In this metagame with ScarfChomp, Latios, Thundurus, and all manner of other extremely fast threats, SD Garchomp is far from the unbeatable powerhouse it once was. And when it only has a 20% chance of getting an unfair boost, I don't see how that could possibly be construed as broken
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
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I neither said SD Garchomp was unbeatable nor that Sand Veil Garchomp was broken. What I said is that a free turn can cause you to lose your chance to beat SD Garchomp, and that Sand Veil Garchomp is a significant problem that violates Evasion Clause.
And it would be false to say that it only has a 20% chance of getting a free turn. If Garchomp is attacked multiple times, it has multiple chances to activate Sand Veil, and it can force that to happen by using Substitute.
I wouldn't call it a significant problem...only you and a few others are complaining so much about Sand Veil Chomp.(And only him, not about Cacturne or other Sand Veil/Snow Cloak users)
Garchomp has a 4% chance of getting 2 misses in a row, and it is thus very unlikely that it will get two free turns when they really matter. Garchmop can't win a game after 1 free turn, and Sand Veil is thus not broken, especially as it is such a low chance
The post Mence metagame was way more fun than this right now, IMO. It's not that diverse really, lots of teams are basically the same as all the others, whereas in the post Mence metagame there were lots of different combinations, more Pokemon being used and it was in general a lot more fun. People didn't need to rely on so many steels and dragons like this again.
Like someone else said, I'm just waiting for the tiers to come out so I can go to UU (which looks like it'll be quite like Gen 4 OU with guys like Azelf and Suicune there) because the current OU game bores me.
Many sweepers have the potential to win a game with one more free turn than the opponent would normally allow them to have. Garchomp is one such Pokemon.
20% is not a low chance, and as I have said over and over again, brokenness is not the issue here.
maybe because i dont like seeing garchomp banned over 20%
its a gay ability but having garchomp still in ou is worth it
Well, then, it doesn't need to be banned. That saves us a lot of time.
EDIT:Yes, XienZo, and I oppose that ban as well.
OHKO moves aren't anywhere near broken either, fyi...
Edit:
It does have a 36% chance of getting 1 miss in 2 turns though. Might not be broken, but that's not the issue.
Sand Veil doesn't let something as piss weak as Smeargle OHKO something as bulky at Eviolite Dusclops in a single lucky turn.
Sand Veil doesn't give your opponent an average of more than 2 free turns for every successful KO.
OHKOs were never anywhere near broken. They were, IIRC, banned for making the game too luck-based. Whether that's justified is another matter entirely(particularly when crits and other % stuff are endured all of the time), but it certainly wasn't banned due to being broken.
Sand veil is only troublesome on garchomp and that's because garchomp is a good pokemon with or without it. Luvdisc is not a threatening swift swimmer under rain, yet the drizzle and swift swim combo ban still exist. If and only IF (since I personally don't believe that it is) sand veil were to be found detrimental to a competitive metagame on garchomp, then it would have to be banned on him.
Cacturne, Dugtrio, Donphan, and non dreamworld Sandslash are not going to be sweeping any teams. Garchomp can. When Garchomp kills something and then my latios dragon pulse misses it when I tried to revenge, how was I outplayed? When Garchomp sweeps through the rest of my team after that, how exactly was it my fault that my guarenteed check just missed thanks to a haxy ability? Or should I have dedicated multiple team slots to pokemon who can simultaneously take on garchomp AND the numerous threats in the metagame at the moment?
I can sort of see where people are coming from when they say they want to get rid of sand veil.
Cacturne, Dugtrio, Donphan, and non dreamworld Sandslash are not going to be sweeping any teams. Garchomp can. When Garchomp kills something and then my latios dragon pulse misses it when I tried to revenge, how was I outplayed? When Garchomp sweeps through the rest of my team after that, how exactly was it my fault that my guarenteed check just missed thanks to a haxy ability? Or should I have dedicated multiple team slots to pokemon who can simultaneously take on garchomp AND the numerous threats in the metagame at the moment?
I can sort of see where people are coming from when they say they want to get rid of sand veil.
OHKOs also remove any concept of countering from the game. Sorry HP Ice Levitate Bronzong, but you now have a 49% chance of losing to Guillotine Gliscor instead of being a hard counter. Sorry Lv 100 Giratina, but you're not a reliable counter to Lv 5 Shellos thanks to Fissure. If you're faster than the switchin, you have a 49% chance of OHKOing it without trying. That chance only increases when you add things like Focus Sash/Evasion modifiers/Defense boosts that can give you free turns to attack. The ban on OHKOs isn't just about the luck factor, they remove strategic aspects of the game that many users feel are beneficial.
Well yeah, that too, although that aspect occurs as a result of OHKO's 30% counter-nullify chance.
And just FYI, OHKOs fail on higher-leveled pokemon, but I get your point.
Anyway, yeah, all of that applies to Sand Veil as well, obviously.
Banning Sand Veil + Sand Stream would allow Garchomp to remain OU while fixing the problem.
Broken things are not the only things that are banned, as evidenced by the existence of Evasion Clause and OHKO Clause. Sand Veil + Sand Stream should fall under the former.
So yes, it does need to be banned. Don't make arguments you know to be false.
Are we back to THIS again already? Thorhammer, have you not realized that you are the sole member of your minority that believes Sand Veil and Snow Cloak should be banned, or at least the only member who cares enough to keep bringing it up over and over again only to be rejected each time? I really don't get it. Do you think that if you ask enough, people will see the light and flock to your side? I don't think that's going to happen.
As for the actual issue at hand, Alphatron summarized it beautifully. Allow me to expand on this. There is only one Pokemon with Sand Veil (or Snow Cloak) we have ever had a problem with, and its name is Garchomp. We have another OU Pokemon with Sand Veil; its name is Gliscor. We have seen that Gliscor users prefer to use Poison Heal over Sand Veil. This means that Sand Veil is not inherently more powerful than Poison Heal. Therefore, since there is only one Pokemon who is problematic with Sand Veil, and another OU Pokemon is weaker with Sand Veil than with a different ability, we can conclude that the Pokemon is broken, not the ability. Your argument is like saying that Pressure is broken because Deoxys-A is uber.
About banning things that aren't broken: the only time it is acceptable to ban things that are not broken is if they provide nothing to the metagame. OHKO moves and evasion moves are not broken, but provide nothing to the metagame. Your proposed Sand Veil+Sand Stream ban DOES detract from the metagame (removes the possibility of using the extremely strong options of Garchomp and SR Gliscor on Sand teams), and thus is unacceptable. It is differentiated from Aldaron's Proposal because that was designed to ban something that WAS broken.
As for the actual issue at hand, Alphatron summarized it beautifully. Allow me to expand on this. There is only one Pokemon with Sand Veil (or Snow Cloak) we have ever had a problem with, and its name is Garchomp. We have another OU Pokemon with Sand Veil; its name is Gliscor. We have seen that Gliscor users prefer to use Poison Heal over Sand Veil. This means that Sand Veil is not inherently more powerful than Poison Heal. Therefore, since there is only one Pokemon who is problematic with Sand Veil, and another OU Pokemon is weaker with Sand Veil than with a different ability, we can conclude that the Pokemon is broken, not the ability. Your argument is like saying that Pressure is broken because Deoxys-A is uber.
About banning things that aren't broken: the only time it is acceptable to ban things that are not broken is if they provide nothing to the metagame. OHKO moves and evasion moves are not broken, but provide nothing to the metagame. Your proposed Sand Veil+Sand Stream ban DOES detract from the metagame (removes the possibility of using the extremely strong options of Garchomp and SR Gliscor on Sand teams), and thus is unacceptable. It is differentiated from Aldaron's Proposal because that was designed to ban something that WAS broken.
Uh, what about the restriction that we can't use any evasion/OHKO abusing movesets, like Mind Reader/Sheer Cold Articuno?
Your argument, stating that if poison heal is used over sand veil more often than not means that sand veil is not inherently better than poison heal is and can not be broken unless poison heal is, is flawed. Following your logic, a pokemon would need 100% or near 100% usage to be broken (or at the very least >50%, if people prefer to use another pokemon more often then not, then it is obviously not more powerful), but there has been a pokemon banned without even being the top 10! (Wobbuffet last gen). If double team was unbanned, I'm sure most pokemon wouldn't run it. It's not as reliable, but when it activates, it is sure as hell a lot better, and it has a high enough chance to be abused if wished (Sub Chomp. And I may try out a sand veil BP gliscor just for the purpose of this argument).
Also, Gliscor has Hyper cutter and so therefore could still run SR/Roost. It is irrelevant if it restricts movepool anyway. Say if Gamefreak released an event DW Shell Smash Octillery. Banning inconsistent would mean banning Shell Smash on Octillery, but what matters here is whether or not inconsistent is broken, not that it limits Octillery in other ways as well. And if you want to complain that inconsistent is "more broken", say that they somehow locked moves and made a Double Team/Shell Smash/Dragon Claw/Earthquake Garchomp with Mold Breaker (hypothetically, we know that this one will never happen).
Your logic here is flawed, although I agree with what you're saying. Wonder Guard isn't broken on Shedinja, but it is on Spiritomb.
But I don't see why people want Sand Veil of all things banned when this is a metagame purely based around weather and changing weather. If Garchomp gets a free turn, then that sucks, but it isn't the end of the world even if it SD's. If it runs Sub over Fire Blast, then it has hard counters in Ground-immune Steels. I've had a Hydra-Rest Lapras hit Sheer cold 3/4 times on me and that doesn't make Lapras Broken.
What we should be worrying about IMO is Latios, Drought, Drizzle, and Sand Throw.
Edit: I'm not the only player with a Blaziken problem it appears, so that deserves a mention too.
BROKENNESS IS ALWAYS THE ISSUE FOR SUSPECTS! I apologize for the caps, but I feel that if any section of my post be read, it be that one. The point of the suspect test is not to make the least luck-oriented metagame. Please everyone read the characteristics of a desirable pokemon metagame. We cannot allow ourselves to deviate too far from the game mechanics (ie. banning abilities) when they do not make the metagame either overcentralized or are broken. Luck is an important factor in pokemon battles, and unless it is game-breaking, we have no right nor adequate reason to ban it. If I had it my way, pokemon would not have critical hits, parahax, confusion, or percent chances of moves. Yet we choose to play this game, for this is, in fact, a competitive POKEMON community. If you want to create a community about a new game you create that has none of these faults, go make it, but we cannot deviate so far from the way the games are made just for a lesser amount of minor hax in the metagame.
I myself have been having huge problems with Sub SD Garchomp lately. It can honestly be rediculous at times. He can set up and break through your Vaporeon with Ice Beam, and easily dodge my Latias's Draco Meteor for revenge killing it. There is some consolation in the fact the Bronzong/Skarmory hard counter that particular set though. It didn't win the manliest pokemon award for no reason- its very fast, very bulky, and when your attack misses he can plow right through your weakened team. Because of its hard counters to the hax abuse set, and the fact that the normal SD needs Outrage to break through all of its counters I say KEEP IT IN OU!
On the subject of weather, I think GameFreak took it too far. You play one weather team, then the next has at least 3 in common with that one. On top of that, there are clear favorites. If any of you have battled Kevin Garrett's Sun team, which I won't reveal, I believe he has already found the "perfect" combination for Sun abuse. I love some of the rain teams ive seen, because they vary from stall-offense, but Sandstorm is the most annoying thing ever. Its the same Mixtar 98% of the time, CB Tar 1% and Hippowdon the other 1%. I wonder what else well find in a cookie cutter sand team, we'll certainly find the same Excadrill. There is Hail, but NO ONE uses it so I cant discuss it much. I try to play balanced, which holds up fine in most situations, but without Heatran you just get instantly destroyed by a well made Sun Team. Blaziken/Venusaur and occasionally Volcarona are nightmares to face. You really do need weather to beat the first two. Blaziken I truly consider broken at this point. It is disgustingly overpowered, as many have said, here's some reasons why-
Blaziken's FB in the sun makes Draco Meteor users like Latios look like wussies, not even matching the initial power and dropping continually from there. It is also 100% uncounterable. Slowbro gets 2HKoed by it and there is no way to gain an advantage by switching in on it. 130 BP Hi Jump Kick? Hippo gets OHKOed after a Swords Dance. If you rely on priority to "check" it, you're getting something Barbecued first. You have to have full health Slowbro/Hippowdon/Cresselia or Scarf Politoed/Tyranitar/Abomasnow switch in at the same time it does if you want to beat it one on one. Even then, Venusaur/Volcarona will take the oppurtunity for the kill right away if your counter isn't beaten due to Protect. Actually, nevermind the scarfers. Speed boost activates immadiately and dooms them.
Overall I am still very happy with this game, Sun needs work, maybe we need to do something about Blaziken, because he destroys non weather teams completely. The other big two are reasonably counter-able. The metagame is very balanced, you just need to prepare for other dominant strategies with your own, there are still plenty of unknown combinations and sets waiting for the light.
On the subject of weather, I think GameFreak took it too far. You play one weather team, then the next has at least 3 in common with that one. On top of that, there are clear favorites. If any of you have battled Kevin Garrett's Sun team, which I won't reveal, I believe he has already found the "perfect" combination for Sun abuse. I love some of the rain teams ive seen, because they vary from stall-offense, but Sandstorm is the most annoying thing ever. Its the same Mixtar 98% of the time, CB Tar 1% and Hippowdon the other 1%. I wonder what else well find in a cookie cutter sand team, we'll certainly find the same Excadrill. There is Hail, but NO ONE uses it so I cant discuss it much. I try to play balanced, which holds up fine in most situations, but without Heatran you just get instantly destroyed by a well made Sun Team. Blaziken/Venusaur and occasionally Volcarona are nightmares to face. You really do need weather to beat the first two. Blaziken I truly consider broken at this point. It is disgustingly overpowered, as many have said, here's some reasons why-
Blaziken's FB in the sun makes Draco Meteor users like Latios look like wussies, not even matching the initial power and dropping continually from there. It is also 100% uncounterable. Slowbro gets 2HKoed by it and there is no way to gain an advantage by switching in on it. 130 BP Hi Jump Kick? Hippo gets OHKOed after a Swords Dance. If you rely on priority to "check" it, you're getting something Barbecued first. You have to have full health Slowbro/Hippowdon/Cresselia or Scarf Politoed/Tyranitar/Abomasnow switch in at the same time it does if you want to beat it one on one. Even then, Venusaur/Volcarona will take the oppurtunity for the kill right away if your counter isn't beaten due to Protect. Actually, nevermind the scarfers. Speed boost activates immadiately and dooms them.
Overall I am still very happy with this game, Sun needs work, maybe we need to do something about Blaziken, because he destroys non weather teams completely. The other big two are reasonably counter-able. The metagame is very balanced, you just need to prepare for other dominant strategies with your own, there are still plenty of unknown combinations and sets waiting for the light.
OHKO moves are broken. I have argued this before extensively, I might add, in the round 2 thread, but I am willing to outline my case again if you have an interest in knowing why I feel the way I do. as for evasion moves, I would still advocate that the luck they bring to the game is far too great to be allowed.
To explain my ideas on luck, as it may seem like I have contradicted myself in these last two posts I would define my accepted level of luck being that if the probability of being able to attack is at least 40% or more, the luck involved is largely acceptable.
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