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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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The difference is that tyranitar and hippowdon are actually good pokemon. For politoed, you have to justify using the teamslot on a subpar pokemon. If it does not bring enough support, then it does not justify the teamslot.
Also, swift swim itself cannot be broken becuase an agility in and of itself is not broken. The pokemon also needs excellent offenses (this is also often aided by drizzle). You can ban drizzle for support, or kingdra and ludicolo for being broken under somewhat common conditions, but not swift swim.
you have a point but it really comes down to what you want to preserve
do you want to preserve swift swim
ban drizzle
you want to preserve rain stall ban swift swim
but i still feel that drizzle requires a team to run a weather inducer of its own to counter the rain
swift swim is in my opinion the lesser of the two evils
Well,there's that angry snowflake,furijio,which trolls Chomp with its 105 Speed.
Anyway, I have a question.
Would Inconsistent be broken if the mons didn't have Sub + Protect to get their boosts?
but agility takes a turn
swift swim and drizzle are free
but in the end i agree with you
drizzle is the problem
banning the abusers just wrecks the metagame
I agree entirely that the sheer number of Rain abusers is part of the issue - because they made so many, Gamefreak were bound to make some which were very powerful and synergised together excellently. To me at least it seems that the combo of Ludicolo, Kingdra, and Kabutops is by far the most common aspect of a Rain team, excluding Manaphy and Politoed. You make a very interesting point I hadn't really considered about Rain Offense still being deadly without Swift Swim, which may indeed be true, especially as it is likely to be even more diverse when not packing 3-4 Swift Swimming Water types.
Sand or its abusers I don't see as broken at present, and probably not even if Drizzle were gone either. However I see your point that if SS Offense becomes an issue that the two primary abusers could be banned, whereas Rain is still a threat without Manaphy and Swift Swim. I do think that without Swift Swimmers at all though, Rain offense would be manageable and not as centralising - given that barely anything can outspeed them and they can typically OHKO many threats. Very threatening yes, but certainly not broken. You're somewhat making the idea of banning Swift Swim instead a more practical option, as it leaves Kingdra for general use and simply alters Rain Offense's playstyle somewhat.
This is part of the reason why I advocated for the possible banning of Kingdra, Ludicolo, etc. They are the most advatageously typed and viable Swift Swimmers for sure, and it is their lack of weaknesses common to Rain that makes them such a problem to deal with for many teams. Eliminating them would reduce one of the strengths of a swift swim heavy team too - being able to take Elec and grass neutrally on key sweepers. I agree with you that the team advantage when using Drizzle is a tad overpowering against a lot of playstyles, but I just think that removing it from the equation altogether is a worse idea than trying to rebalance it to the best of our ability.
@ Astrohawke, yeah there are a hell of a lot of good swift swimmers, but my point is that as Reachzero says, their typing is amazing and makes abusing a common weakness like you can do for Sand to some extent impossible. Moreover, Kingdra's stats and movepool are far superior to any other Swift Swimmer's, as its OU status last Gen proves, so surely without the more powerful Swift Swimmers Rain may not be the broken playstyle it is currently held to be?
Does "capable" mean "broken"? That's what I'm saying.
Who cares about such philosophical questioning? They have, that's all that matters.
I think the only bans the metagame needs at this moment are Drizzle and Doryuuzu. Drizzle obviously causes the broken Perma-Rain, Doryuuzu being banned would mean Sand isn't overpowered.
Chomp might be banned some time too, but I dunno about that.
Chomp might be banned some time too, but I dunno about that.
I've been reading through this, and I think the ability shouldn't be banned. Its just a matter of playing around. Since I took a long (4 month) break from Competitive Battling, I returned to find the new Gen 5 running amok with all the new Pokemon wreaking havoc everywhere.
I had problems with a lot of threats, but never with Rain. Its really just a matter of good team building and synergy. Two Pokemon that I have constantly found to work WONDERS against rain teams, Birijion and Empoleon. Birijion is so specially bulky, that even with very little investment in SDef and NONE in HP, it can take an Ice Beam from an LO Ludicolo, and hit it back for good damage with X-Scissor. Birijion can also effectively handle Kabutops and Zapdos. And Rotom-W is usually choiced on Rain teams, so that can be effectively handled with prediction.
Now one might ask, "What about Kingdra?" That's where Empoleon comes in. The Defensive Empoleon from the analysis right here on Smogon is more than enough to lol @ Kingdra. It can take repeated hits from Kingdra as it resists both its STABs, and can Roar away any boosts it might have accumulated along the way. It can also wear Kingdra down with a few Ice Beams, 3HKOing iirc.
These two Pokemon aforementioned even work spectacularly together as they synergize well with each other. I'm not saying "ZOMG! GREAT RAIN COUNTERS! EVERYONE RUN THIS!!" But all I'm saying is that, Rain isn't as OP as is being portrayed in this thread, it's just a matter of playing around it. But if a ban is necessary, I say ban the most OP Rain abuser at the moment, which is Manaphy, then observe the meta and see if more bans are in order. Simple as that
I had problems with a lot of threats, but never with Rain. Its really just a matter of good team building and synergy. Two Pokemon that I have constantly found to work WONDERS against rain teams, Birijion and Empoleon. Birijion is so specially bulky, that even with very little investment in SDef and NONE in HP, it can take an Ice Beam from an LO Ludicolo, and hit it back for good damage with X-Scissor. Birijion can also effectively handle Kabutops and Zapdos. And Rotom-W is usually choiced on Rain teams, so that can be effectively handled with prediction.
Now one might ask, "What about Kingdra?" That's where Empoleon comes in. The Defensive Empoleon from the analysis right here on Smogon is more than enough to lol @ Kingdra. It can take repeated hits from Kingdra as it resists both its STABs, and can Roar away any boosts it might have accumulated along the way. It can also wear Kingdra down with a few Ice Beams, 3HKOing iirc.
These two Pokemon aforementioned even work spectacularly together as they synergize well with each other. I'm not saying "ZOMG! GREAT RAIN COUNTERS! EVERYONE RUN THIS!!" But all I'm saying is that, Rain isn't as OP as is being portrayed in this thread, it's just a matter of playing around it. But if a ban is necessary, I say ban the most OP Rain abuser at the moment, which is Manaphy, then observe the meta and see if more bans are in order. Simple as that
I disagree with this. It is quite simply a double standard, banning one weather, than banning the abusers of another standard. You can argue that they have different numbers, but that isn't too important becuase there are only a few that need to be banned to theoretically balance rain, and sandslash is nearly as good as dory and will probably be banned in the same way- not to mention that Dory and Sandslash can have even greater offensive synergy than rain teams, with one luring and weakening the problems they share and the other sweeping.
but thats running counters to rain
rain counters arent hard to find
but the fact is that if you dont have one youre definately losing a good amount of battles
which in my opinion isnt very diverse of the metagame
theres the arguement that you have to prepare for threats like rain
but when rain is as prevalent as it is
it practically owns the metagame
each thing needs to be handled individually
one solution wont work for rain and sand
both are different
sand abusers are a few overpowering threats
rain abusers dont even need any effects in to be good
rain is better
to put it plainly
I agree that rain counters can be found, and yes if you don't have one you will lose many battles to rain. However the same applies for any threat. If you have no ScarfChomp counter prepare to be raped. If you have no Lati counter likewise. Doryuuzu even more so. You have to pack something so that your team can deal with as many of the common threats as possible, it's simply a facet of teambuilding. Rain is no different in that respect, the issue it seems is that with its diversity it can be hard to pack something that beats Ludicolo, Kabutops, Kingdra and Manaphy without compromising your team to other playstyles.
There are only a few overpowering rain abusers as well. Floatzel and friends won't break the metagame like kingdra and ludicolo. All that banning rain rather than the abusers and banning Doryuuzu and not sandstorm is doing is sticking to the status quo of Gen IV, which is not something we should do. Heck, doryuuzu isn't even really broken. It is very priority weak, as well as spikes and passive damage vulnerable if it runs LO.
But why would you build a team without considering all the possible threats? Its like going into a 4th Gen OU battle, with a Mence weak team. Dude you're gonna get raped. When the awesomeness of Sand was freshly discovered, there was a huge rise in Roobushin usage, just to try and take out all the Doryuuzu running around. I see Sand used more than rain in every single server I go to on Pokemon Online, but you don't see people saying "NUUUU LETS THROW THE BANHAMMER UPSIDE DORY'S HEAD!!!" That's because, they found a way it can be played around (TechniLoom/Roob/UnburdenLee). You may also bring up the argument that, if we have to find a specific way of beating rain, it's overcentralizing. Its not like the pokes that are used to counter rain are useless outside of that job. Birijion can be used as a bulky boosting tank, Empoleon can be used in conjunction with Gliscor to form a solid defensive core. It's just a matter of knowing how to deal with what you're faced with.
Even if it doesn't outspeed Dory, it still has Mach Punch to deal a crap ton of damage to it. As to whether its released or not, I do not know, all I know is that its allowed to be used on Pokemon Online, it works, so Imma use it. Even a Gliscor with 252 HP and 40 Def can take on Dory VERY well. It can take a +2 LO Rock Slide to the face and OHKO back with Earthquake
of course theres ways of dealing with major threats
and a team should be built around that
but finding a counter for the rain abusers in hard enough
plus sand abusers
weather is just too overcentralizing
i use a mid game abomasnow just to clear the weather
its at a point where the weather is getting ridiculous
and a team should be built around that
but finding a counter for the rain abusers in hard enough
plus sand abusers
weather is just too overcentralizing
i use a mid game abomasnow just to clear the weather
its at a point where the weather is getting ridiculous
Then it's not allowed on Standard,and therefore can't counter.
IIRC,a Roob's Mach Punch can't OHKO a Balloon Doryuuzu,while an EQ can OHKO Roob back.(Correct me on that if I'm wrong)
The best RELEASED counters to Dory are Gliscor and Skarmory.
Sandslash is nowhere near as good as Dory. It's much slower and much weaker.
Choice Band, or Guts + Protect Status Orb Roopushin OHKO Dory with Mach Punch. I've used it before, it works.
And anyone with half a brain is not going to let Dory set up for nothing, and will hit it, even if just to pop the baloon. Most attack swill lower Dory to the point where Roopushin can OHKO it.
And anyone with half a brain is not going to let Dory set up for nothing, and will hit it, even if just to pop the baloon. Most attack swill lower Dory to the point where Roopushin can OHKO it.
Actually, Bronzong is the best counter next to Gliscor. Resists everything Doryuuzu can throw at him besides X-Scissor and can hit back with Earthquake or royally fuck up Doryuuzu with Trick Room.
You seem to be of the opinion that the current amount of weather in the meta is a bad thing, I ask you why? Admittedly there is a lot more weather now than there ever was in Gen 4 anywhere but Ubers, but why is this not desirable? And is weather truly that overcentralising? In extremis, you can run a weather move on a random poke to deal with it, if you don't want it up at all and don't wish to use other methods to deal with it. This is not much different from running Rapid Spin to deal with SR - they both use a moveslot otherwise better used for something else, but weather moves are much better distributed. Weather may have the effect of making some pokes less viable, but the same can be said for Moltres and Charizard with SR. Both are simply a change in the metagame, one which some people may not like, but not one that should be eliminated lightly, and should instead be adapted to as best you can.
I like how you ignored the part in which he said that Doryuuzu is going to get weakened while it sets up which causes it to be KO'd by Mach Punch.
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