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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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We do not ban moves from specific Pokemon. Ever.
You're correct sxof, but I've seen those few only very rarely on an offensive Sand team, while Sharpedo scores OHKOs on basically everything else. Of course Scizor and Roobushin will be a pain, but they can be worked around.
If that doesn't work we could just strip these threats of their Dragon typing. Lati@s would be a pure Psychic type, Dragonite a pure Flying, ect.
Surely this will balance these pokemon so that they can remain in OU.
Also is it me or are these boosts granted by Drizzle a bit too much? I propose that we ban the combination of Drizzle + Water-type moves / Thunder / Hurricane / Weather Ball / Dry Skin / Forecast / Hydration / Rain Dish / Bug-type Pokemon / Steel-type Pokemon / Grass-type Pokemon on the same team.
A while back the same argument would be made about ability+ability combos, but things change. Banning DM+Latios combo would definately balance it out, as ridiculous as this may sound. Also, Victini will get an overpowered move in the 3rd BW game, so we may be forced to make such a ban regardless.
Hihidaruma's Flare Blitz is more powerful than Victini's V-Generate, so the move isn't going to be overpowered. Also, if the move is overpowered, then the move itself should be banned, not the pokemon+Move combo. If it's not overpowering on every pokemon with the move, then the move can't be overpowered; it's just the pokemon.
Ability+ability combinations are not dependent on specific Pokemon. The same would go for a hypothetical V-Generate ban if it were to become necessary, which it won't. It would only matter for Victini, but all Pokemon would be subject to the ban.
Furthermore, things have not changed. There is, as there always was, no precedent for banning ability+ability combinations.
Could anything else be considered an "exception" like Drizzle and the other perma-weather abilities are by Aldaron's proposal?
And I don't know about you, but I'm looking at this ban more as a test. If Drizzle proves to be not broken next round (or couple rounds, whatever), you can bet I'll nominate Drizzle+Swift Swim to be brought back and huh Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/whatever to get the boot.
But of course, we need to test non-SS Drizzle first...
And I don't know about you, but I'm looking at this ban more as a test. If Drizzle proves to be not broken next round (or couple rounds, whatever), you can bet I'll nominate Drizzle+Swift Swim to be brought back and huh Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/whatever to get the boot.
But of course, we need to test non-SS Drizzle first...
Hihi doesn't have fighting/psychic type resistances or Celebi-like bulk though, meaning less safe switch-in opportunities to abuse the attack, and a reduction in (special) defense and speed is arguably not as bad as recoil damage in a hit-and-run (choiced) set.
Smeargle isn't broken with V-generate, so if Victini's proved to be, the poke+move combo should be banned, not the move itself.
Btw, this is just an "if" situation to support that it's possible to have a move+poke combo ban in the future, i'm not arguing Victini will be overpowered.
Smeargle isn't broken with V-generate, so if Victini's proved to be, the poke+move combo should be banned, not the move itself.
Btw, this is just an "if" situation to support that it's possible to have a move+poke combo ban in the future, i'm not arguing Victini will be overpowered.
Frankly, I'd rather have poor, poor Smeargle being prohibited of using V-Generate than having us trying to ban move+pokémon combos and getting in yet another endless semantics debate... Aldaron's proposal was accepted more or less because it's thought not to set any precedent to complex bans (as the perma-weather abilities are "another league").
If the move isn't broken on Smeargle, but Victini is broken with it, then Victini should be banned, not the move+pokemon combo. The move must be overpowering on every pokemon with it for it to be overpowered. If it's not the move, it's the pokemon. You said yourself the reasons why Victini's V-Generate, while less powerful than Hihi's Flare Blitz, is still better in some situations: because of the merits of the pokemon itself.
Cause: Victini proved the first two suspect rounds it isn't broken without V-generate.
Effect: Victini isn't banned.
Cause: Victini is proved to be broken with V-generate, while Smeargle isn't.
Effect: 1. Ban Victini for the sake of simplicity, ignoring the fact that the pokemon isn't broken without V-generate
2. Ban V-generate for the sake of simplicity, ignoring the fact that Smeargle isn't broken with this move
3. Ban the combination of Victini+V-generate, ignoring simplicity.
A similar thought proccess probably led to Aldaron's proposal. Each person would choose something different, but the majority would most likely decide the more logical option, seeing as at times complexity is unavoidable.
And btw, Smeargle can have a perfectly viable Belly Drum set with V-generate and Extremespeed in UU.
Effect: Victini isn't banned.
Cause: Victini is proved to be broken with V-generate, while Smeargle isn't.
Effect: 1. Ban Victini for the sake of simplicity, ignoring the fact that the pokemon isn't broken without V-generate
2. Ban V-generate for the sake of simplicity, ignoring the fact that Smeargle isn't broken with this move
3. Ban the combination of Victini+V-generate, ignoring simplicity.
A similar thought proccess probably led to Aldaron's proposal. Each person would choose something different, but the majority would most likely decide the more logical option, seeing as at times complexity is unavoidable.
And btw, Smeargle can have a perfectly viable Belly Drum set with V-generate and Extremespeed in UU.
Neither Victini nor V-Generate come even close to the impact Drizzle and the other perma-weather abilities have on the metagame, so it's not like his proposal.
And by your logic, we should have banned Outrage+Salamence because it only got the move in Platinum. Yeah no.
And by your logic, we should have banned Outrage+Salamence because it only got the move in Platinum. Yeah no.
Viable=/=overpowering, which is the issue at hand.sxof said:
You don't know the effect V-generate will have when released. I repeat, this is an "if" situation, and "if" Victini+V-generate have the same impact Drizzle+SS did, it would be more "fair", albeit complex, to ban the combo rather than the move/pokemon, meaning that there is a chance the community will opt for it, which brings me to my main argument, it's possible that a move+pokemon combo ban might happen in the future.
And allow me to doubt Outrage was the reason Salamence was banned.
@cosmicexplorer: i know
And allow me to doubt Outrage was the reason Salamence was banned.
@cosmicexplorer: i know
After testing with V-Generate victini on PO, it is definately not broken. It is just a extremely powerful STAB move with a little downside. That is it.
Because most Dorry are Jolly, and you really want Sharpedo to be Adamant, from my experience at least.
It doesn't matter whether V-generate Victini is broken or not. I'm focusing on an "if" situation, where it's proven to be overpowered, while Smeargle isn't. This would logically lead us to the conclusion that the community would rather have the poke+move combo banned than each one seperately. This whole argument began with me supporting that it's possible for the PR members (since the rest apparently have no say in the matter) to ban DM+Latios combo to balance the pokemon out. This is the issue we have at hand, and it's definately overpowering and overcentralizing. There is but a handful of safe switch-ins to a specs boosted DM from that sAtk, and this is a cause constituting to Uber status. The effect could be to either ban Latios or the combination of Latios and Draco Meteor. Both would make a healthier OU metagame, it's just that Latios would stay in the tier if we opted for the latter.
This is where your argument falls apart.
There is nothing to support this, and it only goes against all of Smogon's policy - policy which the community, especially PR, has repeatedly expressed an interest in maintaining.
Philip7086 in the Nomination Thread said:
@sxof,
Why would the same thing not apply to a move + Pokemon combo?
Can we ban Surf on Manaphy? That might make it OU.
Can we ban Seed Flare on Skymin? That might make it OU.
Can we ban Dark Void on Darkrai? That might make it OU.
Actually, why even have an Uber tier? Why not just cut every pokemon's movepool enough that they become OU? Is there even a point in having Ubers? /sarcasm
srsly sxof?
Ew Manaphy banned and Swiftswimmers banned on Rain teams!
Did anybody ever think that manaphy might not be broken if there were no swiftswimmers on the same team? I only supported Aldaron's proposal under the assumption that Manaphy wouldn't be banned! I demand manaphy be retested with the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban.
Did anybody ever think that manaphy might not be broken if there were no swiftswimmers on the same team? I only supported Aldaron's proposal under the assumption that Manaphy wouldn't be banned! I demand manaphy be retested with the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban.
It seemed to me that banning the combo of Drizzle+SS on the same team also went against the policy followed by Smogon in the previous generations. Although there was no official rule regarding simplicity, PR always decided on the less convoluted solution. Taking action against a specific aspect of the metagame (the Drizzle+SS ban) was a step towards a shift in policy, less hostile to complexity. In short, a complicated ban of a specific aspect of the metagame no longer goes against Smogon's philosophy.
"Latios breaks OU"
This is my opinion. I think Latios's choice specs set is too much for standard play and a ban in this case would make the metagame healthier. Apparently 60% of players qualified to vote last round didn't agree with me, but i'm confident this is only because every single one of them had a dedicated counter in their team (Nattorei, Tyranitar, or both). Players who don't want to use sandstorm and defensive pokes must face the fact that their teams are Latios weak, and they'll have to lose a poke to boosted DM each time it switches in against something slower. If Latios didn't have DM though, it would be perfectly manageable; its choiced sets would be much less powerful, and it would have many more checks to limit its rampage (even Togekiss can check it without DM). By banning Latios, we make the metagame healthier. By banning the Latios+DM combo, we make the metagame healthier AND keep a much-needed check to Virizion and Garchomp around.
You need to realize that i am not against Latios being banned. Quite the opposite actually. This is merely a proposal to counter the main argument for him remaining in standard, that he's necessary to hold back some specific threats. I just want to portray this as a possible solution.
@SlimMan: ridiculing a suggestion is easy, but you haven't disproved me. Banning Manaphy+Surf combo wouldn't help the metagame, while banning Latios+DM would balance OU and keep another check to major threats around.
@Erazor: so a pokemon "raping" two viable playstyles isn't broken?
"Latios breaks OU"
This is my opinion. I think Latios's choice specs set is too much for standard play and a ban in this case would make the metagame healthier. Apparently 60% of players qualified to vote last round didn't agree with me, but i'm confident this is only because every single one of them had a dedicated counter in their team (Nattorei, Tyranitar, or both). Players who don't want to use sandstorm and defensive pokes must face the fact that their teams are Latios weak, and they'll have to lose a poke to boosted DM each time it switches in against something slower. If Latios didn't have DM though, it would be perfectly manageable; its choiced sets would be much less powerful, and it would have many more checks to limit its rampage (even Togekiss can check it without DM). By banning Latios, we make the metagame healthier. By banning the Latios+DM combo, we make the metagame healthier AND keep a much-needed check to Virizion and Garchomp around.
You need to realize that i am not against Latios being banned. Quite the opposite actually. This is merely a proposal to counter the main argument for him remaining in standard, that he's necessary to hold back some specific threats. I just want to portray this as a possible solution.
@SlimMan: ridiculing a suggestion is easy, but you haven't disproved me. Banning Manaphy+Surf combo wouldn't help the metagame, while banning Latios+DM would balance OU and keep another check to major threats around.
@Erazor: so a pokemon "raping" two viable playstyles isn't broken?
Forget about sucker punch. Payback is probably better (assuming he stays in). Anyways, you would protect the first turn for leftovers recovery, and then start toxic/wish stalling on the second. Due to the special defense drop from the first attack and 1 turn of leftovers recovery, I doubt that latios can get the 2HKO.
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