In-Game Tier List Discussion

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kaonohiokala said:
I'd place Drilbur over Sandile for Top. I've been playing through with a Sandile(and evolutions) as a standard part of my team and I gotta say, I'm fairly disappointed. Its typing and defenses leave it to take heavy damage and is often KO'd. His evolution times are poor as well, and his performances will be lacking often, especially when nearing its next evolution level. On the offensive side, he's a bit disappointing as well, not being able to OHKO certain threats when he should. With that being said, Drilbur should go above Sandile, for earlier access to its final form, better defensive typing, and better offenses.
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I'm gonna have to go with IOS on this one.

I gave my Sandile the Eviolite until it evolved into Krookodile and with Moxie it had AMAZING sweeping potential. It literally soloed Cheren for Every Single battle. Not that Cheren is that much of a threat, but still.
 
Can someone explain to me why Elgyem is mid tier?

I trained one to the E4, but it was a major pain in the ass, and hardly an efficient party member at all.

Way too slow, not nearly bulky enough to cover for it's speed. Crappy moveset, and the good TM's come pretty late.

The thing is, with an abundance on dark and bug types, a slow psychic type really isn't all that great. It takes way too much damage from fighting types to justify it's use. Also there are few poison types to use it against. Basically for me the thing was a potion dump. Even though it can boost it's great Sp. Att with charge beam, it's too easily killed because of it's speed.
I like it's design, but it was a horrible pokemon to me. All I wanted it for was TR abuse, but no such thing in the main game :s

My escavalier was also slow as heck, but with it's great typing and defenses it was justified, and a rocky helmet is actually great on that one.
 
Vratix said:
I'm gonna have to go with IOS on this one.

I gave my Sandile the Eviolite until it evolved into Krookodile and with Moxie it had AMAZING sweeping potential. It literally soloed Cheren for Every Single battle. Not that Cheren is that much of a threat, but still.
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I played through white with drilbur/excadrill and black with sandile, and I personally thought excadrill was way better. Even besides his raw power, he can be used defensively as well because of his multiple resistances. Definitely one of my favorite in game pokemon ever, up there with hg/ss scyther

Although my sandile had intimidate not moxie, so maybe that's why.
 
ScizorMeTimbers said:
I played through white with drilbur/excadrill and black with sandile, and I personally thought excadrill was way better. Even besides his raw power, he can be used defensively as well because of his multiple resistances. Definitely one of my favorite in game pokemon ever, up there with hg/ss scyther

Although my sandile had intimidate not moxie, so maybe that's why.
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I dunno, I'm around halfway through White (just beat the 5th gym and went through Chargestone Cave) and my Sandile's pretty beastly. He's my best guy so far (though he's also the highest leveled, only by a few levels though). I haven't used Drillbur yet though. I just caught one but I wanna use my Sandile instead.
 
Moxie > Intimidate in game. A Moxie Krookodile can and will sweep 2 of the 4 E4 members with ease (both rounds), and if he can squeeze himself in against other trainers, he can easily sweep them too.
Typing ain't all that though, although STAB Earthquake ain't a bad thing.
 
Lou Cypher said:
Moxie > Intimidate in game. A Moxie Krookodile can and will sweep 2 of the 4 E4 members with ease (both rounds), and if he can squeeze himself in against other trainers, he can easily sweep them too.
Typing ain't all that though, although STAB Earthquake ain't a bad thing.
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Yeah i figured, but both pokemon i've used in game with access to moxie(scraggy and sandile) had their other options for abilities. But Excadrill doesn't have much of a problem sweeping himself with swords dance. I've beat all 5 members of the elite 4, and cynthia with just exca
 
Well, in Sandile's case, its not hard to look around for a Sandile that doesn't intimidate you. Scraggy's a bit harder, but he has some more troubles making Moxie work anyway given his middling speed, whereas the Krook's is averagely high.
 
Also, there was a lot of hate on Foongus and Amoongus earlier in the thread.
I've been using one in white and it's not too bad at all. Now, don't get me wrong I wouldn't put it at "HIGH" tier but I definitely think mid or so would fit, definitely better than Elgyem (Shotoetoe is absolutely correct. That thing blows).

Granted, as a Foongus is low speed was rather annoying with it so-so SpA but once it evolved it started really pulling its weight. Not even super effective hits will do have and it OHKOs pretty much everything not steel with Giga Drain (except Excadrill, it can one-hit those) or Sludge Bomb.
 
Durant is the only good late-game addition you can have to your team though. Extremely helpful against Psychic- and Dark- e4 members, also outpaces and disposes of Hydreigon with X-Scizzor (which is very important if your Fighting-type cannot take it on). With his high defense, he's also ok against Marshal, and can take on mano-a-mano Bouffalant, Archeops, Klinklang and Carracosta in a pinch.
 
Shotoetoe said:
Joke or not, nature power really makes them a pain in the ass.
My pokemon always seem to fall asleep, then round after round of immobilisation because of love. Aargh!
Much better once they learn heal beam. And the annoying refresh is gone from their moveset, so poison, burn, leech seed... will eventually wear em down :p
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I know! Especially since you can't just walk into any Pokemon Center and just buy items that'll cure this for you, or make sure you've got a Fighting Pokemon before walking into shaking grass.
 
Breludicolo said:
Although I'm not saying that it's bad in any sense, no matter how much it rapes everything else, it still goes down in rank due to its lateness of obtaining. High Mid would be good IMO.
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Lateness is not an issue since Cobalion comes at a high level (42) that should be even with your team by that point. Otherwise things like Zapdos in FR/LG and Azelf in DPPt would be Mid for lateness as well.

It also really does destroy everything. Regular trainers usually don't fare well against legends lol, so lets look at major battles:

Ice Gym: lol

Dragon Gym: Dragon resist + High Defense = gg

Cheren: first Pokemon is set-up fodder

Bianca: same

ELITE FOUR: You should be Lvl 50 by this point so we can assume you have Swords Dance + both STAB moves (Sacred Sword and Iron Head)

Shauntal: admittedly not good since Cofagrigus can burn you, Jellicent walls you, and Chandelure/Golurk have SE attacks.

Grimsley: lol

Caitlin: You can take one hit from anyone but Reuniclus (Focus Blast), sey up an SD, and sweep.

Marshal: I dbout Throh can OHKO, but not really worth the risk unless you have X Defends.

N: Reshiram (in white) is the only Pokemon that can OHKO you. You can set up on Klinklang, Carracosta, and Vanilluxe and OHKO everyone else.

Ghetsis: You can come in safely on Cofagrigus since it will usually try to Toxic your Dragon (Reshiram/Zekrom). You can easily set up and OHKO everything from there.

So, that's 8 of the 10 last major fights that Cobalion utterly wrecks life, not to mention the hordes of Team Plasma grunts in the Dragonspiral Tower/Relic Castle who use mainly Normal and Dark types. There is really no good reason to keep Cobalion from High tier.

I agree with the rest of the list though, for the most part.
 
i'll have to agree with Fireburn on this one...
when i had access to cobalion only two of the 5 members were higher leveled than him, and those were the starter at lvl.44 and scrafty at lvl.43...
also cobalion completely rapes the game from the time you get him...
the only problem i can think of is that cobalion comes a little late and could have been helpful in earlier game...
 
"Lateness" shouldn't be a major factor when the pokemon in question comes in higher (in my case at least) level than the rest of one's team, with amazing stats, high BP dual STABs and good typing. However, the main problem when using Cobalion comes from the fact that his attack is horrible, meaning that, sometimes, even when he hits for supereffective damage, he won't be able to OHKO the opponent, which should be a given for high tier pokemon. Beartic can survive a Sacred Sword and Swagger you, for example. His special defense is also pretty bad, so he gets dented very hard by even not very effective Ice Beams and whatnot. Also...
Fireburn said:
So, that's 8 of the 10 last major fights that Cobalion utterly wrecks life, not to mention the hordes of Team Plasma grunts in the Dragonspiral Tower/Relic Castle who use mainly Normal and Dark types.
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The same argument was made a few pages ago for Klink. KLINK. *Any* Steel-type does just as good against the opponents you listed (Curse Ferroseed and Pawniard, for instance), while one's in-game team should be able to deal with the e4 anyways. All you need is a Dark-, a Fighting-, and a Flying- type to do that, for which types there were excellent choices since b4 the 4th Gym (Sandile/ Sawk/ Archeops for example).

Also DPPt Azelf wasn't high tier.
 
Why the heck is Thunderus a whole tier above Tornadus, when they both have very similar movepools, the same stats, the same abilities and the same availability? The only difference that they really have is that Thunderus gets Electric moves, (which are admittedly quite useful, but come at the price of losing the best Flying STAB, which Tornadus does have) However, I think both should be in Low, because:

They're roamers. This alone should put them both in Low, but not only are they roamers, they're roamers which come just before the 8th gym at the EARLIEST, which makes them absolute garbage tier in terms of availability.

Their starting moves are piss poor. I ain't just talking about Tornadus and his Air Cutter at level 40 garbage, I'm also talking about Thunderus' Shock Wave at the same time. For the time you get them, they have terrible moves and have to rely on either TMs or grinding to get to their best moves. (Even then, Tornadus actually has an edge, since you can just teach it Acrobatics and watch it own, whilst Thunderus requires a Surf Detour to get Thunderbolt, since it can't even learn Acrobatics...)


Neither are of particular merit in any of the Boss Battles. Take a look below:
Drayden/Iris: Electric is NVE against Dragon and Flying is neutral. Even then, Tornadus' attacks won't OHKO the Leaders Pokes anyways and Haxorus could deal massive damage to it.
Shauntal: Both have a sort of an advantage here. They learn Crunch at level 49 and this coupled with base 115 Attack means they can do a number on Shauntals Pokes. Cofagrigus gives them trouble though due to Will O Wisp.
Marshall: Tornadus has a pseudo-advantage, due to having a superpowered Acrobatics attack to spam against Marshalls Pokes. Both must be very wary of Stone Edge though, and Thunderus loses if it can't OHKO stuff with Discharge/TB. (Fly is... pretty bad)
Caitlin: Same case as Shauntal, only I think Thunderus may be better here due to Gothitelle having TB. Pokes are fairly bulky though and Sigilyph has Ice Beam, so neither are particularly useful.
Grimsley: Thunderus can't do shit against Krookodile, Tornadus struggles more with Bisharp unless it keeps Revenge. Fairly equal ground.
N: Thunderus beats Archeops and Carracosta and fares better against Klingklang. Zoroark is beaten by both, both lose to Zekrom (on White) and Vanilluxe, and have difficulty surviving Reshirams powerful attacks.
Ghetsis: Neither are particularly useful in this battle.

As you can see, Thunderus' Electric typing doesn't really contribute much ingame outside of giving it some STAB and dispatching some Pokes.

Overall though, I just think Thunderus should be slam dunked down a tier, simply because it's a roamer and that the Electric type which I assume made the OP think it's Mid doesn't actually contribute much ingame. Tornadus performs just as well (arguably better overall), so I didn't see any reason why Thunderus was a tier above, that's all.

/rantover
 
Actually, I'm fairly certain you can't get the roaming Flyer until AFTER Opelucid Gym, meaning its availibility is similar to that of Rufflet/Vullaby, Durant, Deinto, Heatmor, etc.
 
Both roamers should be bottom tier in my opinion. They come right at the end of the game, have meh movepools at first, and don't do especially well against any of the E4 or the other two (unless you can OHKO all the fighting-types, you're going to be eating a Stone Edge).
 
Can we also have a discussion about Pokemon in tiers based on their abilities?

I just did a speed run using all the top tier Pokemon. The debate right now in this thread is about Sandile. My Sandile was boss, literally tore everything up but I made sure that I got a Moxie one. It took me a few tries to get one with Moxie and a +/neutral Atk Ability. I knew that Moxie was going to be key to using him and I was right

On the other hand I used Scraggy and decided to not use Moxie (mostly because I got an Adament Shed Sked one on my first catch). I was only mildly impressed with him. He was strong, but he wasn't sweeping as much as he probably would have been if he had Moxie (and considering he just isn't fast at all). I think a lot of the Pokemon's tiering really depends on what kind of ability they have and maybe we need to include a small side note?
 
Could I play devil's advocate and say that Moxie isn't the superawesomeamazingness people are making it out to be?

Earlier on in the game, Moxie is probably a beastlier ability. You'll probably be raising less Pokemon, so it'll be important to have something with enough Attack power to plow through 'mons who may have a type advantage and STAB, especially because many trainers will simply use multiples of the same Pokemon (ie a Parasol Lady w/ 3 Tympoles, a Fisherman with 4 Basculin, etc). Granted, it won't occur often, but it will be a nice way to collect some extra Exp. without switching every few Trainers.

Later in the game, however, trends will occur in the opposition's teams that make Moxie less useful. The opponents will still use 2-3 Pokemon on their teams, meaning it will be no easier to collect boosts. More often, the opponent will carry Pokemon of multiple types, meaning it's more likely they'll be able to counter you. Given the slowness of Sandile and Scraggy and their abundant weaknesses (well, Sandile's abundant weaknesses), they may end up being KO'd before they can fully utilize their 150% Attack. Meanwhile, the player has probably completed most of their team this late in the game, and doesn't need to rely on their powered-up Krokorok/Scraggy (Scrafty?) to defeat opponents, as they can simply trump types. In the Gym battles, where they can battle opponents of the same type, they simply lack the speed or coverage to sweep the leaders, even if they can defeat their first Pokemon. Elesa's Emolgas cannot be hit by Sandile's Ground attacks and can Aerial Ace Scraggy, Clay might be sweepable (if you can outrun Excadrill), Skyla is faster and resistant to Ground and Fighting, kills with Water/Flying, Brycen is LOL ICE, and Iris/Drayden is... Dragon. I guess it could work if you're not Dragon Tailed.

So, yeah. Just my two sense.
 
Its sorta conveint that you left out the Elite 4 part of the game. Krook gets a +1 off of Renicu (who nailed me with a Focus Blast and I survived with about 1/4th btw) and then precedes to run through the entire rest of the team. Same story for the Ghost E4; in fact more so in that they didn't even get an opportunity to even hit me. That is huggggeee. One Pokemon that single handily defeats 2 Elite 4s due to its ability? Yes please. Plus, would you rather have Intimidate, which is a good ability, on a non-defensive mon?

As to address your other point... so what you can't use him against certain gyms. Thats why you have 3-4 other mons that take those gyms. That is a silly argument to say that his ability can't be used on those gyms. He has a terrible matchup. The ability is helpful right when you get him, is ok during the middle part of the game, and tremendously helpful in the end.


I'm just addressing Sandile here because thats all I really have experience with. Scraggy was to slow (- Nature) and had Shed Skin which did jack shit. Woulda loved Moxie but oh well. Maybe next run through
 
matty said:
Its sorta conveint that you left out the Elite 4 part of the game. Krook gets a +1 off of Renicu (who nailed me with a Focus Blast and I survived with about 1/4th btw) and then precedes to run through the entire rest of the team. Same story for the Ghost E4; in fact more so in that they didn't even get an opportunity to even hit me. That is huggggeee. One Pokemon that single handily defeats 2 Elite 4s due to its ability? Yes please. Plus, would you rather have Intimidate, which is a good ability, on a non-defensive mon?
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You're acting like the Elite Four is difficult. It is the easiest stage of the game. Moxie is nice but you don't need the boosts to OHKO Jellicent and guess what? Cofagrigus's Mummy removes your ability anyway.
 
blasphemy1 said:
You're acting like the Elite Four is difficult. It is the easiest stage of the game. Moxie is nice but you don't need the boosts to OHKO Jellicent and guess what? Cofagrigus's Mummy removes your ability anyway.
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Where did I ever say that it was difficult? Moxie only makes your entire run that much easier. The point I'm making is that Moxie > Intimidate. Honestly, I don't think that Sandile would be in the high tier without Moxie. As everyone else said, it has a terrible typing, is mediocre at taking hits and you have to initially grind it for awhile. If you lose the ability to sweep 3 Pokemon from trainers right when you get it vs having to switch out due to having intimidate, then it probably is a good idea to call attention to the fact that having that ability is usually what separates it from the High to the Mid tier.

We are choosing these tiers to make it easier on players for their play troughs and having the ability that makes that happen should be pointed out.
 
Vladimir said:
"Lateness" shouldn't be a major factor when the pokemon in question comes in higher (in my case at least) level than the rest of one's team, with amazing stats, high BP dual STABs and good typing. However, the main problem when using Cobalion comes from the fact that his attack is horrible, meaning that, sometimes, even when he hits for supereffective damage, he won't be able to OHKO the opponent, which should be a given for high tier pokemon. Beartic can survive a Sacred Sword and Swagger you, for example. His special defense is also pretty bad, so he gets dented very hard by even not very effective Ice Beams and whatnot. Also...

The same argument was made a few pages ago for Klink. KLINK. *Any* Steel-type does just as good against the opponents you listed (Curse Ferroseed and Pawniard, for instance), while one's in-game team should be able to deal with the e4 anyways. All you need is a Dark-, a Fighting-, and a Flying- type to do that, for which types there were excellent choices since b4 the 4th Gym (Sandile/ Sawk/ Archeops for example).

Also DPPt Azelf wasn't high tier.
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Firstly, Azelf was high tier.

And secondly, if base 91 Attack is terrible, why are things with similar/less attack like Scrafty, Throh, and Tympole on that list? 91 is actually fairly decent, especially when you have Swords Dance and good STAB moves to back it up. And so what if one Pokemon in a gym that has like 20 or so doesn't get OHKOed? (Just for the record, mine OHKOed the Beartic.)

As for other Steels, Pawniard comes too rate and requires too much grinding to become effective, Ferrothorn is balls slow and has to take a bunch of hits before it can even move, and Escavalier is also balls slow, Klink has terribly bad coverage and late EVOs. Durant is okay but he comes even later than Cobalion AND at a lower level and also has less bulk...by a lot. Excadrill is the only Steel that really gives him competition, and Cobalion has the advantages of higher Speed and better defenses. And 91/72 Special Defensiveness is actually pretty good. I understand there are a lot of great Pokemon pre-E4, but they aren't the only choices, mind you.

Trust me, take him for a spin. You will not be disappointed. I used him quite extensively and feel he is worthy of High tier.
 
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