Evasion is something the metagame hates, and has been banned for a reason. Sand Veil is BS simply because it can turns games around. Everything looks to be good until it starts haxing you like a (BAN ME PLEASE). When Chomp subs and you miss your attack, it can start racking up SDs, eventually killing your physical wall. Moves which somewhat reliable that are around the 80-90 mark become shaky. And then trying to hit Garchomp becomes a haxfest. I think Weather + Hax ability should be suspect.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Garchomp is only a problem when Sand Veil is in effect. Therefore it should be banned in that context.
So basically, you just said the same thing as me in different words and you're trying to justify Aldaron's proposal by saying it can only be applied to weather or whatever you say it can. You do realize the community can ignore both you and Aldaron and just get whatever they want banned if they can rally up enough idiots, right?
"Okay, Aldaron's proposal means that only weather-based stuff can be banned."
Why. Where are you getting this info from. How does Aldaron suddenly tell us what we can and cannot ban in the future. Aldaron's power ends at Aldaron's proposal. You have none to begin with. Therefore, you telling us that we can only make complex bans based on the criteria you established is horseshit. We will establish new criteria for new complex bans if we deem them necessary.
But since I don't see any of that right now, all we need to do is decide what the metagame's biggest problem is, and find a fancy way to word it into a complex ban. Sand Power Doryuuzu doesn't sound like such a big deal...but for right now, let's get rid of Sand Veil + Garchomp.
"Starmie used Ice
Hop to it, folks.
Sand Veil is only in effect when Sandstorm is in play, which essentially means it's only in effect when it's paired with Sand Stream. So that's exactly what I said.
I said no such thing. What I said is that since we have the option to only ban Sand Veil + Sand Stream rather than banning Sand Veil completely, we should take that option. There is no reason for us not to.
I can't even begin to guess at what arguments you've imagined me making in order to give such a response.
You have yet to give a single reason why banning Sand Veil entirely would be better than banning Sand Veil + Sand Stream.
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In conclusion, what the hell are you trying to say?
Paralysis, confusion, and flinching are all effects of moves that your opponent needs to actively use in order to get the effect. Flinching is particularly limited because your opponent has to be using one specific move and go first in order to activate the flinch effect. Sand Veil is passive; your opponent can nullify the effects of your attacks without doing a thing.
Thorhammer, can you please stop already? Aldaron's proposal passed because it was the best way to keep both Drizzle and the SSers in the metagame, not because weather is something magical. All other problems with weather are due to INDIVIDUAL POKEMON, who can be banned INDIVIDUALLY without any need for complication. The only reason it existed in the first place was that by the old rules Politoed would have been banned by Support, but at the same time it offers a lot to the metagame. Nothing else works like this. Please stop. We've all had this same damn argument SO many times.
I'm not giving reasons for an argument I didn't make. In fact, I'm pretty sure Sand Veil + Garchomp is all over my previous post. Call it hunch, but I think you just want to Ban Sand Veil + Sand Stream because it looks so similar to Aldaron's proposal.
In fact, I'm not even going to pretend for a second that I care about missing against Pokemon no one uses, like Cacturne, Sand Veil Dugtrio, Sand Veil Gliscor. There's no need to keep Pokemon that suck from using being able to use Sand Veil, because they suck even with Sand Veil and don't benefit as much from a free turn as Garchomp does.
Instead of using the complex ban to make the ability do nothing, why don't we just keep Garchomp from using it? He's the only Sand Veil user that's causing a problem.
I'm sure that double team Noctowl, Armaldo, and Raticate wouldn't be much of a problem either.
And it really does make more sense to flat out ban the abilities; you can also run the move that makes them have a broken effect (7 turns of missing is enough to get more than enough set-up, while 7 turns of high speed and boosted attack is nowhere near infinite).
Then why not ban Snow Cloak too?
Because it's not a problem. It's only 20%, and it's nullified if the weather's changed. It's just as haxy as a crit or a flinch.
On my Hail Team, Snow Cloak helps my Froslass dodge maybe one move every two or three fights. It's helpful, but hardly broken. I imagine that's the case with most Sand Veil users. If it turns out that Garchomp is OP because of it, then either ban Garchomp or ban Garchomp with Sand Veil (though with the latter, you're getting into too complex bans). Personally, I haven't had trouble with him, but then again, that's probably because I run a Hail team.
I'm getting more and more against banning "hax" abilities based on the Evasion Clause or whatever, even if the alternative ability becomes available, because of the legality issues that would arise. Choosing Sand Veil on Garchomp no longer necessarily means that you chose it solely to abuse it. Also, "Aldaron's proposal" shouldn't set a precedent at all; if you people want to push for something like it, then perhaps you should actually make an argument that's as convincing as Aldaron's. Then maybe you'll actually catch the attention of the one who can actually put it to a vote.
I actually see more people responding in angry and annoyed manners to the "banning idea" of sand veil/snow cloak than I actually see people even in favor for it. I think we already established its not a problem? No one really is pressing for a sand veil ban, rather, its just one thing we could mention considering this meta being so clean right now.
Seriously, people are throwing a fit over a passing suggestion.
Seriously, people are throwing a fit over a passing suggestion.
Its a dumb idea, it makes move miss 20% of the time?, big deal!!!, its not worth baning anything over... deal with it!
Just keep the game the way it is now.
Just keep the game the way it is now.
Garchomp's a dick (like when my hp ice and bullet punch missed on a 20% sd chomp... Ugh) but it's not broken. Most of the time your counters work, it's honestly not a huge deal, just something to keep in mind while team building, your checks might fail so put on an extra one.
I can't believe people are actually in favor of keeping Sand Veil. I guess making a game rely more on skill and less on the random number generator means nothing to you.
And yes I realize we can't eliminate the random number generator completely but even then, Sand Veil should directly fall under the Evasion clause.
And yes I realize we can't eliminate the random number generator completely but even then, Sand Veil should directly fall under the Evasion clause.
If you guys ever want to bring up 'skills' then how about you use said 'skills' to actually play Pokemon and kill the Tyranitar and then set up your own weather -_-
You'd think that people would understand the super-basic stuff but it looks as if that isn't the case.
If you choose not to run a different weather you accept that the opponent is going to be benefiting from 1.5x special defense (rock types), 1.3x power (Sand Power), 2x speed (Sand Throw) or a 20% evasion boost (Sand Veil).
The opponent has already considered these benefits while making a team and has built a strategy around many, many different types of boosts and benefits. You can either:
If you choose not to run a different weather you accept that the opponent is going to be benefiting from 1.5x special defense (rock types), 1.3x power (Sand Power), 2x speed (Sand Throw) or a 20% evasion boost (Sand Veil).
The opponent has already considered these benefits while making a team and has built a strategy around many, many different types of boosts and benefits. You can either:
- accept these disadvantages and play with no weather / use sand yourself
- work actively to negate the opponent's weather by using your own, thereby robbing your opponent of all of those boosts and giving yourself quite a few of your own
- or bitch about it on the forums
Uh, since when is it impossible to run something like Hail (the move) on a random member of your team to fuck the opponent's team over? If anything, this screws with your opponent even more, because if they see something like Ninetales on your team, they're going to fight to keep their Politoed/Tyranitar/Hippo/Abomasnow alive because of Team Preview. If they don't, they'll assume it's okay to sac them when they need death fodder, and then you can surprise them by wrecking their weather strategy with your random weather move.
And honestly, Garchomp isn't even that hard to beat, even with Sand Veil.
I very much agree with people who are saying that there are no suspects. Yes, there are pokemon that are really good and top-tier, but I don't think any of them need to be banned.
This must be why they say that Rain dance Kindra is anti metagame.
Uhh, latios has like 2 safe switch ins, and those can be beaten if you predict. Ttar loses if they surf and guess right on the crunch vs pursuit. Why isn't it getting more love (hate) in this thread and being discussed about being banned? It doesnt have trouble switching in bc of resists and destroys stuff once it's in, and it outruns most of the meta. Someone explain how it is not a suspect.
Something passive has a small, 20% chance of activating.
Something that requires moves has a much larger percent chance of happening.
Makes sense to me. Using the Turn Iron Heading a paralyzed Pokemon for a little better than a coin flip for a free turn, or not doing anything for a tiny chance for one at the requirement of needing to use a slot for TTar or Hippo. It's just.... different.
Really, there's nothing wrong with Sand Veil or Snow Cloak, people just are mad salty against Garchomp because of Gen IV. Grow up, people.
Read Aldaron's proposal again. The whole reason it was acceptable is because it established weather abilities as being different from other types of complex bans.
However, it's also false to say that the problems with rain were not because of individual Pokemon. Only certain Pokemon - generally agreed to be Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops - caused problems in the rain. No other Swift Swim Pokemon was broken under any conditions, and therefore they should not have been banned under any conditions.
...Okay? Then argue in favor of that. Be sure to include an explanation for why we should ignore the policy that was explicitly made at the start of Gen 5 not to ban individual abilities on individual Pokemon.
As for my argument against it? Garchomp's DW ability has not been released. At this stage, banning Sand Veil, or even Sand Veil Garchomp, means banning Garchomp entirely, which is something we should not do, as Garchomp is not broken. Even with Sand Veil, it is not broken.
I am advocating for both a Sand Veil + Sand Stream ban and a Snow Cloak + Snow Warning ban.
We aren't talking about what's broken. We're talking about what violates the Evasion Clause and causes a purely negative impact on the metagame.
It makes sense, but that doesn't make them automatically equal. Furthermore, when a passive ability causes a 20% chance of any attack against a Pokemon missing, regardless of the Pokemon's actions, that's far from a small chance.
I have no bias against Garchomp. In fact, I think its reintroduction to OU was an excellent addition to the metagame. However, when it is paired with Sand Stream, it stops being an excellent addition and instead becomes a luck-based one that detracts from the metagame.
Thorhammer, Aldaron himself has stated that you completely misunderstand the purpose of his proposal. The purpose of it was to keep Drizzle OU, not for the sake of it being OU, but for the prevention of numerous bans resulting from the destabilization it's removal would cause. Please stop fallaciously claiming that Aldaron's proposal justifies any complex ban just because a weather is mentioned in the ban - all of your proposed bans put emphasis on balancing the Pokemon in question, not on balancing the weather you are merely using as a stepping stone to justify the ban itself. That completely defeats the entire reason the proposal was established!
Additionally, banning Sand Veil + SS or Snow Cloak + Hail is not only the result of this misunderstanding, but also bans far more than the activation of evasion-based abilities. It limits the movepools of the Pokemon that have them as their primary abilities. There has never been a ban that has directly hindered Pokemon merely in the interest of reducing luck-based factors in the metagame. And before you go off on a tangent about Inconsistent, keep in mind that ban was made because Inconsistent was a special case. Does a Sand Veil Pokemon turn the entire game into a crapshoot like Inconsistent did more often than not? No. While it is possible to lose a game because of an Ice Beam miss on Garchomp, it is just as possible to lose a game because of a Flamethrower burn on you Terakion, or a crit on your Nattorei.
I thought you had finished with your complex banning antics when Aldaron stated quite clearly that you misunderstood the purpose of his proposal, but I guess I was wrong.
Additionally, banning Sand Veil + SS or Snow Cloak + Hail is not only the result of this misunderstanding, but also bans far more than the activation of evasion-based abilities. It limits the movepools of the Pokemon that have them as their primary abilities. There has never been a ban that has directly hindered Pokemon merely in the interest of reducing luck-based factors in the metagame. And before you go off on a tangent about Inconsistent, keep in mind that ban was made because Inconsistent was a special case. Does a Sand Veil Pokemon turn the entire game into a crapshoot like Inconsistent did more often than not? No. While it is possible to lose a game because of an Ice Beam miss on Garchomp, it is just as possible to lose a game because of a Flamethrower burn on you Terakion, or a crit on your Nattorei.
I thought you had finished with your complex banning antics when Aldaron stated quite clearly that you misunderstood the purpose of his proposal, but I guess I was wrong.
Lets look at this for a second.
Sand Veil has a 20 % chance of activating when sand is up (0.2/1)
For sand to be up T-Tar must be on the field (and the Hippo but no one uses him). From experience, I'd say that T-Tar is on 30% of all teams, with two teams available, thats a 51% chance of him being in battle (.7*.7=.49, that being the chance of him not being present).
Right away you have only a 10% chance of it activating under normal conditions,
Then consider that Rain, Sun and Hail teams count for about (my estimation) a further 20 percent of teams (1% Hail, 6% Rain, 13% Sun). Assume that in half of those battles the opposite weather will prevail and remain. That a potential 2% lost (if Chomp switches in of the weather inducer) and a further 2% lost in a different scenario if the Tar is already down.
Then you have to consider that your Tar gets Sand up and a random poke changes it. I've used Sunny Day on my Balloon Tran before and it worked very well.
So you people are bitching about a pokemon which by guesstimations has an ability that on average will activate in only 5% of those battles (I would be willing to wager that those guesstimations would have no more than a 6% margin for error)?
Garchomp is part of the game now. In fourth gen it was banned because of the combination of its ability and the fact that few things could check and OHKO it alongside the fact that sand was omnipresent.
That is no longer the case.
Weather is more diverse than ever and there are many new pokemon with the ability to beat Garchomp. An ability that has a 20% perecnt chance to swing momentum, but is only able to activate under certain conditions (given my calcs every fourth game) is not even close to being banworthy.
Sand Veil has a 20 % chance of activating when sand is up (0.2/1)
For sand to be up T-Tar must be on the field (and the Hippo but no one uses him). From experience, I'd say that T-Tar is on 30% of all teams, with two teams available, thats a 51% chance of him being in battle (.7*.7=.49, that being the chance of him not being present).
Right away you have only a 10% chance of it activating under normal conditions,
Then consider that Rain, Sun and Hail teams count for about (my estimation) a further 20 percent of teams (1% Hail, 6% Rain, 13% Sun). Assume that in half of those battles the opposite weather will prevail and remain. That a potential 2% lost (if Chomp switches in of the weather inducer) and a further 2% lost in a different scenario if the Tar is already down.
Then you have to consider that your Tar gets Sand up and a random poke changes it. I've used Sunny Day on my Balloon Tran before and it worked very well.
So you people are bitching about a pokemon which by guesstimations has an ability that on average will activate in only 5% of those battles (I would be willing to wager that those guesstimations would have no more than a 6% margin for error)?
Garchomp is part of the game now. In fourth gen it was banned because of the combination of its ability and the fact that few things could check and OHKO it alongside the fact that sand was omnipresent.
That is no longer the case.
Weather is more diverse than ever and there are many new pokemon with the ability to beat Garchomp. An ability that has a 20% perecnt chance to swing momentum, but is only able to activate under certain conditions (given my calcs every fourth game) is not even close to being banworthy.
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