np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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Nominations of what I think should go

Drizzle-No need to explain, there are already way to many pages for and against to need to go further indepth but it breaks a ridiculous number of pokemon, boosts their stab into a double stab and cause things like Ludicolo/Kabutops/Kingdra to seriously be considered broken which they aren't. It makes Manaphy a god and even after banning the "trio" it will still have Belly Drum Swift Swim Poliwrath, Shell Breakers (slightly more difficult to use but isn't impossible, especially with Screen support) in Gorebyss/Huntail/Omastar (Gorebyss/Huntail can also pass), Qwilfish, Floatzel, etc etc etc.

Manaphy-This+Rain=Broken. This in Non-rain=still almost broken just not as much because it can't abuse Hydration-Rest. But with support options like Screens, Acid Armor, etc, this thing can still be incredibly difficult to kill and has +3 Tail Glows as well. It can set up it's own Rain and team and 100 stats across the board is still phenomenal. And if Drizzle is staying (heaven forbid), this can not.

Landlos-High Speed, Unpredictablitly, Insane Power. It is able to be used in any weather and Sand gives it a fairly strong boost. It can Rock Polish/Swords Dance/Bulk Up/Calm Mind and can attack on both sides VERY hard. In Dream World it has Sheer Force/Encourage which allows it to abuse Calm Mind Earth Powers and Focus Blasts with no Life Orb recoil. Rock Polish allows it to outspeed nearly everything (except Floatzel in Rain or Shell Smash Swift Swimmer) and finish off weakened things and with the Sand Power boost easily finish off weakened things. Swords Dance is ridiculous power. It can ohko physical defensive Skarmoy with Stone Edge in Sand and does massive damage to everything. Bulk Up gives surviveability and makes it harder to physically kill and it isn't weak to any common priority attacks (except Ice Shard which rarely ohko anyways except from Mamoswine and after Bulk Up do even worse and Landlos could actually survive Choice Band Mamoswine with some Defense after Bulk Up).

Terakion-Similar to Landlos with High speed and power and semi-unpredictability since it too can abuse Swords Dance/Rock Polish. Can't specially attack but it does heavy damage and Rock Polish allows it to kill the fast things while Swords Dance can allow it to kill the walls. In Sandstorm it gets a special defensive boost which can help allow it to survive some weaker special attacks and is again, really quite fast and strong.

Drought-Might as well since it'll probably become even stronger if Drizzle's gone and has some scary monsters of its own like Ulgamoth, Heatran, Charizard, Venasaur, Victreebel, Shiftry, Mebjuka, etc. The only reason it isn't used as much because it got the short end of the stick in weather inducer.

Latios-Insane speed and special attack and it's Draco Meteors hit like a truck and is still annoying to switch in on since little can survive double Meteors besides a steel or something incredibly special bulky and I mean incredible (who rarely have things like Slack off).

Honorable Mentions-Mew, Doryuzu, Deoxys-D, Ulgamoth (eh why not?)
 
Fluffy Otters said:
Nominations of what I think should go

Manaphy-This+Rain=Broken. This in Non-rain=still almost broken just not as much because it can't abuse Hydration-Rest.

Drought-Might as well since it'll probably become even stronger if Drizzle's gone

Honorable Mentions-Ulgamoth (eh why not?)
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Time out. I'm sorry, but you have a terrible mindset IMO. I've outlined some of the biggest issues.

Manaphy- "this in non-rain = still almost broken". It doesn't matter if it's close to being broken or far. If it's not broken, then it doesn't really deserve a ban. And since you nominated Drizzle, then you believe that rain shouldn't be around. Which means that you want to ban it believing that it should only be "still almost broken". I'll repeat myself for simplicity. If it's not broken, don't ban it.

Drought- "might as well". WTF? We might as well ban Abomasnow, since we're getting rid of other weathers. We might as well ban Salamence since we're worried about other sweepers. Come on. And even if you hadn't said that, your sentence would still have issues. "it'll probably become stronger". Let's ban Latias since it will probably have move tutor attacks in the third game. Seriously, you can't predict what will happen, and you can't ban based on those predictions. Use your head.

Ulgamoth- "eh why not?". Eh, why not ban Nattorei? Eh, why not ban Heatran? This attitude must die here, because it is simply atrocious. I can't even say more about it.

Fluffy Otters, you've never seemed foolish before (at least, from what I've seen). Why are you suddenly posting such outlandish things?
 
It's as if he's mocking people who supposedly want to ban "everything" that makes low tier mons viable in OU....what with the "eh,why not?" and "Might as well".
>.>
 
SlimMan said:
Time out. I'm sorry, but you have a terrible mindset IMO. I've outlined some of the biggest issues.

Manaphy- "this in non-rain = still almost broken". It doesn't matter if it's close to being broken or far. If it's not broken, then it doesn't really deserve a ban. And since you nominated Drizzle, then you believe that rain shouldn't be around. Which means that you want to ban it believing that it should only be "still almost broken". I'll repeat myself for simplicity. If it's not broken, don't ban it.

Drought- "might as well". WTF? We might as well ban Abomasnow, since we're getting rid of other weathers. We might as well ban Salamence since we're worried about other sweepers. Come on. And even if you hadn't said that, your sentence would still have issues. "it'll probably become stronger". Let's ban Latias since it will probably have move tutor attacks in the third game. Seriously, you can't predict what will happen, and you can't ban based on those predictions. Use your head.

Ulgamoth- "eh why not?". Eh, why not ban Nattorei? Eh, why not ban Heatran? This attitude must die here, because it is simply atrocious. I can't even say more about it.

Fluffy Otters, you've never seemed foolish before (at least, from what I've seen). Why are you suddenly posting such outlandish things?
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Ulgamoth was a kind of joke. But Mew might deserve consideration because of support sets and bulk (but then again I don't want it to go because it is so much fun). However, Manaphy is likely broken with or without Drizzle. I don't see why nominating it to be considered is an issue then. It definitely is in rain certainly. It can set up it's own Rain without permanent rain and is fairly bulky and Manaphy itself just doesn't die.

Drought is as strong as Drizzle, just not so because of Drizzle and having a weaker inducer (imagine Drought on Heatran...wait that would be broken). And people nominating Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo will probably nominate Victreebell/Shiftry/Venasaur etc broken as well. Venasaur is Sun's Kingdra except even bulkier, able to switch moves, and bash the heck out of you with a dual Nasty Plot/Swords Dance. While I don't know if Drought will suddenly take Rain's place, I don't see why it wouldn't make a grand attempt at doing so if Drizzle is banned and Venasaur suddenly becomes crazy and become "uber".
 
Fluffy Otters said:
Ulgamoth was a kind of joke. But Mew might deserve consideration because of support sets and bulk (but then again I don't want it to go because it is so much fun). However, Manaphy is likely broken with or without Drizzle. I don't see why nominating it to be considered is an issue then. It definitely is in rain certainly. It can set up it's own Rain without permanent rain and is fairly bulky and Manaphy itself just doesn't die.

Drought is as strong as Drizzle, just not so because of Drizzle and having a weaker inducer (imagine Drought on Heatran...wait that would be broken). And people nominating Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo will probably nominate Victreebell/Shiftry/Venasaur etc broken as well. Venasaur is Sun's Kingdra except even bulkier, able to switch moves, and bash the heck out of you with a dual Nasty Plot/Swords Dance. While I don't know if Drought will suddenly take Rain's place, I don't see why it wouldn't make a grand attempt at doing so if Drizzle is banned and Venasaur suddenly becomes crazy and become "uber".
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Except Sun doesn't have 3 super sweepers. Venusaur is great,but has coverage issues.
It only has enough room for 3 moves because it needs Growth.
Unlike Water/Dragon,Grass/Poison aren't great offensive STABs. They also don't get boosted in the sun.
The mons who DO get boosted STABs,just get boosted STABs. They don't get faster,bulkier,or anything.

Drought will never be broken. Too many things wall its sweepers.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
Except Sun doesn't have 3 super sweepers. Venusaur is great,but has coverage issues.
It only has enough room for 3 moves because it needs Growth.
Unlike Water/Dragon,Grass/Poison aren't great offensive STABs. They also don't get boosted in the sun.
The mons who DO get boosted STABs,just get boosted STABs. They don't get faster,bulkier,or anything.

Drought will never be broken. Too many things wall its sweepers.
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What walls Growth Venasaur with Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Hp Fire besides that (blasted) Heatran? After +2, Dragons everywhere die to Sludge Bomb except maybe Dragonite with a Multi-Scale at full health. Venasaur also can switch it's moves. And you can follow it rain style with Shiftry and Mebjuka or something. Other than the stab thing (thank you Game Freak for not aligning double stab and Chlorophyll together that is so helpful, not) I don't see many things wrong with Sun. Other than Heatran, I don't see much that "walls" Sun. If anything, it's harder to wall than Rain because of that.
 
Fluffy Otters said:
What walls Growth Venasaur with Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Hp Fire besides that (blasted) Heatran? After +2, Dragons everywhere die to Sludge Bomb except maybe Dragonite with a Multi-Scale at full health. Venasaur also can switch it's moves. And you can follow it rain style with Shiftry and Mebjuka or something. Other than the stab thing (thank you Game Freak for not aligning double stab and Chlorophyll together that is so helpful, not) I don't see many things wrong with Sun. Other than Heatran, I don't see much that "walls" Sun. If anything, it's harder to wall than Rain because of that.
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And anything Venusaur can't OHKO will probably kill him due to a boosted weakness >.>
Aside from Venusaur,Drought doesn't have such potent sweepers.
 
SlimMan said:
Why ban Inconsistent? It only broke Octillery and Bibarel. And after all, 2/649 is an incredibly small number.

The reason is because it was broken. It doesn't matter how many things it breaks. We simply shouldn't have a metagame rife with broken things.
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Inconsistent is broken by itself.
All pokemon mentioned for Drizzle being broken are pokemon with an ability that explicitly is based on rain. It's hardly Drizzle being broken, it's abilities triggering off of Drizzle and then the Pokemon with those abilities having the stats to push it overboard.
There hasn't been a single pokemon without an ability that activates off of rain said to be broken as a result of rain. Even then numerous pokemon with the abilities that activate in rain aren't broken. Your going to use Inconsistent something that will break basically any pokemon it's on except for what Shedinja regardless of whether they use protect & substitute or not, to an ability that hasn't been shown to break anything without specific abilities, and many with those specific abilities are not broken.

You have an ability that's only been shown to be broken in explicit situations, those situations being on specific pokemon like Kabutops & Kingdra, and those pokemon then need to have a specific ability. Other pokemon with the water typing, with specific abilities in drizzle are not broken. Drizzle isn't broken, there are broken pokemon in Drizzle to say otherwise is just being silly.
 
You guys can go ahead and say Drought sucks now (and it does), but when Drizzle and Sandstorm are gone, have fun walling Specs HP Fire Latios, hellishly fast sweepers that all can fire off a Sleep Powder if they come across something they can't OHKO, and Urugamosu OHKOing everything after only 1 BD. The only reason nobody uses Drought is because it is difficult to keep it up against Rain and SS teams.
 
Who do I blame for leaving Manaphy in OU? I was hoping it was a joke like when it had 2 days in gen 4 but its still here. You have to run stuff like Specs Sceptile, Voltolos, Jolteon etc. to have a chance at killing it and even then it might not happen after a Calm Mind. +3 Tail Glow is ridicolous too. Nattorei is the closest thing to handle that and still gets 2hkoed and everything in the category of the first 3 "checks" I listed can just be OHKOed on the switch.

I run stall for the 5th gen and I had to stop laddering with it very quickly because of all the Manaphy that just shut me down. My team has proven weatherproof against Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops but im hopeless against Manaphy and theres no way for me to deal with it. All of them can be very tough to deal with but the standard sets (bar Kabutops) are very simple to directly counter and Quagsire or Mach Punch can deal with that.

Drizzle should not be banned even if the "broken trio" is deemed to truly be broken. It makes many otherwise below average pokemon like Parasect and Blastoise viable in OU, gives defensive benefits to pokemon like Rain Dish Tentacruel/Hydration Vaporeon/Nattorei and powers up some sweepers like Gyarados and Feraligator by powering up their stab. Those are some of the examples of the way Drizzle can be fun to use, counterable, and lead to a more diverse metagame.

So how do we decide if something deserves to be banned? If its impossible to even keep it in check like Sub/SD Garchomp was in Gen 4 then swing your banhammer. Manaphy is obviously in that category and I hope it doesn't need any more explanation.

Kingdra- Kingdra's specially based sets in the rain are walled effortlessly by Burungeru, Milotic, Vaporeon, Celebi, Blissey etc. The DD sets arent as powerful but can hurt the other counters a bit. However, Nattorei doesnt have a problem at all in the rain. Quagsire doesn't either. Because its so much less powerful and has to resort to Outrage every time it faces a water resist its very vulnerable to being set up on/phazed out by Steel types.

Ludicolo- Walled unconditionally by Tentacruel. Special sets dont break through Blissey/Chansey and it has to deal with Paralysis from the really bulky walls like Cresselia(I know i know) and Porygon2. Powerful but possible to deal with. Scarfed base 110s and over will always outrun it unless it had a Shell Break baton passed to it.

Kabutops- Porygon2 can directly counter it. It also takes a ton from common priority moves like Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave and Bullet Punch. No matter how many attack boosts it has it will never break through Quagsire. Unless its Jolly, Scarfed Lati@s, Infernape, Terakion etc. Scarfed base 108s can outrun it.

Notice- Not once did I say "use your own weather inducer" that on its own makes checking these pokemon easier.

The only pokemon who I truly believe to be Uber right now is Manaphy. I could do this process for any other suspects. I hope this helps and Manaphy gets banned so I can play again.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
And anything Venusaur can't OHKO will probably kill him due to a boosted weakness >.>
Aside from Venusaur,Drought doesn't have such potent sweepers.
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So what you're saying first is that anything Venusaur can't OHKO will kill him with a fire move. If you weren't saying that, you heavily implied it. And by implied it, I mean you said it. Do you think everything that is bulky enough to survive a +2 Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain / Earthquake or HP Fire (emphasis on the or since I'm damn well sure of what you'd do if I didn't emphasize it) has a fire move? One thing that I dislike about people who play down Sun teams is that they act like a boosted weakness kills your team. It really doesn't ... most Fire Pokemon don't have the chance to hit you!

But moving on here, what can't a Venusaur OHKO anyway after +2/+2? Using a Mild LO, 252/252 Venu with Sludge Bomb / Earthquake / Giga Drain (my personal favorite, although sometimes I run one with HP Fire / Timid), the following are OHKOd with standard spreads: Gliscor, Celebi, Vaporeon, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Roobushin, Burungeru ... I think you get the picture. I realize some are SE hits, and I realize Tyranitar would change the weather, but I think you can understand that this thing can KO some of the bulkier things in the meta! Run HP Fire if you want, you'll nab Nattorei / Skarm too! I'm thinking that the following aren't OHKOd ... Nattorei, MS Dragonite, Balloon Heatran, Skarmory ... seems like a good, short list of Pokemon. I'm sure there are a few more though.

Shiftry does the same thing as Venu, except with Giga Drain / Dark Pulse / Low Kick. Hell, it doesn't have problems with any Steels. Don't forget about Blaziken either. STABS + SD. Sun is nice, as it boosts Flare Blitz (or Blaze Kick or Fire Punch, but Flare Blitz :pimp:), but it doesn't need the Sun. It forces something out and it's suddenly +2 / +1. It can run protect in the third slot for +2 / +2 easy. It can run a coverage move in the last slot. I've had success with both. There are three right there. Blaziken can still go to work even without an SD simply because of it's great attacking stats. You can run a pure special one if you want. You wanna weaken shit for your Venusaur? Run a Victrebell. It'll be fun to get crits with Leaf Blade :P

To go on a little more, a Sun Team doesn't function like a rain team. You'd think you'd pile on a bunch of Chlorophyll abusers or some shit, but you don't. You have one, maybe two. Here's why: Overlapping weaknesses. If your sun is gone you've got a pile of shit to play with, probably. The rest of your team can address your weaknesses and help you deal with opposing weather. SJCrew taught me most of this, and through reading his posts and using what he's mentioned, I've had success (1300 usually, don't expect me to get higher cos I'm not a god at pokemon or anything, not like these other good players), but I've also had failures. Do those failures come from Rain? Of course they do. But I've also beaten good rain. I sometimes even lose to non-weather teams. Just goes to show I'm not a great player, but I think sun in the hands of a great player would go to great heights. I think SJCrew was top of the ladder at one point with a Sun team; he's pretty good afaik, and he used it really well.

So to conclude on addressing your two points: Not everything Venu can't OHKO (which is little) carries a Fire Move and Venu has a team to back him up. Also Sun has many potent sweepers ... maybe not the 8-10 rain has, but they are on par with the top 6 (outside manaphy) that rain has in my opinion. I think if you try out Sun for yourself you'll find it a quite viable weather on par with Rain.

-----

And to go off on a side-note quickly, I really do like this weather metagame. I'd make the relation to chess: You have a King (weather inducer), and it is the key to you winning. You lose it, and you lose the game (in theory, of course). You have to protect it, whether this means going on the offense to prevent something from getting to your king or defending so that your king doesn't get hit. I can see where the analogy fails, and that's why I mean it not as a full analogy, but as a half one. Of course you don't automatically lose when you lose your weather inducer, and of course you don't use your King for offense or defense in Chess. What I mean is that you have to play strategically in order to save your most valued piece while still working to wear down the opposing team and executing your own strategy.

I don't mean for this to be like 'dohoho weather-meta is better than non-meta weather' because I don't know what a non-weather meta is like. I'm just saying I like the meta where it's at. Maybe a riddance of Manaphy would be nice, but I don't really have a problem with Gen V being the weather generation. In fact, as long as we balance out the power within the weather without jumping off the deep end, I think it'll be an enjoyable metagame.

Of course, none of what I say really matters since 1) I'm not good enough to ladder to meet voting reqs, and 2) no one even gives a shit about this thread or who the fuck I am, but I really do like this meta and I hope we don't ban all weathers (not implying that i think one weather ban will lead to another!!!!)

Damn this post went longer than I wanted...I hope I don't get tangled into some post-quoting, page-expanding shit >__< Also I think I started out with a little bit of a hostile tone but I tried to eliminate it! Don't mean to sound aggressive... :(
 
Aside from Venusaur,Drought doesn't have such potent sweepers.
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Despite not being a chlorophyll pokemon, blaziken should be mentioned with speed boost. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is walling blaziken under the sun after a sword's dance. Bold Max/Max Cress is ohko'd by Flare Blitz. Salamence? Same thing. How do you not lose to Blaziken under the sun? Force it to use flare blitz against a healthy pokemon (sacrifice something that doesn't have low hp).

Growth Shiftry has an unfortunate mach punch weakness. Growth Victreebel is just plain flimsy. Still powerful though.
 
RedMeowth said:
I haven't really been playing lately, but here's an idea. Below, I'll list 20 Pokemon that can benefit from rain. People can then just point out which of these guys are actually broken in rain. Not just helped, but "broken".

Manaphy, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Floatzel, Qwilfish, Gorebyss, Omastar, Poliwrath, Vaporeon, Toxicroak, Nattorei, Scizor, Starmie, Gyarados, Empoleon, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Cloyster, Suicune

Maybe that'll get people somewhere.
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Not really a great list, since many of them don't benefit from rain that much. Of those who do benefit alot:

Kingdra-Overcentralizing/broken
Ludicolo-"
Kabutops- maybe broken
Omastar- very good, maybe borderline
Gorebyss- very good, maybe borderline (But not so much as a beneficiary of rain, but because it can pass shell smash)
Qwilfish-good, nowhere near broken
Toxicroak-good, nowhere near broken
Nattorei- I could see it being broken for support but I don't think so
Poliwrath- too frail if you're belly drumming, too weak if you're not to be any better than decent.
Rotom- good but nowhere near broken.
 
Arc Tech said:
Not really a great list, since many of them don't benefit from rain that much. Of those who do benefit alot:

Kingdra-Overcentralizing/broken
Ludicolo-"
Kabutops- maybe broken
Omastar- very good, maybe borderline
Gorebyss- very good, maybe borderline (But not so much as a beneficiary of rain, but because it can pass shell smash)
Qwilfish-good, nowhere near broken
Toxicroak-good, nowhere near broken
Nattorei- I could see it being broken for support but I don't think so
Poliwrath- too frail if you're belly drumming, too weak if you're not to be any better than decent.
Rotom- good but nowhere near broken.
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Theres also Floatzel and Abarogua, Relicanth who can still Head smash with life orb & Huntail.
we want to mention some more pokemon just for the hell of it

Special Dragonite.
Hydro pumping Salamence lolz.
Surf Latios.
Parasect
Specs Turoneruso
among a much greater list of pokemon.


Why is it that when it comes to sand the majority who thinks sand is broken will list what maybe 2 pokemon, and say "okay thats cool".
Now people state the have an issue with 4 pokemon in rain (well a fair amount do).

Why is an extra 2 pokemon in rain, if you feel rain is broken so much worse then banning 2 less in sand (if you feel that way.)


Though I must say Omastar's nasty.
Rain has few special sweepers and none of their typing's are as good as Kingdra's.


If Kingdra & Ludi left the rain sweepers available are Oma,Gorebyss,Huntail (lol),Golduck unless you want to play with base 85's but then you still have to consider movesets & the loss of power, as well as the loss of the typings those two brought. Sure you could pack another physical Swift swim sweeper but they're all weaker then Kabutops physically and easier to counter.
 
ensoriki said:
Theres also Floatzel and Abarogua, Relicanth who can still Head smash with life orb & Huntail.
we want to mention some more pokemon just for the hell of it

Special Dragonite.
Hydro pumping Salamence lolz.
Surf Latios.
Parasect
Specs Turoneruso
among a much greater list of pokemon.


Why is it that when it comes to sand the majority who thinks sand is broken will list what maybe 2 pokemon, and say "okay thats cool".
Now people state the have an issue with 4 pokemon in rain (well a fair amount do).

Why is an extra 2 pokemon in rain, if you feel rain is broken so much worse then banning 2 less in sand (if you feel that way.)


Though I must say Omastar's nasty.
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Huntail's just an inferior/copy of gorebyss. Floatzel's mediocre at best. None of those pokemon really derive significant advantage from rain, and none are near broken. And before you say latios, if it's raining it can't use hp fire to kill nattorei, which is a nerf in my book, especially since the main poke it wants water bonus on is ttar, who nullifies it.
 
That's the point though. Outside of a few pokemon, a lot of rain pokemon fall in place just fine. If we're going to prejudice the whole weather for what 3 or 4 pokemon we're blowing things out of proportion.
Omastar & Gorebyss are definitely something to look out for since they have they're niche's and are the strongest special sweepers in terms of base stats. I still don't see why we need to blow the whole infinite rain out of condition for some buggers who are too much when the rest of rain everything falls in line quite nicely, special dragonite is also quite sexy.
 
ensoriki said:
That's the point though. Outside of a few pokemon, a lot of rain pokemon fall in place just fine. If we're going to prejudice the whole weather for what 3 or 4 pokemon we're blowing things out of proportion.
Omastar & Gorebyss are definitely something to look out for since they have they're niche's and are the strongest special sweepers in terms of base stats. I still don't see why we need to blow the whole infinite rain out of condition for some buggers who are too much when the rest of rain everything falls in line quite nicely, special dragonite is also quite sexy.
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While they are the strongest sweepers in terms of stats, they are not when it comes to coverage. The reason Kingdra and Ludicolo dominate are their superior coverage (Kingdra's neutral-hitting dragon stab, high speed as a bonus), Ludicolo hitting SE on bulky waters, and Kabutop's strong rock stab, hitting water and grass neutrally.
 
Arc Tech said:
Huntail's just an inferior/copy of gorebyss. Floatzel's mediocre at best. None of those pokemon really derive significant advantage from rain, and none are near broken. And before you say latios, if it's raining it can't use hp fire to kill nattorei, which is a nerf in my book, especially since the main poke it wants water bonus on is ttar, who nullifies it.
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I disagree with Huntail being a copy of Gorebyss and Floatzel being mediocre. Huntail is either a physical or mixed attacker (and/or passer) while Gorebyss is always special or a special pass. After Shell Smash Waterfall can 2 hit ko Max hp/min Nattorei and you could seriously get a lucky Waterfall flinch which means Nattorei's a dead man. Not great to rely on luck but it happens more often than not (thank you flinch mechanics) for some reason on really fast things. Also it can actually pound through Burungeru after Shell Smash with Crunch and Return allows it to hit water/grassers/Tentacruel etc.

Floatzel's defenses are mediocre. But it's offenses are not and being able to outspeed Rock Polish Landlos and Terakion in rain and kill them is pretty awesome (on what earth Terakion managed to get Rock Polish in rain is beyond me or Landlos but maybe you sacrifice Politoad if they're on their last or second to last Pokemon?). Also, there is are numerous things Floatzel can kill. Garchomp, Landlos, Terakion, Burungeru, Latias/Latios, Gliscor, Tyranitar, etc is pretty cool. And after Bulk Up, it's defense isn't so bad and isn't keeling over to priority at any moment. And there is only so many priority pokemon I mean really. Bulk Up is what really allows it to pound through Burungeru with Crunch and defensive Tyranitar and after one takes about half from Breloom Mach Punch. Plus it can Baton Pass Bulk Up if you want as well.
 
alphatron said:
Despite not being a chlorophyll pokemon, blaziken should be mentioned with speed boost. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is walling blaziken under the sun after a sword's dance. Bold Max/Max Cress is ohko'd by Flare Blitz. Salamence? Same thing. How do you not lose to Blaziken under the sun? Force it to use flare blitz against a healthy pokemon (sacrifice something that doesn't have low hp).
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People really underestimate how powerful Blaziken is. I run it on a non-sun team with Blaze Kick and Shadow Claw, and even then the only times I'm likely to lose once I get SD up is if I miss or they have a strong priority user.
 
I'm surprised Blaziken isn't used more. And what the hell that it can ohko Vaporeon (after Stealth Rock) and Burungeru with +2 Flare Blitz in Sun? Owch massive hp recoil though. But still that is ridiculous. Burungeru is NOT a Blaziken counter (+2 Shadow Claw also kills for those suckers who try to switch Burungeru in on Blaziken). I'm honestly not sure what can actually stop Blaziken other than Scarved or Weather pokemon and if it grabs +2, Blaziken is going to be tearing through you. What caused Blaziken (who used to be overhyped and for good reason) to disappear?

And heh, the simulator allows Speed Boost Baton Pass, despite questionable legality.
 
Fluffy Otters said:
Burungeru is NOT a Blaziken counter (+2 Shadow Claw also kills for those suckers who try to switch Burungeru in on Blaziken).
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This is the best part. When I see Burungeru in Team Preview, I'll usually lead with Blaziken, because they'll inevitably switch it in on the SD and give me at least one free kill.
 
Yeah blaziken is a major problem if it gets up a sd. However, with it's low base speed it can't come in on any sweepers (as revenge) and force them out, so it has to come in on walls... who often carry phaze or status moves which it detests. Natty and Blissey may seem like free SDs... but one twave and your blaziken sweep is over. I'm going to have to try out blaziken. I haven't had major problems with it since I play offensively and keep up pressure when there's a blaziken involved (and most of the other times as well), and I run a lot of priority.
 
Unless they have Dragonite or Scarved Latios or something, I think you'll get more than one since you'll have +2 at that point and +2 Atk/Spd could be the end of it. Swords Dance/Hi Jump Kick/Shadow Claw/Stone Edge or Baton Pass (Baton Pass can be done on the server, I've seen it) or Flare Blitz/Blaze Kick is devestating.

Why...would Nattorei EVER stay in on Blaziken? If they don't Swords Dance and decide to toast you instead, you just lost Nattorei. And most walls use Will-o-wisp (immunity) and Toxic (Blaziken is still going to take out a number of Pokemon before Toxic kill it).
 
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