np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[reachzero]

Evasion and OHKO moves are complicated subjects that have already been discussed in depth, and let's be honest: nothing is going to be done to test these, if ever, until after the Standard metagame has had time to settle in. No one will want to have to deal with OHKO moves while we're still figuring out what to do with Randorosu, etc. What ever happened to actually talking about the metagame?

 

[NC]

That is so dumb. It really is. Here you go. Here's a super-complex strategy for you. 1 Set up stealth rock.
2. Bring in Scarf Sheer Cold Articuno
3.Most likely take out at least one enemy poke.
That was really skillful, right?

And you were saying my arguments were fallacious?

Anyway, it seems as though the consensus taken taken a complete reversal from yesterday (showing the inconsistency in logic) and saying that although they may not be broken, they are undesirable. Since when is that a reason to ban something? I do not see much that is desirable about brightpowder or sand veil (actually I personally do, they are a pseudo defensive boost, but using opponent's logic...) yet they are still allowed. I have no desire to face a cosmic power deoxys-d, but that doesn't mean I should campaign to have it banned.

Also,

OHKO moves are a not a strategy, they're brainless elements of luck that KO a Pokemon on a whim.

"Oh no! Noob405 clicked Sheer Cold and I just lost a Pokemon for no reason!"

This is not inductive to competitive Pokemon.

Yes, you did lose it for a reason. Noob405 decided to take a major risk with the likely result of accomplishing nothing, and at that one specific time, the risk paid off. What would be more "luck-based" would be a critical hit killing your only counter to something, as there is no risk involved with that for Noob405.
Again, they are absolutely not brainless. Maybe for unskilled players they are. But if you can't possibly say that in the hands of a skilled player, they would just be "mindlessly clicking," without strategy.

edit: @reachzero: Ok, I suppose it is pointless to continue then.

 

[SJCrew]

What would be more "luck-based" would be a critical hit killing your only counter to something, as there is no risk involved with that for Noob405.

Nothing dies if Rapid Spin gets a critical hit. If Ice Beam critical hits Heatran, it's still going to do garbage. If an OHKO move hits in either of those instances, it's curtains all the time, on any Pokemon it can hit.

Also, consider the Suicune set I proposed ealier with Crocune EVs and Sheer Cold/Roar in place of Calm Mind and Surf. It's incredibly broken. And since you guys were smart and wanted to keep Drizzle to "check Sand" now you get to play with Rest Lapras using Sheer Cold as many times as it wants.

"You'll do nothing most of the time!" you say? Well that's okay with me, I'll just keep coming in on your walls and using that move until something dies. Rinse, repeat. Even if it only happens 30% of the time, getting a free KO shouldn't happen in competitive Pokemon.

 

[TacoBot]

Nothing dies if Rapid Spin gets a critical hit. If Ice Beam critical hits Heatran, it's still going to do garbage. If an OHKO move hits in either of those instances, it's curtains all the time, on any Pokemon it can hit.

Also, consider the Suicune set I proposed ealier with Crocune EVs and Sheer Cold/Roar in place of Calm Mind and Surf. It's incredibly broken. And since you guys were smart and wanted to keep Drizzle to "check Sand" now you get to play with Rest Lapras using Sheer Cold as many times as it wants.

"You'll do nothing most of the time!" you say? Well that's okay with me, I'll just keep coming in on your walls and using that move until something dies. Rinse, repeat. Even if it only happens 30% of the time, getting a free KO shouldn't happen in competitive Pokemon.

To be fair a crit at the wrong time can take down important checks and counters (Garchomp's EQ critted your defensive Starmie and OHKO'd? WHOOPS), but a crit has 6.25% chance to happen as opposed to the OHKO moves' 30% chance of hitting. Do the math.

And the funniest thing is, the accuracy of OHKO moves aren't affected by evasion boosts (or accuracy boosts for that matter).

Otherwise, you worded my previous posts in a different way.

 

[NC]

Nothing dies if Rapid Spin gets a critical hit. If Ice Beam critical hits Heatran, it's still going to do garbage. If an OHKO move hits in either of those instances, it's curtains all the time, on any Pokemon it can hit.

Also, consider the Suicune set I proposed ealier with Crocune EVs and Sheer Cold/Roar in place of Calm Mind and Surf. It's incredibly broken. And since you guys were smart and wanted to keep Drizzle to "check Sand" now you get to play with Rest Lapras using Sheer Cold as many times as it wants.

"You'll do nothing most of the time!" you say? Well that's okay with me, I'll just keep coming in on your walls and using that move until something dies. Rinse, repeat. Even if it only happens 30% of the time, getting a free KO shouldn't happen in competitive Pokemon.

This will be my last post on the subject to prevent derailing the topic even more but in response to the bolded part, you don't know that. You are theorizing it. I agree that sheer cold suicune set looks very threatening, but it has never been tested and who is to say that it would end up more threatening than regular crocune? Even if it was, why is it the default that it shouldn't be? If it was too good, then suicune itself could be banned without eliminating the strategy from every other, less potent threat that gets OHKO moves. The same could go for lapras (given that drizzle was still around). Is there some inherent reason that lapras/suicune shouldn't or couldn't be banned?

As for your last statement, the KO isn't free. You are inflicting an opportunity cost on yourself that any other move in the game you can use (barring splash and other pointless things) would be more effective than the one you are using 70% of the time. I realize we are both saying the same thing and wording it so our own position sounds better, but I don't believe calling the kills "free" would be accurate.

edit: @ Tacobot: However, a critical hits has 0 risk involved, while OHKO moves have a huge risk. Bigger risk = bigger payoff. It could be broken, but it has not been tested to prove that one way or the other.

Also, yes OHKO moves would be a very good check for evasion moves if both were allowed.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

This will be my last post on the subject to prevent derailing the topic even more but in response to the bolded part, you don't know that. You are theorizing it. I agree that sheer cold suicune set looks very threatening, but it has never been tested and who is to say that it would end up more threatening than regular crocune? Even if it was, why is it the default that it shouldn't be? If it was too good, then suicune itself could be banned without eliminating the strategy from every other, less potent threat that gets OHKO moves. The same could go for lapras (given that drizzle was still around). Is there some inherent reason that lapras/suicune shouldn't or couldn't be banned?

As for your last statement, the KO isn't free. You are inflicting an opportunity cost on yourself that any other move in the game you can use (barring splash and other pointless things) would be more effective than the one you are using 70% of the time. I realize we are both saying the same thing and wording it so our own position sounds better, but I don't believe calling the kills "free" would be accurate.

edit: @ Tacobot: However, a critical hits has 0 risk involved, while OHKO have a huge risk. Bigger risk = bigger payoff. It could be broken, but it has not been tested to prove that one way or the other.

Also, yes OHKO moves would be a very good check for evasion moves if both were allowed.

Actually it has. if you followed the last World Championship one person made it very far in the tournament using a Sheer Cold Suicune. I'm not the best person to speak on this but thats success against the best players in the world.

 

[alamaster]

Yeah but how often will that happen? You may get far in a single tournament but laddering against a ton of opponents, not 5 or 6 more like 150-200 odds are very much against you.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Keep in mind that was in doubles where two pokes can gang up on you. Make a team of bulky Suicune, Bulky Lapras and bulky Walrein with a bit of para support and i guarantee your losing at least 4 mons 90% of the time.

 

[SJCrew]

This will be my last post on the subject to prevent derailing the topic even more but in response to the bolded part, you don't know that. You are theorizing it. I agree that sheer cold suicune set looks very threatening, but it has never been tested and who is to say that it would end up more threatening than regular crocune? Even if it was, why is it the default that it shouldn't be? If it was too good, then suicune itself could be banned without eliminating the strategy from every other, less potent threat that gets OHKO moves. The same could go for lapras (given that drizzle was still around). Is there some inherent reason that lapras/suicune shouldn't or couldn't be banned?

We are Pokemon players, not a team of fully trained scientists that require data to understand the simplest of concepts about the game we play. I can "theorize" Kyogre ripping up OU if we let it down and still be right. I can do the same for Zekrom, Reshiram, Mewtwo, and Palkia and I highly doubt a week of testing is going to suddenly say that they don't still hilariously overpower the rest of the game (that they were specifically designed to shit all over, mind you).

Even if you "require" proof before you believe that 30% is still too significant a chance to automatically lose Pokemon, a lot of us don't, and the people in charge seem to agree. It's not for me to say whether or not this will be tested in the future, but my data is my experience in this game, which allows me to understand the significance of chance, luck, and what an unprecedented KO does to a player's strategy. I know Focus Blast misses like a bitch when I want it to hit and if I were sure that it'd KO a Pokemon every time it missed, I would put it on something bulky, spam it, and watch my opponent flail about.

And if you think stall is bad enough now with stuff like Rankurusu and the new, more powerful generation making it less viable, imagine what OHKO moves will do. On one hand, it will be viable because Stall members can switch to "hazards + OHKO moves", but on the other hand, having a single Pokemon just use Ressttalk shuffle + OHKO will shit all over it. It will be a very, very messy metagame, and even worse than the one we've had before or the one that is to come.

I'm seriously glad people like you aren't in charge because I don't want to have to go through two weeks of proving Mewtwo is broken just to satisfy your obsessive need for data on everything in the game. I'll take a more playable game over theories and science any day.

 

[alamaster]

Keep in mind that was in doubles where two pokes can gang up on you. Make a team of bulky Suicune, Bulky Lapras and bulky Walrein with a bit of para support and i guarantee your losing at least 4 mons 90% of the time.

You guarantee it huh? How exactly does one guarantee something that is completely luck based?

 

[Fluffy Otters]

You guarantee it huh? How exactly does one guarantee something that is completely luck based?

Considering that there were MULTIPLE in doubles (and at least 3 on the team apparently) Sheer Cold users fighting together and the chance of Sheer Cold hitting from each one is an independent event and both are firing, I think that is at least a 60% chance of hitting at least once each turn. Considering they were coming from things like Suicune/Walrein/Lapras which can be pretty tough to kill if you can't be hitting supereffectively and could REST and start all over and apparently evasion doesn't change the chance of ohko's hitting, the likelyhood of killing multiple Pokemon is pretty high and with only 2 turns, you have a chance of hitting at least once near 50% I believe. While 50% is not all that likely in Pokemon some of the times (the chance of Dynamic Punch without No Guard hitting), that is very disturbingly high for ohkos from such bulky Pokemon. And the longer the battle, the more and more ridiculous and requirement of fighting on a time clock.

 

[alamaster]

Rest lasts for 3 turns now, making the strategy highly ineffective. I'm not saying it can't work, but I would much rather use something that's not complete garbage most of the time.

 

[domeface]

You guarantee it huh? How exactly does one guarantee something that is completely luck based?

It's called probability. If you use all 8 Sheer Colds, then the chance of it hitting once or twice out of those uses is pretty high. Just as if you use Boil Over 8 times, chances are one of them's gonna burn. It's not a 100% guarantee, but saying three Sheer Cold users who'll ususally be bulky enough to use it most of the available times are guaranteed to take down around 4 opposing pokemon 90% of the time is a reasonable estimate. I'd probably say 90%'s a bit high since it depends what you're facing (Sheer Cold users have similar weaknesses) but that's no different to any other strategy. Nobody expects you to always hit the first time using Sheer Cold. But if you've got a pokemon bulky enough to spam it repeatedly, it becomes a legitimate strategy, no different to spamming Boil Over to get a burn. Whether or not it's broken I'm not sure, but it's not 'completely luck based' at all.

 

[TacoBot]

I wouldn't count a move that gives most Pokemon a 30% chance to OHKO their counter (bar Sturdy or enemies who are immune to that particular OHKO move) with zero risk (which excludes Pokemon who would get Pursuited to oblivion) complete garbage, especially since normally the counter will triumph most of the time should the countered Pokemon stay in. I can choose to Swords Dance and watch Gliscor ruin my fun -again-, or I can spam OHKO move and pray for the 30% chance for Gliscor to go down. And the best part is, I don't even have to carry HP Ice. If I miss, I switch out and try again later.

People will find a way to abuse OHKO moves. You can bet on it. Even if they don't, you bring it down for testing and it'll be kicked out by the next phase anyhow because no one really wants OHKO moves to even be allowed in standard meta because it is a gamble that has too high of a reward.

EDIT: Also, if you're faster than your opponent, using the OHKO move twice: once on the switch-in and then again on the next turn, you have a net 60% chance to hit with the OHKO move. Those guys who hated Jirachi and Togekiss please stand up.

 

[alamaster]

And I guess I'm supposed to sit there and just let it happen right? Just off the top of my head Substitute, Taunt users, Skarmory unless you can hit it twice in a row, Trick users all beat it. Chances are the users are pretty bulky, meaning slow so the majority outspeed and can sub or w/e before the OHKO user has a shot of killing. And just say most of the time, saying guaranteed is contradictory. It's like that anchorman line "60% of the time it works everytime"

 

[Arc Tech]

Rest lasts for 3 turns now, making the strategy highly ineffective. I'm not saying it can't work, but I would much rather use something that's not complete garbage most of the time.

Rest still lasts 2 turns. The 3 turns thing was just a rumor.

 

[alamaster]

Oh nvm then. Still the odds of OHKO moves hitting while you are asleep are like 9%, I wouldn't bank on that.

 

[SJCrew]

And I guess I'm supposed to sit there and just let it happen right? Just off the top of my head Substitute, Taunt users, Skarmory unless you can hit it twice in a row, Trick users all beat it. Chances are the users are pretty bulky, meaning slow so the majority outspeed and can sub or w/e before the OHKO user has a shot of killing. And just say most of the time, saying guaranteed is contradictory. It's like that anchorman line "60% of the time it works everytime"

Substitute users have to switch in, and the chance to KO remains 30%. Skarmory has to switch in. Taunt does...nothing. If you're trying to prevent Sleep Talk, you're just wasting your time because I wake up the turn after you Taunt. If you try to Sub on Suicune, I will just Roar you out and wait for more opportunities to Sheer Cold. How does Trick stop me from attacking, again?

You can't OHKO-proof your team, you just have to hope it doesn't happen.

 

[alamaster]

I can trick you as you're sleep talking, switch in as you're resting and sub, skarmory dgf because you still have to hit it twice in a row to kill it, taunt beats you as you are resting and makes it impossible for you to rest again, so I kill you and its over. Jesus fuck, it's like inconsistent all over again isn't it? Apparently I couldn't inconsistent-proof my team either but out of the 75+ matches I faced it I never lost to it. Go figure.

 

[iDunno]

One time I was in the Battle Tower on like floor 70 or something. I had all of my Pokemon in tip top shape. Then I met Fissure Sheer Cold Lapras. That thing HIT with EVERY SINGLE OHKO MOVE AND SWEPT MY TEAM. Pokemon is a game of hax, but lets not introduce something that can take hax to a different level. Its one thing to get a crit or a freeze, but come on! You can actually SWEEP TEAMS with OHKO moves if you're extremely lucky, which shouldn't be able to happen. Please. Stop. This. Conversation. It's idiotic. HORRIBLE PLAYERS SHOULD BE PIGEONHOLED SO THAT THEY DON'T WIN GAMES UNLESS THEY GET BETTER.

 

[alamaster]

I agree with you, except for basing your argument off of one time of ridiculous hax. I just don't think that OHKO moves are broken, but they shouldn't be let back in the game for the very reason that they are luck based and uncompetitive.

 

[iDunno]

I agree with you, except for basing your argument off of one time of ridiculous hax. I just don't think that OHKO moves are broken, but they shouldn't be let back in the game for the very reason that they are luck based and uncompetitive.

yeah.. I realize that was a pretty far fetched example, but it happened >_>. I agree that OHKO moves aren't broken. But I also think that at the very most, they are just crutches for bad players.

 

[Judas DN]

yeah.. I realize that was a pretty far fetched example, but it happened >_>. I agree that OHKO moves aren't broken. But I also agree that at the very most, they are crutches for bad players.

I once lost to a user with a team filled with pokemon only using Confusion/T-wave/Brightpowder and Sand Veil. He was clearly a bad player and only won because he was lucky enough that i was never be able to strike back. However since most players do not want to completely rely on luck such situations rarely happen and certainly not high on the ladder. There is no way to make my team 'foolproof' against such a strategy just as their is no way to make my team foolproof against OHKO moves(at least not without making a completely horrible team). The question is now, how can it be used in effectively in competitive environments such as tournaments?

In high competitive play pressure on using the right tactics is so high that just one wrong move may lose you the game. Say for example, you managed to OHKO your opponent after one single Sheer Cold and than you miss twice to the next. These two turns can give your opponents such a significant advantage that he can overcome his numerical disadvantage and win the game regardless.

An example of how beneficial these free turns are are well shown in the Gen IV ubers metagame. Where people often allowed Wobbuffet to take a significant blow just to make sure that his sweeper get's one free turn ONE. As such if one free turn was worth one full teamslot then wouldn't the same logic for OHKO moves apply as well? Sacrificing one pokemon but eventually 'getting' these highly valuable free turns to win the game. To be honest, i cannot think of a single reason why a person whose only objective is to win the battle would ever take such a significant risk

This is why i agree with NC's sentiment that OHKO move's should at least be tested properly. The fact that Mew proved to be underwhelming at best shows that old taboo's can be wrong.

But if you've got a pokemon bulky enough to spam it repeatedly, it becomes a legitimate strategy, no different to spamming Boil Over to get a burn. Whether or not it's broken I'm not sure, but it's not 'completely luck based' at all.

Your logic is sound however it would only reflect reality if all good users of Boil Over learned Sheer Cold as well, which is not the case. When i read through the list of allowed Sheer Cold users i only see Ice type pokemon. Despite their bulkiness they will not last long enough with their horrid Rock weakness to spam Sheer cold for an extended period of time. Also Boil Over actually does damage even when it doesn't cause a burn, which makes setting up in front of it more difficult.

Evasion and OHKO moves are complicated subjects that have already been discussed in depth, and let's be honest: nothing is going to be done to test these, if ever, until after the Standard metagame has had time to settle in. No one will want to have to deal with OHKO moves while we're still figuring out what to do with Randorosu, etc. What ever happened to actually talking about the metagame?

I remember having heard the same a long time ago during generation IV, guess what the test never happened. To me this sounds like delaying the problem just for the sake of not having to deal with it.

EDIT: As a side note, OHKO moves are allowed on the PO server and i've never heard people complaining about it. I know that PO may not have the best players but it may be a good indication that OHKO moves could not be such a disaster as some people make of it.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Stop. We are not having this conversation. You've used this terrible argument back in 4th gen also. Not all Pokemon have "perfect counters". You can't assume everything is on your side (aka 3 layers of spikes, 2 layers of tspikes, 1 SR, sandstorm is up for more residual damage, etc). Using that logic, Lucario has no counters because you can just HP Ice Gliscor or Close Combat a Blissey coming in expecting an Aura Sphere. Sometimes Pokemon have no immediate counters. Choice Band Dragonite's Outrage is immensely powerful but is it uber? No. Stop using this terrible argument and learn to play the game. Sacrifice what you need to at certain times in the match and switch in something that can handle Machamp. If your team can't handle a Pokemon, then maybe you should fix it so you can check it better.

There's another thing called prediction. You can't automatically assume that Machamp will hit the Pokemon with a super effective move. What if the opponent predicts that and brings in something that resists that move? What if you predict that switch and hit that Pokemon with a super effective move instead? You can't automatically assume you make the right move. That's the flaw in your argument. And even if you hit Slowbro with a Choice Banded ThunderPunch, what's to stop him from going to Landlos and setting up a Swords Dance/Rock Polish and sweeping your team?

The more you try to refute my arguments, the more you prove my point. I know that not everything has a "perfect" counter, but we play by smogon's rules here. Going by their definition of a counter, he really doesn't have any counters. And all the walls that you mentioned, even if they can survive a choice banded thunderpunch (or whatever) they can't OHKO him back. And what if he isn't choice banded at all?? He can also learn encore, and if he manages to encore a support move (such as slack off) your wall becomes setup fodder!

Oh, and btw, if you have to sacrifice something just to get rid of a threat, it doesn't really count as a 'counter'

 

[supermarth64]

We don't ban things because they have no counters.

Let me repeat that.

We don't ban things because they have no counters.

Besides if he doesn't have a Choice Band then he doesn't hit hard enough to 2HKO Slowbro on the switch in so Slowbro could always Toxic/Thunder Wave/Psychic/Burn with Boiling Water. And don't say you're using Guts because then you're not using No Guard which is the number 1 reason to use Machamp.