np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[DahliaSky]

lol...stop changing the subject on me and then calling me naive. You said that removing swift swim removes an entire style of play because you naively thought swift swim offense is the only type of rain HO and I proved otherwise. No one said anything about whether it would be better than sun or not. And it's plenty worth it to use politoed for the bonuses rain provides which includes 100% accurate thunder and hurricane and -50% fire on top of making use of abilities like rain dish and hydration.



Just because you say something has been proven invalid doesn't make it so. That's what people who have no valid arguments say to try and end an argument as if it shows they're right.

And swift swim as an ability is broken. It's effectively an ability that raises speed by 2x. When you compare it to other abilities like download, guts, quick feet etc anything that alters a stat, it only changes it by 1.5x or 1 level never 2. Therefore, as an ability, swift swim is way better than most other abilities.

but as you pointed out, its mostly on pokemon with low atk/satk. It has not only a large number of counter, but a weakness to many different normal styles of play (such as paralysis) that can easily tank many hits from any swift swimmer and paralyze/poison/burn or just kill. Here: If you take an entire team of swift swimmers and drizzle, it is nowhere near broken and just as gimmicky as ran dance was in gen 5.

You are arguing that an ability that has easily been walled and stopped for generation 4 would now... not be walled and stopped when even more counters have come up with no new abusers? I do not know how you can think that it is broken. The problem, as i said, is the switching and stalling counters.

edit: wording was confusing, sorry.

 

[Ndota]

That would certainly be nice if it were true, yet banning drizzle doesn't do away with any style of play, while banning SS certainly would.

You know there is a sandstorm move right? Banning drizzle and sandstream is pretty much the same thing. If people say that we should use drizzle and use rain dance instead, I say we should ban sandstream and drought as well and just use sandstorm and sunny day. I don't want to ban any weather abilities, but banning the rest of the weather is only fair when one weather is banned IMO.

 

[ssbbm]

^^ That isn't true if only one weather is broken. That's like saying that we should ban all the dragons because its only fair when one dragon is banned.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

You know there is a sandstorm move right? Banning drizzle and sandstream is pretty much the same thing. If people say that we should use drizzle and use rain dance instead, I say we should ban sandstream and drought as well and just use sandstorm and sunny day. I don't want to ban any weather abilities, but banning the rest of the weather is only fair when one weather is banned IMO.

Its not abut it being fair, and it never was, its about whats broken. Permanent rain is a lot more powerful than permanent sand, it is not the same thing at all.

 

[astrohawke]

but as you pointed out, its mostly on pokemon with low atk/satk. It has not only a large number of counter, but a weakness to many different normal styles of play (such as paralysis) that can easily tank many hits from any swift swimmer and paralyze/poison/burn or just kill. Here: If you take an entire team of switch swimmer and drizzle, it is nowhere near broken and just as gimmicky as ran dance was in gen 5.

You are arguing that an ability is OP that has easily been walled and stopped for generation 4 would now... not be walled and stopped when even more counters have come up with no new abusers? I do not know how you can think that it is broken. The problem, as i said, is the switching and stalling counters.

Seriously you make no sense. People have been saying for 30 pages that they're hard to counter and you're saying they have a large number of counters. I also said they have low atk/spatk but in rain they hit as hard as anything with high atk but that's ok as long as they are either strong or fast but not both. I can handle deoxys-S who's fast with <100 attack. I can handle Rampardos who's strong but is easily outsped. But I can't handle Deoxys-A who hits harder than Rampardos and outspeeds everything as well.

The problem is you have to either remove the power or the speed and it becomes manageable. You don't need to remove both. But as the only way to remove the power would be to remove rain completely and with it you remove other balanced strategies involving rain, it's far better to just remove the speed.

 

[DahliaSky]

You know there is a sandstorm move right? Banning drizzle and sandstream is pretty much the same thing. If people say that we should use drizzle and use rain dance instead, I say we should ban sandstream and drought as well and just use sandstorm and sunny day. I don't want to ban any weather abilities, but banning the rest of the weather is only fair when one weather is banned IMO.

I agree, but I also think it won't be in this sustest that we review the other weathers unfortunately. One step at a time i 'spose ^^ in like 5 or 6 more tests maybe we'll see a balanced meta :3

 

[Lightning Tiger]

They are not the same, Sand and Rain are completely different weather, and rain has more benefits by far.

 

[masterful]

No it doesn't, for a speed sweep yes.
As a weather? No.
Water is still an amazzing type and dual stab is loved regardless of swift swim.
Thunder & Hurricane are good still, and the users of those moves aren't water pokemon...unless your like running Lanturn.

If politoed was a crap pokemon maybe, but with Drizzle it really isn't even outside of it's team mates because it brings the rain it gets double stab right the bat every time it comes in, it's hardly weak, and it's definitely got some bulk on it.

Kingdra can also still sweep.


Rain makes them BETTER.
Agility Empoleon is another example.
It's pointless to say they are good without rain, that doesn't take away from the point of their still being offense in rain. Outside of swift swim there are numerous pokemon that benefit from infinite rain being present.

But rain doesn't make them better enough to earn a slot

 

[ensoriki]

But rain doesn't make them better enough to earn a slot

A subjective view that is nowhere close to being witty.

 

[I.care.0]

Okay, I've read a good part of this thread, and I'm just trying to understand the Swift Swim vs Drizzle ban debate.



If Drizzle give the swift swim sweepers permanent double stab, plus +2 speed without any kind of set-up, why would only the +2 provided by Swift swim be the source of the problem? Also, you know, CM Manaphy. A simple +2 to speed isn't ground breaking, or everyone would be talking about banning Agility, Rock Polish or Speed Boost. The same +2 with no set-up, plus double stab, plus the other little boosts? Oozes brokenness. (Is that a word?) Without Drizzle, Swift Swimmers are forced to set-up like any other sweeper, giving the opponent a free turn.

I'm aware that perma-rain opens up new kinds of team and sets, namely, rain stall and whatnot, but wouldn't banning only swift swim the same as saying "arceus with X revisions to it's movepool isn't UBER"? If Drizzle is broken under X circumstances, it is broken and should be banned regardless of others uses.

Plus, banning Drizzle wouldn't make rain inviable. It would make rain teams inviable. Which is kind of the point, since it's pretty clear that it's broken. RD Kingdra would still be an amazing sweeper, and a weather counter to boot.

 

[masterful]

A subjective view that is nowhere close to being witty.

Huh? All of this is subjective. That's the point? And wth is this about witty? Banning swift swim would kill rain offense, how can you deny that?

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Like, if there was a machine that turned people into zombies, why on earth would you go around trying to kill all of the zombies in the world when you could just destroy the machine and turn everyone back into their normal, human selves? You don't even know how many zombies there are or where they might be hiding! You're just wasting time on a pointless war when the solution for peace is within arm's length.

Of course, if you destroyed the machine, it wouldn't make all the zombies turn back into people. It would just prevent more zombies from being created. Then you'd have to do all that anyway. It'd still be the first thing to do, but the zombies would still be there, using the zombie virus to turn other people into zombies. Which is not what would happen if Drizzle was banned. So it's not like that.

Let's have a Drizzle Clause! I changed my mind about banning Drizzle, but I have an Adamant nature about not letting it be Uber. Rain is still super good with 8 turns to do it, because then you can use your attacks in 8 turns and you will still be sweeping. But, it's only 8 turns. Also, it makes Electrode good again. Yay Electrode!

Also, I know who you are to break tradition. You're Bob. You're Bob to break tradition.

 

[masterful]

Of course, if you destroyed the machine, it wouldn't make all the zombies turn back into people. It would just prevent more zombies from being created. Then you'd have to do all that anyway. It'd still be the first thing to do, but the zombies would still be there, using the zombie virus to turn other people into zombies. Which is not what would happen if Drizzle was banned. So it's not like that.

Let's have a Drizzle Clause! I changed my mind about banning Drizzle, but I have an Adamant nature about not letting it be Uber. Rain is still super good with 8 turns to do it, because then you can use your attacks in 8 turns and you will still be sweeping. But, it's only 8 turns. Also, it makes Electrode good again. Yay Electrode!

Also, I know who you are to break tradition. You're Bob. You're Bob to break tradition.

Why don't you want it to be Uber?

 

[ensoriki]

Huh? All of this is subjective. That's the point? And wth is this about witty? Banning swift swim would kill rain offense, how can you deny that?

Not really.
It wouldn't kill rain offense, I can deny it because it's false.
Empoleon, Kingdra, Floatzel, Gorebyss, Huntail, Cloyster, Kerudio (not released) can all sweep in rain.
Cursepert also hits hard in rain.
Wishcash can dragon dance and rest damage off and attempt a sweep as well.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Not really.
It wouldn't kill rain offense, I can deny it because it's false.
Empoleon, Kingdra, Floatzel, Gorebyss, Huntail, Cloyster, Kerudio (not released) can all sweep in rain.
Cursepert also hits hard in rain.
Wishcash can dragon dance and rest damage off and attempt a sweep as well.

none of which necessarily requires drizzle. Rain Dance is just fine.

 

[capefeather]

Weakening Drizzle from doing what? Raining harder on you? Drizzle does NOTHING but ignite Swift Swimmers.

I doubt that you're going to read this considering it's been said several times and ignored, but Drizzle takes less time to set up than Rain Dance does, and it doesn't take up a move slot. One turn of "lag" is huge. I mentioned Ditto before, but a less extreme example is Intimidate. No one uses Growl, yet Intimidate is considered one of the best abilities in the game. It's the same advantage. And what about Swift Swim? Dragon Dance is typically hard to pull off and wouldn't even be worth it without the attack boost (except on Latios I guess), and Agility is very rarely used and often very impractical unless the user itself is very good. Yet Swift Swim's auto-boost is, again, one of the best abilities in the game. Speed Boost, too. Agility couldn't pull Blaziken into OU; Speed Boost did.

 

[ensoriki]

none of which necessarily requires drizzle. Rain Dance is just fine.

This has nothing to do with the point.

 

[masterful]

Not really.
It wouldn't kill rain offense, I can deny it because it's false.
Empoleon, Kingdra, Floatzel, Gorebyss, Huntail, Cloyster, Kerudio (not released) can all sweep in rain.
Cursepert also hits hard in rain.
Wishcash can dragon dance and rest damage off and attempt a sweep as well.

They can all sweep without rain, too. That's not rain offense, that's just sweepers with a minor boost to their STAB

 

[ensoriki]

They can all sweep without rain, too. That's not rain offense, that's just sweepers with a minor boost to their STAB

If that's what you think I doubt it's even worth discussing this with you.
As if you think like that, then Doryuuzu is the only sand sweeper >.>.
offensive manipulating rain is rain offence, that's it, what you do in rain is what defines it.
Ridiculous.

 

[SJCrew]

Of course, if you destroyed the machine, it wouldn't make all the zombies turn back into people. It would just prevent more zombies from being created.

My scenario dictates that they will turn back into people, so that's exactly what it'll do. End of discussion.

 

[masterful]

If that's what you think I doubt it's even worth discussing this with you.
As if you think like that, then Doryuuzu is the only sand sweeper >.>.
offensive manipulating rain is rain offence, that's it, what you do in rain is what defines it.
Ridiculous.

But you are really making it far less effective. If you simply ban Drizzle, you can have Swift Swimmers, and the like still, but not overpowered

 

[ensoriki]

But you are really making it far less effective. If you simply ban Drizzle, you can have Swift Swimmers, and the like still, but not overpowered

If you ban swift swim you can have stallers and the like, but not overpowered.

Just ban Kingdra, Ludi, Kabu & Manaphy.
Or ban swift swim.
Or have a Drizzle + swift swim clause.
Or if we really want to troll but in a ability clause to mirror species clause.
or rock the boat.

I can say whatever comes to mind too.

 

[SlimMan]

masterful, I normally disagree with you. But for once, I think you're entirely right.

May I use an analogy? People are saying that dual STAB will be enough to keep rain offense alive. So as an example, let's examine Porygon-Z. If it uses Download, it gets +1 (assume it gets the Sp Atk). If it uses Adaptability, it practically gets dual STAB. Basically, Porygon-Z is a pokemon who gets a pseudo-equivalent of dual STAB. But it cannot sweep well. Why? Because its middling speed simply doesn't allow it to go first. It gets KOed.

But then I'm sure people will say that this new "rain offense" will take a bulkier form. Let's look at Porygon2. It's certainly bulky, and let's say for the moment that it runs Download. It would get a free +1, essentially having dual STAB. But how much do you think a Porygon2 will sweep. Not well, because despite its bulk, it has a somewhat mediocre Sp Atk stat.

My point is people, that if you ran pokemon who can use the dual STAB, they get out-sped and KOed. If you use pokemon who can take a hit, they lack sufficient power to get the job done.

While this isn't always true, it is for this particular scenario. The highest Sp Atk on any Bulky Water is 110 (Vaporeon). With a terrible offensive movepool, no way to boost any stat, and a multitude of counters, even that cannot do much.

If you look at the pool of all Water-types, you'll see that the 1.5x boost will simply not make the cut without Swift Swim. Banning Swift Swim pretty much does kill rain offense.

edit: Because I know that people will say "Thunder, Hurricane, etc." I must say this. Lanturn and Rotom-W are the only Water-types who get Thunder. Pelipper and Swanna are the only two Water-types who get Hurricane (I think). And none of those are good sweepers atm.

So in order to have a STAB Hurricane or Thunder, you'll generally have to use non-Water-types. But then you lose out on dual STAB. So it's really not worth it on an HO rain team.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

If you ban swift swim you can have stallers and the like, but not overpowered.

Just ban Kingdra, Ludi, Kabu & Manaphy.
Or ban swift swim.
Or have a Drizzle + swift swim clause.
Or if we really want to troll but in a ability clause to mirror species clause.
or rock the boat.

I can say whatever comes to mind too.

You can still have stallers the like with rain dance, getting rid of drizzle wont affect that, rain can still exist as it always has.

 

[SlimMan]

You can still have stallers the like with rain dance, getting rid of drizzle wont affect that, rain can still exist as it always has.

Exactly.

Stallers would still exist with Damp Rock. They just wouldn't be NEARLY as effective. In fact, they wouldn't be effective at all. But they WOULD exist.

Removing Swift Swim does an equivalent thing to rain sweepers.