rain dance Kingdra is seriously anti-metagame, isn't used much but probably will when some popular user posts an rmt that has it in it
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
- Status
My god, i just encountered a shell smash baton pass team and it was scary as hell, with both Gorebyss and Smeargal as the passers, it totally slipped my mind that Smeargal could learn shell smash as well, i was like "noooooo". Thankfully Gorebyss passed to Garchomp, so even with the boost my Weezing could live its Dragon Claw and use clear smog to remove the boost... that guy shouldve carried Outrage (though im not really sure if Weezing wouldnt survive that). Anyway, somehow i won the battle.
Grachomp needs to get the fuck out! or at least until it gets it's dream world ability.
Sand veil is just to much of a big advantage in sandstorm.
I lost several battles thanks to sand veil misses and in most battles, Garchomp was the last Pokemon and I had like 3 or 4 Pokemon left.
So Garchomp should get banned or Sand Veil+Snow Cloak.
Sand veil is just to much of a big advantage in sandstorm.
I lost several battles thanks to sand veil misses and in most battles, Garchomp was the last Pokemon and I had like 3 or 4 Pokemon left.
So Garchomp should get banned or Sand Veil+Snow Cloak.
How does that open precedence to misses and crits being banned? Crits are neccessary to end CM/Curse/Bulk Up/Cosmic Power wars. Misses are a risk/reward thing.
I'm getting a little sick of the word "precedence" being thrown around anytime somebody mentions a ban. There are alternatives to Sand Veil that could promote a healthier metagame where you don't lose 1/5 games because of an ability causing a dice roll. There is no risk in choosing Sand Veil on your Garchomp at the moment.
Indeed, sand veil and snow cloak are more directly comparable to evasion moves than crits or misses, and evasion moves are banned under evasion clause. I, and other users, fell that sand veil and snow cloak should now be listed under evasion clause now that it no longer leads to the banning of certain pokemon (Are there any still unreleased in DW?).
That's your choice to use a less than 100% accurate move. Some of us have lousy luck and use 100% accuracy moves whenever possible, but Sand veil and snow cloak take away our ability to do that.
That's your choice to use a less than 100% accurate move. Some of us have lousy luck and use 100% accuracy moves whenever possible, but Sand veil and snow cloak take away our ability to do that.
Child, it is very different. I have the choice to take a risk with a low acc move or I can be safe and use a 100% acc. Sand veil has no risk and I won't have a safe option to choose.
Banning Sand Veil or Snow Cloak completely would have too many unwanted implications on the metagame at this stage, such as the banning of Garchomp in all battles. However, banning Sand Veil + Sand Stream and Snow Clock + Snow Warning should be seriously considered. Both combinations allow any Pokemon with the ability to gain a benefit that has been judged worth banning, which is more than was true for even Aldaron's proposal.
I like this. Although, I don't how the majority will take this... although Aldaron's proposal helped stabalize the metagame by a lot, a lot of people may not like the idea of MORE weather combination bans. I agree with what youre saying though for sure.
The only thing is, although I HATE sand veil and snow cloak, and feel that they definitely fall under evasion clause (or at least under combination with their permanent weather).... I don't quite feel that this is what plagues the metagame right now. It is something to be annoyed at, but it doesnt break the metagame, and I am wondering if we have any other REAL suspects to worry about?
This seems silly. 75% accurate moves is usually fine. In fact it just promotes the use of more accurate, but less strong moves which is great for many pokemon like Glaceon which can't take that stone edge. Many frailer pokemon love and need, there evasion ability to survive.
If Garchomp seems game breaking, as a top tier pokemon with an amazing ability, in sand. then by all means ban sand veil on it. But I seriously doubt its worthy of a ban. But don't go banning all snow cloat and sand veil pokemon.
I just have problems with evasion abilities + birght powder, becuase 60% accuracy is just to evil. But thats just what I think, many cacturne users can argue that its needed.
If Garchomp seems game breaking, as a top tier pokemon with an amazing ability, in sand. then by all means ban sand veil on it. But I seriously doubt its worthy of a ban. But don't go banning all snow cloat and sand veil pokemon.
I just have problems with evasion abilities + birght powder, becuase 60% accuracy is just to evil. But thats just what I think, many cacturne users can argue that its needed.
I agree that there are no suspects at present, and that banning these combinations, while it would improve the metagame, is not something we need. In fact, as I've suggested in the past, I think we should scale back the bans we made the previous round, banning individual Pokemon under Drizzle - Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops, as well as the testing of Manaphy while being banned alongside Drizzle. Swift Swim + Drizzle is not broken; it is the individual Pokemon in combination with Drizzle that are broken. Swift Swim Luvdisc + Drizzle is not broken, whereas with Inconsistent, every Pokemon with the ability was broken. By the same token, every Pokemon with Sand Veil + Sand Stream or Snow Clock + Snow Warning abuses Evasion in a way that should fall under Evasion Clause. What should be banned is what it broken, not what happens to fall into a group of which some things are broken.
In my mind evasion clause is used to ban strategies that rely on evasion. That means actively choosing to use Minimize/Double Team or Brightpowder, because if you choose it you generally do so to rely on it as a strategy. Sand Veil/Snow Cloak on the other hand is either unintentional (as in Garchomp having no other option) or chosen because the other ability does very little. In that case it is an unavoidable side effect which is why its analogous to why we don't ban hax like critical hits or misses.
Of course I have no problem to it being banned if its found to be flat out broken (unlikely, or else the whole ability would have been banned in gen 4 where sand was the most prominent strategy which would have made Sand Veil worse. Hail was too underwhelming last gen, and is probably worse now because it has more competition to set up the weather).
The problem I have is that, even if they're released, it still rapes their move pools.
You guys are way too ban happy. They'll always be something else you want gone after the current thing is gone -_-
Yeah seriously is Sand Veil/Snow Cloak really that big of a problem? I mean I know it can be bullshit but c'mon.
Echoing many others, I haven't found anything really broken; maybe, MAYBE Deoxys-S but I really don't have enough to go on to really substantiate that claim. Also Sun, while not broken, is strongth man (SD Blaziken and Hihi Sun Flare Blitzes argh).
Echoing many others, I haven't found anything really broken; maybe, MAYBE Deoxys-S but I really don't have enough to go on to really substantiate that claim. Also Sun, while not broken, is strongth man (SD Blaziken and Hihi Sun Flare Blitzes argh).
The only pokemon who lose some gen 4 moves are garchomp, frosslass, glacieon, sandslash, and cacturne. All others had an alternative ability in Gen 4.
But i really don't think they lose any moves they ever really use. Cacturne's appeal as a subpuncher is a combination of sucker punch and sand veil, which will be gone, and the rest don't really use any of their gen 4 moves. The only thing that is lost is SR Garchomp.
And whether it rapes their movepools is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not it should be in evasion clause due to hax and any other reasons we banned DT/minimize. If an event DW Octillery is released with Shell Smash, you wouldn't say that banning Inconsistent is wrong becuase it restricts Octillery's movepool, now would you?
Sand Hax may fall under the Evasion Clause (it's almost a +1 Evasion with no cost), but... should we really bother with it now?
Glaceon's movepool is actually "raped", as DW Glaceon came fully evolved and male-only, which means no Egg moves, no Eevee moves and no 4th Gen moves.
UU will have Metagross.
Wait until we have the lower tiers.
72% (0.8 * 0.9).
Still shittastic, but not a round 60%.
Glaceon's movepool is actually "raped", as DW Glaceon came fully evolved and male-only, which means no Egg moves, no Eevee moves and no 4th Gen moves.
UU will have Metagross.
Wait until we have the lower tiers.
72% (0.8 * 0.9).
Still shittastic, but not a round 60%.
One day, all my teams will work at the same time, and then I'll be happy...
I'm actually winning battles with sun now O_O I ran into a lot of Pokémon/strategies that were high-profile (like Shell Smash and especially Blaziken), and I'm thinking that opposing weather is easily its biggest enemy (though that may be because I put my own Blaziken in the team :P). But I guess people already knew that... I'm late to the sun party -.-
I'd also be pretty sad if Garchomp lost Stealth Rock. Chomp Tank is actually pretty good (though I've said that quite a few times before). It keeps Reuniclus at bay and just tanks a surprising amount of hits while having quite a bit of power still. Just don't expect it to take a +2 Blaziken HJK...
I'm actually winning battles with sun now O_O I ran into a lot of Pokémon/strategies that were high-profile (like Shell Smash and especially Blaziken), and I'm thinking that opposing weather is easily its biggest enemy (though that may be because I put my own Blaziken in the team :P). But I guess people already knew that... I'm late to the sun party -.-
I'd also be pretty sad if Garchomp lost Stealth Rock. Chomp Tank is actually pretty good (though I've said that quite a few times before). It keeps Reuniclus at bay and just tanks a surprising amount of hits while having quite a bit of power still. Just don't expect it to take a +2 Blaziken HJK...
Tbqh, this thread is literally begging for "Nominate something to ban even if it's not broken", since the very title implies that we have to ban SOMETHING by the (supposedly inevitable) upcoming suspect test.
And IIRC, Aldaron stated that his proposal was something to keep people from becoming ban-happy towards Drizzle and give them time to calm down; not a permanent solution to set a smogon precedent by.
And IIRC, Aldaron stated that his proposal was something to keep people from becoming ban-happy towards Drizzle and give them time to calm down; not a permanent solution to set a smogon precedent by.
It doesn't matter what Aldaron said he wanted to accomplish. Stopping complex bans at Drizzle + Swift Swim would be incredibly arbitrary and hypocritical. If we can all agree that Garchomp + Sand Veil ruins the metagame, we should start a motion to ban Garchomp + Sand Veil.
It certainly does matter if the proposal was designed to be a short-term solution, as we can't simply extend that into a permanent long-term policy without reconsidering the consequences that wouldn't have appeared over the shorter time interval.
It's not about stopping complex bans at Drizzle + Swift Swim, it's about going back and finding a more stable, long term solution for that before we move on.
I was a big supporter of Garchomp's ban back in Gen 4, but currently I don't think that we have enough elements to even nominate it. Sand veil is annoying but, seriously, unless you're terribly unlucky (in this case, sorry, Pokemon is not made for you) it only activates 1-2 times per match, and this is assuming that sand storm is active.
Speaking of which, unlike in Gen 4, sand storm can no longer be considered the "default" weather condition as, you know, drizzle Politoed and drought Ninetales exist (and Abomasnow is still usable, although not common at all).
Finally, unlike the past Generation we have many Garchomp checks in the current metagame: the Lati twins, the genies, Brijion and many others are all capable of revenge killing Chomp should it manage to "hax" your first switch in.
In short: Garchomp is still a potent threat in the current metagame but it's no longer OP like in Gen 4.
Speaking of which, unlike in Gen 4, sand storm can no longer be considered the "default" weather condition as, you know, drizzle Politoed and drought Ninetales exist (and Abomasnow is still usable, although not common at all).
Finally, unlike the past Generation we have many Garchomp checks in the current metagame: the Lati twins, the genies, Brijion and many others are all capable of revenge killing Chomp should it manage to "hax" your first switch in.
In short: Garchomp is still a potent threat in the current metagame but it's no longer OP like in Gen 4.
Are Kabutops and Ludicolo really broken individually? I assumed what made the trio such a problem was that they synergized really well or something like that...
Based on what I've seen, that appears to be the case. Although it might be better to start with just Manaphy and Kingdra to make sure.
Garchomp + Sand Veil is not a problem. Stop suggesting that it is. The problem is Sand Veil + Sand Stream - and while it doesn't ruin the metagame, it certainly has a negative impact on it.
Now that Aldaron's proposal has been passed, and established that abilities can, when necessary, be banned only in combination with a weather summoning ability, there should be no consideration whatsoever of a blanket Sand Veil or Snow Cloak ban. They are only problems in combination with the corresponding weather inducing ability, and therefore should only be banned in that context.
- Status