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In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
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It clearly says "tier list" in the title. The point is to objectively compare in-game Pokémon. If you can think of objective reasons to use it, that's fine, but if you just want to talk about your favorites, there's another thread (in this very same forum) for that.
Nah, because then you'd have a choice of Scizor, Blissey, Heatran, Gyarados and about 10 others. There'd be no legendaries, everything would come with 4 set moves you cannot change and a specific nature. Oh and no items. Or fun. And you can't discuss it.
On another note i'd like to say Archen is absokutely amazing. It just destroys everything. It's the new Scyther.
Oshawott is the best starter by far.
Is Victini being tiered? If so that too must be high high high. The fire monkey and Gurrdurrhurr are also in my in-game team and shred everything and everyone.
Personally, though, I was kind of disappointed with Victini. Its early-game movepool sucks and there's a lot of Dark-type moves being thrown around.
You're allowed to use whoever you want. Realize though that this is essentially a ranking of ingame Pokemon based on usefulness taking various criteria into account. If you want to talk about how much you like a certain Pokemon, this is not the correct topic to do so.
I know, I'm just saying that there's no need to react so strongly to it.
Would it be possible to have Zorua/Zoroark tiered? Sine it's entirely possible to have 15 Johto trio members and 5 Celebi with ease, meaning you can get them through MANY playthroughs.
If so: Zorua for Mid, Zoroark (the Lostlorn Forest one) for Top. Zorua lacks power until evolving and has only mediocre STAB moves, while needing to be babied a little. Zoroark, on the other hand, comes fully-evolved at a high level, ready to abuse TMs with a huge SpA and can do decent damage on the physical side as well. It's a shame Night Daze can't be learned until level 64, though, so you're relying on the weak, physical Night Slash or the non-STAB Shadow Ball.
Either one makes great use of Illusion; they can trample Caitlin by bluffing a Fighting-type. AI doesn't handle Illusion at all, just keeps using Psychic on the Night Slashing, Psychic-immune Conkeldurr.
If so: Zorua for Mid, Zoroark (the Lostlorn Forest one) for Top. Zorua lacks power until evolving and has only mediocre STAB moves, while needing to be babied a little. Zoroark, on the other hand, comes fully-evolved at a high level, ready to abuse TMs with a huge SpA and can do decent damage on the physical side as well. It's a shame Night Daze can't be learned until level 64, though, so you're relying on the weak, physical Night Slash or the non-STAB Shadow Ball.
Either one makes great use of Illusion; they can trample Caitlin by bluffing a Fighting-type. AI doesn't handle Illusion at all, just keeps using Psychic on the Night Slashing, Psychic-immune Conkeldurr.
Okay, sorry guys. Kind of misunderstood the point of the thread, I guess. At least, at the time of the post I did.
Zoroark's Night Slash isn't as weak as it seems, a friend I did a playthrough with said it was very powerful compared to what it'd seem like. Everything in-game seems more powerful than it looks, now that I think about it...
Zoroark's Night Slash isn't as weak as it seems, a friend I did a playthrough with said it was very powerful compared to what it'd seem like. Everything in-game seems more powerful than it looks, now that I think about it...
The problems with Victini, Zorua, and Zoroark are that they are event Pokemon. Thus they are merely excluded from the batch of the Pokemon available in-game.
Just fyi: I curse for my friends. But really, Klink only having Gear Saucer... Is a lot like Petilil having only Giga Drain. But arguably worse. And I'd sooner put Petilil in High than Kling.
Also for those dissing on Stoutland relying on Take Down: Return exists you know.
Just fyi: I curse for my friends. But really, Klink only having Gear Saucer... Is a lot like Petilil having only Giga Drain. But arguably worse. And I'd sooner put Petilil in High than Kling.
Also for those dissing on Stoutland relying on Take Down: Return exists you know.
Zorua/Zoroark are technically not event pokemon - they require DPPtHGSS Celebi/Beasts, but they are not technically event pokemon.
Hell, at the very least, couldn't they be ranked like the pokewalker pokemon in HGSS? Technically, they can be obtained at any time in the game's life, unlike Victini.
Sewaddle deserves to be moved up, at least to upper mid when the tier is created. It rapes 3/4 of the elite four with Swords Dance / Leaf Blade / X-scissor / Shadow Claw. Leaf Blade is powerful, as is X-Scissor.
On the note of evolving it: it can be evolved very, very quickly with the use of 20 HP Potions. Since each raises happiness every time it's used, if you just use one per battle in resort desert (sandstorm always causes damage), it will quickly gain happiness.
Take down doesn't even have that bad of accuarcy either. 85% accuracy hits most of the time. So far I have noticed it miss twice. Thats not bad at all.
Jirachi has a conditional tiering on the RSE list.
Victini not being included is quite sensible, since it's only available right now. However, Zorua and Zoroark are not limited-time; they can be obtained just as easily next year as right now, provided you have a DPPt/HGSS cartridge with the events on it.
As such, I feel it would be sensible to include a conditional tiering for them, a la RSE Jirachi or Gigalith/Conkeldurr/Escavalier/Accelgor.
And you could also say that Zorua and Zoroark are GTS-exclusive Pokémon, considering it's the only other way to get them. Everybody breed your Zorua and Zoroark together to make little Zorua babies, who, as the parents spend more time in Day Care, will eventually be born with Night Daze. The little Zorua babies will probably be good things to put on the GTS considering it's the only way to get them if you missed the event.
I'd actually say that in-game, Victini is outclassed by Darumaka, and even using it as a special attacker is redundant with Darumaka, unlike the later, better, Litwick. However, it is good for training up your Pokémon while you're in Castelia since you can fight it over and over with a healer right nearby.
Also, OP, Drilbur has one L. Munna has two Ns, not two Us.
And, unlike in the competitive metagame, nobody's stopping you from using your favorites effectively. Thanks to Audino, you definitely can raise your favorite Pokémon until it has a chance.
I'd actually say that in-game, Victini is outclassed by Darumaka, and even using it as a special attacker is redundant with Darumaka, unlike the later, better, Litwick. However, it is good for training up your Pokémon while you're in Castelia since you can fight it over and over with a healer right nearby.
Also, OP, Drilbur has one L. Munna has two Ns, not two Us.
And, unlike in the competitive metagame, nobody's stopping you from using your favorites effectively. Thanks to Audino, you definitely can raise your favorite Pokémon until it has a chance.
Healing potions exist until then, unless you're anal-retentive about saving money.
Quickie suggestion - include a tiny blurb underneath or next to the Pokemon on the tier list explaining certain things about the Pokemon and how to use them, like when to evolve Pansage or when to ditch Stoutland, or what their stats are like, or what TMs to teach them. Might be easier for people to look at something like that than to have to search the entire thread, though I can understand if they'd be a pain to write.
I just noticed that Roggenrola w/trading isn't listed. I'd say it's High- starts good, gets REALLY good when it evolves, (Base 135 Attack. Rock Blast. At a point when the strongest thing you're FIGHTING is Emolga.) but dwindles around the Elite Four as it gets outsped and 2HKO'd by everything. Still, Gigalith can carry you through a large chunk of the game almost on its own.
If we split into Upper Mid/Lower Mid, though, I'd move it and Lillipup there; both dwindle later on.
If we split into Upper Mid/Lower Mid, though, I'd move it and Lillipup there; both dwindle later on.
What does Klink have in its benefit? A steel type; Excadrill and Cobalion have that. A boosting move; Excadrill, Lilligant, Samurott, and a LOT more have that. A decent set of defenses; Reuniclus has that (I'm just using that as an example, I'm not saying Reuniclus is particularly good). Sure, it has the steel type to beat the last three gyms, but Joltik is better for Skyla, and Cobalion is better for Brycen and Drayden/Iris. So Klink doesn't have much in its benefit. What are its cons? A barren as hell movepool, (you have a moveset of Gear Saucer/Gear Grind/Discharge/Return. Horrible coverage, and Discharge comes from its measly SPECIAL ATTACK) a late arrival, (Joltik has that, but it is useful right when you get it and is useful for the rest of the game. Joltik's situation is just like Sigilyph, but a bit later.) and bad attacking stats (Joltik and Petilil's stats aren't fantastic, but for both you can EASILY boost and Petilil you can have a Modest with 20/20/20/31/20/20 IV's. Phenomenal.) Klink doesn't really have any benefits, mostly disadvantages in fact. A Pokemon like that shouldn't be in high.
...So.. that makes them event Pokemon right? I'm not understanding what you're saying. Entei / Raikou / Suicune are event Pokemon. Therefore, Zoroark is an Event Pokemon because it requires another event in order to get it and transfer the Pokemon and... you get the point. No I'm not tiering Zorua / Zoroark nor am I tiering Victini. Dropping the subject.
As for using the outclassed argument, the person wanted Kling at High. If Kling were to go to High, if anything it should attempt to check itself over Cobalion first which technically is like Kling+. It arrives a little later but comes at a better level, a better movepool, and can learn a TM here and there (hell it learns Volt Change. Interesting isn't it?). That's what I meant by the outclass argument at least there. Obviously I'd encourage NOT to use the "outclass" argument as much as possible.
As for splitting the tiers into 5 star system, it pretty much is taking the tier names and replacing them with stars. Nothing very interesting.
After looking at Ducklett a bit more... I might agree with you on that. My main annoyance is Pidove doesn't have a lot going for it. If anything it is pretty shafted. I guess to be fair Fly is a little earlier than Aerial Ace and what not. ...I'll put Pidove in Mid for now, but if someone can argue it into Low I probably am not going to hesitate.
Minccino will be moved to Mid for now. I won't disagree with that move. Let's look at this:
I... will confess that I question Petilil like IOS is. And I think the main thing that stops me is it's a bit reliant on some setup. Sleep Powder at least holds some utility for capturing Pokemon and what not. Though it looks notoriously slow at the beginning. 30 base Speed? I guess Timburr is only slightly faster but it has a bit more bulk than Petilil. Hm...
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I agree, Petilil should be in High tier. While lack of auxiliary coverage moves hurts it a bit against Dragon gym, etc., she has a lot of utility even against Pokémon that resist it, because of her power and ability to set up Quiver Dance after Sleep Powdering. People who have not used her generally complain about her lacking good coverage which is her biggest flaw and one I'm not going to deny, but I believe everything else about her augments that and makes her one of the most useful Grass-types ingame. You get her early and in Black you get a great ingame trade for her, in White you can of course catch one yourself early on, either way you get her around Nacrene City (2nd gym city). Even though her circumstances would seem inopportune with Bugs (Forest and Castelia Gym), I found her easy to train because of Sleep Powder and Leech Seed / Mega Drain recovery. Later on she hit like a truck, I think we all know Quiver Dance + Petal Dance is destructive. The only Pokémon you'll have trouble with other than Dragon Dancing Dragons (Sleep Powder them then switch anyway) are the Sap Sippers, like Raikaria pointed out, and you don't face very many Deerling.
I'll tell you what. I'll put Petilil to Top. For now. I kind of agree with IOS since Grass is absolutely shitty coverage. But I do want a serious test with it myself. Or IOS. Whichever. Meh, I'll do it. At least Sleep Powder is good utility.
I haven't heard many good things about Munna from a player that drafted it. If anything there wasn't a single positive comment about it. Not raising it yet.
I'm going to wait on Lillipup just a bit longer. I kind of want to see how well it does with the person that's using it in a draft playthrough.
Finally I forgot about Throh. Yeah, I'll throw him to High too.
So changes that are being made:
- Petilil to High
- Throh to High
- Minccino to Mid
- Pidove to Mid
- Munna instead of Muuna
- Drilbur instead of Drillbur
I will wait for last minute objections.
Eviolite increases the actual defensive stats, not the Base ones.
Shift Gear comes at lv52 for Klang, Autotomize only doubles Speed, Gear Grind is good but it's its only move, really.
Klinklang should be Mid and that's it; Gear Grind being a Meteor Mash clone is nice, specially when you resist half the game, but 55 Base Attack for 11 levels and then another 11 levels of mediocrity and then five levels until Shift Gear is just too much, specially when your coverage moves are Return, Rock Smash and Volt Switch/T-Bolt coming off a pathetic Base Sp. Attack (unless you spam Charge Beam)...
103/60/86/60/86/50 stats when the rest of the game is, huh, 45/55/39/35/39/42.
Please, enlighten me. She may suck a lot, but not enough for Basement. Besides, why is Alomomola Basement again...?
Well, I assumed setup wasn't a problem since it's not particularly time consuming and you don't even need to set up against everything, but fair enough. Sounds good, you should give it a go. I just honestly feel it's a cut above the likes of Ducklett, Emolga, etc., though that may just be the gap between Lower Mid and high Upper Mid.
shame that deino is only obtained at the end.. he would have destroyed everything.
then again, being the hardest pokemon to fully evolve in the history of pokemon, it may not have been all that useful anyway...
I do find it somewhat useful post-game, however.
then again, being the hardest pokemon to fully evolve in the history of pokemon, it may not have been all that useful anyway...
I do find it somewhat useful post-game, however.
I like the changes. Except Pidove. Pidove sucks. Its first viable move is Quick Attack, and the next one is arguable Roost or Detect, and the third is by the SIXTH GYM. It gets terrible coverage and mediocre stats. Sure, it comes early, but gets no benefits from this. It is Low imo. Also why is Ducklett so bad?
My guess is that while Ducklett and Swanna have good neutral offensive coverage through their level up moves alone, Ducklett has Bidoof-level offenses and "meh" Speed to use those moves.
It does get Air Cutter at Lv. 15 and can get some EXP on those Bugs, I guess, if you really want to baby it. But, yeah, all of its good assets are ruined by something, imo:
Ducklett has the opposite problem imo. Good moves, mediocre damage output. It gets good special STABs early on but all of its stats (defensive and offensive) are just so bleh... But it's soooooo cute~
- It comes early. Too bad it also gets no good moves to capitalise on that and get some EVs with!
- Unfezant has base 105 Attack. Oh, here's that movepool issue again; the first physical Flying move it gets is Fly, the other one is Sky Attack well into the 60s (so postgame). Well, it has two STABs, even if the other is Normal... oh, it doesn't get Façade until 55. All the decent STABs it gets are special and it has base 65 Special Attack when fully evolved. Coverage wouldn't be an issue with something like Lilligant, which is powerful and has ways of augmenting the fact its STAB is bad, but it's an issue with Pidove line because it hasn't even got a decent STAB except Quick Attack, which is sufficient very early on but the power gap is noticeable after that.
- It learns HM Fly. That, in fact, is my only use for Pidove, and you don't need Fly to progress since Unova is very linear. You only really want Fly once in the whole game (leaving Icirrus to go to Relic Castle). It's not the only Flying-type in the game either; it's a waste of a slot while it's in your party since it can't pull its weight.
- It gets Roost. Roost is undeniably nice, especially with reasonable Speed backing it up, but again, it's just gonna sit there and do nothing, and it's not particularly sturdy with few resists and that weak SpDef.
Ducklett has the opposite problem imo. Good moves, mediocre damage output. It gets good special STABs early on but all of its stats (defensive and offensive) are just so bleh... But it's soooooo cute~
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