can ban all of politoed's commonly used/ semi-decent moves and have it still be broken, becuase of the support it provides its teammates through drizzle. However, you could ban encore, or counter+mirror coat on wobbuffet, and it wouldn't be broken anymore. It is a combination of shadow tag, encore, and countercoat that make wobb broken. It is NOT just the ability. (Dugtrio also supports this, if imperfectly- but once again I ask, would shadow tag really make a major difference for dugtrio?)
However, Shadow Tag is pretty game-changing, messing with what is viewed as a fundamental option/mechanic/whatever, so I can see it being banned for that.
Rain is not the problem, Manaphy is. But even then, Manaphy can be played against if a team is well-constructed. The reason people are complaining about rain is because basically everyone is using rain, even more so than sand. And sun is rarely seen (which is why I'm using a sun team to ladder to rub in their faces when their manaphy dies :P). Manaphy is bannable, I do not think Drizzle necessitates banning, as rain can be defeated.
Why not make other Ubers viable for OU by just saying something like: "Kyogre can be OU,but only if it's not carrying *insert moves here* with *insert other move here*"
It's just not right.
Take away ST from all of them and none become broken.
Restricting move sets is just stupid.
Here's an example:
Mence is only broken with Outrage,DD,and Intimidate. Take away Outrage,and Mence isn't as threatening.
Do you ban Intimidate or Outrage + DD? It'd be better to ban Intimidate(He can still use Moxie anyway >.>) than banning specific moves on a specific mon.
Outrage isn't broken on Flygon just how Encore isn't broken on Daikenki.
You can't ban the moves then.
Now when the ability is broken on ALL the mons with THAT ability,ban the damn ability.
Exactly.
I have a hunch it'll get banned once Drizzle/Manaphy/etc gets sorted out.
I made a Rain team in like 5 minutes.
Out of like 25 battles,I only lost like 3 or 4.
It wasn't even that hard at all. Every time,it went like this:
1.Check opponent's team for any potential "counters".
2.Bait them out and kill them.
3.Spam Hydro Pumps and win.
That was it.
I only lost because I either got greedy with my set ups or I let them set up themselves.
My team was:
Politoed
Kingdra
Ludicolo
Kabutops
Manaphy
Nattorei
Kingdra and Ludicolo did most of the sweeping,while Manphy and Kabutops usually died,but I blame my EVs,not the mons themselves,since I've been swept by them myself.
The only teams that provided any real challenge were GOOD Sand teams and GOOD rain teams.
Rain doesn't really take much skill at all.
I don't think that was what he was arguing at all. >_>
He was saying that because the movesets and w/e contribute to the pokemon's brokeness, the pokemon itself should be banned. Nothing about banning actual moves.
Thats what I was saying- you cannot take away shadow tag from them becuase that is exactly like removing moves from kyogre to make it OU. Shadow Tag itself is not broken, it is only broken when combined with other attributes- shandera's offenses, wobb's support options, Gochi's bulk and still having decent offenses.
Abilities and moves really aren't too different when it comes to pokemon set. The only distinctive attribute (as in differs from others) is species, becuase species is linked to a list of moves and abilities while moves and abilities are only linked to a list of species, and not to a list of the other.
We actually cannot say that Gochi and Shanderaa are broken with Shadow Tag because they are unavailable in Standard. Yes, there is Dream World tier, but this is Standard we're testing for. Saying that they're broken already is like saying that we should pre-ban Ditto, despite the fact that it has never been used in Standard. If you were to list Techniloom as a check to something, your argument would be invalid, because we don't know how it would react in a tier with entirely different abilities and none of the un-released mons. Until something actually enters Standard, don't talk about it here.
Well I don't think Inconsistent on Magikarp would be broken. You could say that the combination of sub., protect, and inconsistent was what made it broken. But it's a mood point.
So then.
Do you ban the combination,even though the mons themselves have options,or do you ban the actual mons?
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