np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[breh]

after getting up to a half-decent rank on PO (237; 1187 or something like that) I can't really understand why people bitch so much about rain. It's really easy to beat most of the time with pursuit tar. vs. Politoed lead, if it's slower, use Stone Edge, and if it's faster, use pursuit. You win by killing their weather poke.

Also I've been seeing many, many rain teams run Landlos. very interesting IMO.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

after getting up to a half-decent rank on PO (237; 1187 or something like that) I can't really understand why people bitch so much about rain. It's really easy to beat most of the time with pursuit tar. vs. Politoed lead, if it's slower, use Stone Edge, and if it's faster, use pursuit. You win by killing their weather poke.

Also I've been seeing many, many rain teams run Landlos. very interesting IMO.

I'm around 197 or so....I went from 14000 to 197 in 2 days with just my rain team >.>
Rain teams destroy my regular team,and if I make it so I can beat rain teams,I get destroyed by Sand teams. I just said "Screw it" and make a rain team to get my voting rights...seriously....rain teams are ridiculous.
I might switch to a sand team though,here in the higher parts of the ladder,people carry way too many rain counters.(which my regular team can pretty much wreck since Toxicroak isn't exactly the best fighting type)

Drizzle makes it way too easy to rise in the ranks :/

 

[Nanoswine]

post

I give up, the circular logic is killing me. Also the whole "my argument" "your argument" "my response to your argument" "your same argument" "repeating my response to your argument" is annoying.

@Breludicolo, Rain generally loses to well-played Sand because Rain teams aren't usually built very well. Pretty much every team is Toed/Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Nattorei/filler, so any half-decent Sand team has a way to take them down. The problem with Rain is that if you don't run Sandstorm or lolNinetalesorObama, the Rain team will sweep you, hands down. On the other hand, Sandstorm is, for a large part, handled very well by Bulky Waters and Gliscor. So basically, if you don't run Sand you will lose to Rain pretty consistently, whereas a team can prepare for Sand without having to run a weather changer. At least that's what I get from it.

 

[masterful]

Man, people overreact to rain so badly.

You want to ban Ludicolo of all damned things but I have not seen a person complain about Dory in a good fucking while in this thread.

I don't think that people want to actually ban rain abusers to make rain balanced. They want to ban Rain abusers so Sand becomes the dominant, uncompetitioned weather again just like Gen IV because people REFUSE to play a new metagame and want to play shit like Gen IV where switching in TTar means permanent Sand with virtually no exceptions.

What is wrong with you people.

I want to ban Drizzle, Dortuuzu, Shadow Tag, Landlos, and every other broken ability or pokemon that is ruining this meta. I just feel drizzle needs to be dealt with first, and for some reason, people disagree

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I give up, the circular logic is killing me. Also the whole "my argument" "your argument" "my response to your argument" "your same argument" "repeating my response to your argument" is annoying.

@Breludicolo, Rain generally loses to well-played Sand because Rain teams aren't usually built very well. Pretty much every team is Toed/Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Nattorei/filler, so any half-decent Sand team has a way to take them down. The problem with Rain is that if you don't run Sandstorm or lolNinetalesorObama, the Rain team will sweep you, hands down. On the other hand, Sandstorm is, for a large part, handled very well by Bulky Waters and Gliscor. So basically, if you don't run Sand you will lose to Rain pretty consistently, whereas a team can prepare for Sand without having to run a weather changer. At least that's what I get from it.

Pretty much >.>
Most of my losses are from,lol guess what? Sand teams.
Despite a Sand team being full of Ice and Water weaknesses,they're bulkier,and can usually take unboosted hits,as well as scaring off most of my frailish team with high attack stats.
Sand > Rain > Everything else
Even Hail fails since any hazards make Obamasnow useless.

 

[10fore]

Everyone who keeps bringing up Rain Dance as a replacement for drizzle needs to stop wishing they were playing 4th gen.

People keep acting as if Drizzletoed rain teams are some abberation, or anomaly, and once they're gone, everything will go back to normal. But if you look at USAGE STATS (omg), you'll find that the Drizzletoed rain teams ARE the normal rain teams. So, people want to ban drizzle to resurrect the Gen4 rain team. That's what is so absurd. Change your paradigm to now.

In 5th gen, the standard rain team has Politoed. Period. Unless drizzletoed is broken (nobody argues that it is), it shouldn't be banned.

EDIT: People argue that drizzletoad is banned

Why would we keep broken pokemon in the meta just to preserve the playstyle of 4th gen rain teams? You fools look like Cher, tryin' to turn back time.

Also consider that swift swim is one of the commonest abilities in the game. If you think rain offense will be dead if Kingdra and Co get banned, think again. Even if you thought the same thing twice, you're still wrong. Rain is still the beast of a weather that let a shit pokemon like ludicolo become potentially broken, and made already good pokemon like Kingdra monstrous.

 

[Sheaz]

No, that's not what support charcteristic means. Support Characteristic was made for Wobbuffet, in that he made every single sweeper easier to use, and better. Drizzle only gives the select few good Swift Swim and Hydration users the ability to sweep easily. It doesn't break all Swift Swimmers, and it doesn't make anything that doesn't have a rain affiliated ability better.

Of course the sensible thing to do is change the definition to your liking.

 

[masterful]

Everyone who keeps bringing up Rain Dance as a replacement for drizzle needs to stop wishing they were playing 4th gen.

People keep acting as if Drizzletoed rain teams are some abberation, or anomaly, and once they're gone, everything will go back to normal. But if you look at USAGE STATS (omg), you'll find that the Drizzletoed rain teams ARE the normal rain teams. So, people want to ban drizzle to resurrect the Gen4 rain team. That's what is so absurd. Change your paradigm to now.

In 5th gen, the standard rain team has Politoed. Period. Unless drizzletoed is broken (nobody argues that it is), it shouldn't be banned.

Why would we keep broken pokemon in the meta just to preserve the playstyle of 4th gen rain teams? You fools look like Cher, tryin' to turn back time.

Also consider that swift swim is one of the commonest abilities in the game. If you think rain offense will be dead if Kingdra and Co get banned, think again. Even if you thought the same thing twice, you're still wrong. Rain is still the beast of a weather that let a shit pokemon like ludicolo become potentially broken, and made already good pokemon like Kingdra monstrous.

EVERYONE IS ARGUING THAT DRIZZLETOAD IS BROKEN! I feel like a moron using all caps, but I hope you will be able to actually notice this post when your scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the last post and reply by making up another untrue fact

 

[Fluffy Otters]

There should be a grand metagame test to decide which people like more: weather or non-weather and then have two seperate metagames. Clearly the weather issue is going nowhere and is just too divisive.

When Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo are being suggested for Uber, I know Poliwrath/Qwilfish/Floatzel and maybe Gorebyss/Huntail will be as well (f-Nattorei, if Nattorei is gone, they beat the crap out of you and they can Baton Pass and behind a Screen, they are GUARANTEED to get a Shell BreaK). Don't laugh at Qwilfish or Floatzel, Qwilfish is a very good Swift Swimmer and Floatzel is actually naturally fast.

I mean Floatzel wipes out Landlos, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Doryuzu, Terakion, etc WITHOUT Rain. Imagine the horrors of a pokemon with over 700 spd beating down on you aftwards? Or Belly Drum Poliwrath that Tyranitar or Nattorei can't switch on and the only ways to win are by Burungeru/Ditto.

 

[10fore]

@Masterful- Nobody says that Drizzletoad is broken by itself, or that drizzle breaks politoed. People say that drizzle breaks other pokemon, which is different. People want to ban drizzletoad so that swift swimmers aren't broken (and manaphy). I'll change my wording, though.

 

[masterful]

There should be a grand metagame test to decide which people like more: weather or non-weather and then have two seperate metagames. Clearly the weather issue is going nowhere and is just too divisive.

When Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo are being suggested for Uber, I know Poliwrath/Qwilfish/Floatzel and maybe Gorebyss/Huntail will be as well (f-Nattorei, if Nattorei is gone, they beat the crap out of you and they can Baton Pass and behind a Screen, they are GUARANTEED to get a Shell BreaK). Don't laugh at Qwilfish or Floatzel, Qwilfish is a very good Swift Swimmer and Floatzel is actually naturally fast.

I mean Floatzel wipes out Landlos, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Doryuzu, Terakion, etc WITHOUT Rain. Imagine the horrors of a pokemon with over 700 spd beating down on you aftwards? Or Belly Drum Poliwrath that Tyranitar or Nattorei can't switch on and the only ways to win are by Burungeru/Ditto.

Clearly Drizzle will be banned. This suspect test will ban Drizzle, and I simpply debate because I cannot stand the notion that people consider drizzle viable and balanced. Second, Floatzel does none of those things, and the majority of them can OHKO him

 

[DahliaSky]

after getting up to a half-decent rank on PO (237; 1187 or something like that) I can't really understand why people bitch so much about rain. It's really easy to beat most of the time with pursuit tar. vs. Politoed lead, if it's slower, use Stone Edge, and if it's faster, use pursuit. You win by killing their weather poke.

Also I've been seeing many, many rain teams run Landlos. very interesting IMO.

Very good point. The swift swimmers certainly aren't used by themselves to kill whole teams as they are normally not enough. They are good, but its very easy to live through a hit or two and paralyze them... at which point their ability to swim fast is crap.

Also I would like to point out that I've now laddered to a 74 ranking using a kingdra that supports itself. Kingdra is nowhere near broken, and requires the same maintenance as DDmence with less power... but it is often a great way to boost then take out 1-2 pokemon toward the end of the game (like a normal boosting sweeper). It also tends to put other weather in a bind, as ttar,hippo,or ninetails can switch in... but I can just hit them with a second Hydro pump to KO then use dance again.

Kingdra with swift swim is not broken, but is as useful as a normal boosted sweeper. Mine is normally forced out well before the 5 turns of rain are up... so i don't even bother with damp rock.

The problem is the combination of switches that is allowed by drizzle.

In drizzle if Kingdra is by itself? not broken. Kabutops by itself? not broken. Ludicolo by itself? not broken.

Try it, make a team with just one of them and politoed. You'll find that at max you'll get a kill or two per game with it, like a normal sweeper. You'll find it getting paralyzed by misch heart or natt/bulky waters all the time and becomming almost useless. You'll find that tspikes or toxic stall are deadly. You'll also find that getting it in without status can be hard, or just getting it out without taking large amounts of damage. They are frail (kingdra's the best, but even that can only take a couple hits if it's offensive), so without the other two, a few counter removal pokes, and a good prediction or two you'll find yourself losing it commonly.

What is broken in this meta then? How many free switches into already boosted (but not broken) pokemon to change counters at will without wasting turns toward rain. 8 turns goes by much faster than most people seem to think with all the switching that has to happen... maybe 3-4 of those turns are actual attack turns. Many people, based on what pokemon is out, can switch between walls like blissey/skarmory to wall it out/ww their change to make it take longer. (If you see ludicolo, its got a set of pokemon that can easily come on in it and force it out, even using para to stop the next one. Same goes for any of them.) It is also still counterable by other auto-weather... its just not a requirement anymore if it runs out anyway.

 

[Sheaz]

There should be a grand metagame test to decide which people like more: weather or non-weather and then have two seperate metagames. Clearly the weather issue is going nowhere and is just too divisive.

The "test" is the vote. Having two separate metagames just cuts down on the userbase overall and fragments the community. I don't believe this is a good idea at all.

 

[10fore]

@Masterful

I understand how unbalanced you think drizzle is. I just have a question:

If Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops are sent to Ubers, do you actually think drizzle will still be broken?

That's what I'm not getting.

Because, you see:
1. Both sides of this argument feel that rain teams are broken in the current metagame
2. Both sides have proposed solutions by removing aspects of the metagame

I just feel like banning the sweepers will let weaker, not broken sweepers step up to plate, whereas banning drizzle just eliminates a playstyle.

 

[masterful]

@Masterful

I understand how unbalanced you think drizzle is. I just have a question:

If Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops are sent to Ubers, do you actually think drizzle will still be broken?

That's what I'm not getting.

Because, you see:
1. Both sides of this argument feel that rain teams are broken in the current metagame
2. Both sides have proposed solutions by removing aspects of the metagame

I just feel like banning the sweepers will let weaker, not broken sweepers step up to plate, whereas banning drizzle just eliminates a playstyle.

Banning the sweepers kills rain offense, while banning drizzle only does away with maybe rain tall, which was never especially good to begin with. That is why I support it.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

The "test" is the vote. Having two separate metagames just cuts down on the userbase overall and fragments the community. I don't believe this is a good idea at all.

What do you call UU and Ubers? And they would be two COMPLETELY different metagames if one had all weather and one had NO AUTOMATIC weather (no Sandstream, Snowstorm, Drizzle, or Drought).

Weather already cuts down the userbase overall and fragments the community. Hence all the debates, arguments, and shouting over whether Rain is broken (it is and 99% have come to realize this) and what should be done to nerf/destroy it via banning the sweepers, banning Swift Swim, banning Drizzle, etc.

 

[DahliaSky]

@Masterful

I understand how unbalanced you think drizzle is. I just have a question:

If Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops are sent to Ubers, do you actually think drizzle will still be broken?

That's what I'm not getting.

Because, you see:
1. Both sides of this argument feel that rain teams are broken in the current metagame
2. Both sides have proposed solutions by removing aspects of the metagame

I just feel like banning the sweepers will let weaker, not broken sweepers step up to plate, whereas banning drizzle just eliminates a playstyle.

It doesn't eliminate playstyles. Many people used rain dance in gen 4, both whole teams and as a setup move on pokes like kingdra... and many people will still use it in gen 5. The problem is that by themselves none of those three are broken or deserve ubers, even with drizzle around... its the fact that they can switch around for free that is causing over centralization and power issues.

 

[masterful]

What do you call UU and Ubers? And they would be two COMPLETELY different metagames if one had all weather and one had NO AUTOMATIC weather (no Sandstream, Snowstorm, Drizzle, or Drought).

Weather already cuts down the userbase overall and fragments the community. Hence all the debates, arguments, and shouting over whether Rain is broken (it is and 99% have come to realize this) and what should be done to nerf/destroy it via banning the sweepers, banning Swift Swim, banning Drizzle, etc.

What are you even saying? No one wants a stupid weatherless meta. We just want a balanced, fun-to-play meta. (Unless they just hate all weather for some reason)

 

[Sheaz]

What do you call UU and Ubers? And they would be two COMPLETELY different metagames if one had all weather and one had NO AUTOMATIC weather (no Sandstream, Snowstorm, Drizzle, or Drought).

Weather already cuts down the userbase overall and fragments the community. Hence all the debates, arguments, and shouting over whether Rain is broken (it is and 99% have come to realize this) and what should be done to nerf/destroy it via banning the sweepers, banning Swift Swim, banning Drizzle, etc.

Exactly. Think of the number of people who actually play pokemon on simulators. Then think about how they're separated into multiple servers, with with LC, NU, UU, OU, Ubers, and even dreamworld variations. I see no reason to further fragment the player into even smaller groups.

 

[masterful]

Exactly. Think of the number of people who actually play pokemon on simulators. Then think about how they're seperated into multiple serves, with with LC, NU, UU, OU, Ubers, and even dreamworld variations. I see no reason to further fragment the player into even smaller groups.

Because those two groups aren't what everyone wants! We logical people just want a good meta, not stupid weatherless and weather metas

 

[Nanoswine]

I just feel like banning the sweepers will let weaker, not broken sweepers step up to plate, whereas banning drizzle just eliminates a playstyle.

If you ban the broken sweepers, you have 5 Pokemon on your team that are good, most of which rely on Drizzle being up to be usable. And then you have Politoed, who, as an individual Pokemon, is not Standard material. This holds true for any form of play dependent on Drizzle. So why would you use a team with 5 Pokemon that rely on a certain battle condition that isn't constant to be useable plus a weak frog, as opposed to a team of 6 Pokemon that are good under standard battle conditions?

I don't know why I keep posting this, maybe I think it will eventually catch on or something. Which it obviously isn't -__-

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Clearly Drizzle will be banned. This suspect test will ban Drizzle, and I simpply debate because I cannot stand the notion that people consider drizzle viable and balanced. Second, Floatzel does none of those things, and the majority of them can OHKO him

Wrong. Floatzel does do those things.
Jolly Life Orb Waterfall to Terakion: 96.68-114.8 (79.49% ohko without rain/other damage)
Jolly Life Orb Waterfall to Landlos: 100.31-119.12%
Jolly Life Orb Waterfall to max hp Tyranitar: 66.83-79.21% (ohko after Bulk Up)
+1 Jolly Life Orb Waterfall to 353 hp/383 Def Gliscor: 76.49-90.65%
Jolly Life Orb Waterfall to Hippowdon: 48.57-57.14% (possible 2 hit ko and one must watch out for Waterfall flinches. After Bulk Up, definite 2 hit ko)

And after Bulk Up, it takes about 60~% from Balloon Doryuzu while Waterfall ohkoes back.

 

[10fore]

Banning the sweepers kills rain offense, while banning drizzle only does away with maybe rain tall, which was never especially good to begin with. That is why I support it.

Ok.

The next question is, when you still have Golduck, Poliwrath, Quilfish, Huntail, Gorebyss, Relicanth, Floatzel, Armaldo, Tsunbear, Omastar, Gamagerogue, and Seaking is rain offense really dead?

That's where I disagree with you. I feel like banning the sweepers will give the best of both worlds, as there are a shit-ton of lesser rain sweepers waiting in the wings. We can somewhat preserve the rose, while removing the thorns.
(In that metaphor, the rose is the metagame, and the thorns are broken elements.)

EDIT:

So why would you use a team with 5 Pokemon that rely on a certain battle condition that isn't constant to be useable plus a weak frog, as opposed to a team of 6 Pokemon that are good under standard battle conditions?

I dunno what your point is all. Because ludicolo is totally a beast in standard battle conditions. Kabutops too. (sarcasm, because they aren't)

It doesn't eliminate playstyles. Many people used rain dance in gen 4, both whole teams and as a setup move on pokes like kingdra... and many people will still use it in gen 5. The problem is that by themselves none of those three are broken or deserve ubers, even with drizzle around... its the fact that they can switch around for free that is causing over centralization and power issues.

I understand this point. Many people did use rain dance in gen 4, but having to use rain dance means that rain cannot be used for anything but sweeping, or at least, not viably. Gen 5 is even quicker than gen 4, and while the turn to set up 8 turns of rain is acceptable when you've got kingdra waiting in the wings, it lacks the general utility of drizzle. Drizzle does more, and thats why we should keep it.


Keep in mind that I could be wrong. Perhaps all the swift sweepers I posted about earlier are broken too. Then, maybe we should ban drizzle. But banning it now would be irresponsible.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Because those two groups aren't what everyone wants! We logical people just want a good meta, not stupid weatherless and weather metas

It wouldn't have to be weatherless. In fact, it would be more viable than ever to run Rain Dance and Sunny Day without the fear of an auto-weather switching in and ruining the fun.

Although then again...if there were no auto weather and it goes on for 8 turns, it will still be severely destructive...

Well, what we have now is not really a particualarly great metagame with weather.

 

[masterful]

Ok.

The next question is, when you still have Golduck, Poliwrath, Quilfish, Huntail, Gorebyss, Relicanth, Floatzel, Armaldo, Tsunbear, Omastar, Gamagerogue, and Seaking is rain offense really dead?

That's where I disagree with you. I feel like banning the sweepers will give the best of both worlds, as there are a shit-ton of lesser rain sweepers waiting in the wings. We can somewhat preserve the rose, while removing the thorns.
(In that metaphor, the rose is the metagame, and the thorns are broken elements.)

You can list terrible pokemon all day, I won't be convinced