np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Just saying, Sturdy Skarmory is also a Blazekin check. Very frequently Sun teams aren't running hazards meaning Skarmory can come in for free at the same time as Blaze/after a kill and proceed to either Whirlwind in exchange for being crippled or Brave Bird for the OHKO in return for killing itself, whihc frankly isn't a huge deal against a Sun team.

 

[IcyMan28]

While Im not arguing anything either way, why are people stating that priority isn't effective at dealing with Blaziken? Conkeldurr's 60% Mach Punch makes it a check to Excadrill but Azumarill is no longer a check under the sun because it does a "mere" 50%? I think people are exaaggeratibg to help get it banned.

 

[Showsni]

Blaziken tends to kill itself anyway if it's running Flare Blitz, or if you predict well against High Jump Kick (with timely Protects/switch to Ghost).

 

[alphatron]

Sturdy Skarmory is something sun teams should think about in the team building process. If you're using Blaziken, Venusaur, Victreebel, Tangrowth, Volcorona (pokes that are all weak to flying), then why are you allowing such an easily checked weakness to exist. Every sun team I have faced has SR if they're using one of the above. I've used SR on my sun teams since 4th gen.

At least for Steelix, should SR be down you can protect to heal off the damage and restore sturdy.

Also, Conkeldurr is not an excadrill check. Save for maybe flame orb/guts ones and bulkier variants with drain punch.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Blaziken tends to kill itself anyway if it's running Flare Blitz, or if you predict well against High Jump Kick (with timely Protects/switch to Ghost).

Predection can go both ways, one shouldn't use it in an argument for or against something being broken. That being said besides Azumarril and Slowbro has anyone found any other counters to Blaziken outside of the sun?

 

[IcyMan28]

Sturdy Skarmory is something sun teams should think about in the team building process. If you're using Blaziken, Venusaur, Victreebel, Tangrowth, Volcorona (pokes that are all weak to flying), then why are you allowing such an easily checked weakness to exist. Every sun team I have faced has SR if they're using one of the above. I've used SR on my sun teams since 4th gen.

At least for Steelix, should SR be down you can protect to heal off the damage and restore sturdy.

Also, Conkeldurr is not an excadrill check. Save for maybe flame orb/guts ones and bulkier variants with drain punch.

What? Conkeldurr is most definitely an Excadrill check. Doing like 60% with a priority attack is in he same vein as Scizor's BP on Salamence, and it was laregely regarded as a check.

Maybe it is just me, but I find priority to be an adequate way to deal with Blaze. Since I run an offensive team, it has difficulty finding an opening to switch in, and suffers from rocks on top of that. Between weak hits, LO (which Blaze is not nearly as threatening without), Flare Blitz recoil, and Stealth rock, Blaze is being worn down pretty quickly, enough for priority to wrap things up.

Scarfers are few and far between, but other ways to check it include Scarf Terrakion, ScarfLati@s, ScarfGar (who is also immune to HJK), and ScarfStarmie. The latter two are quite rare this gen, and have been since late Gen 4, but they are still useful.

Prankster Thunder Wave is another viable option aka Thundurus.

And while HJK is a matter of prediction, Flare Blitz is not. Blaziken will lose about 30% of its health from Flare Blitz if it KOs a sweeper with HP similar to its own, which is pretty significant. The only way to circumvent this is Blaze Kick in Drought, but that is Drought's doing, not Blaziken's.

 

[masterful]

Sturdy Skarmory is something sun teams should think about in the team building process. If you're using Blaziken, Venusaur, Victreebel, Tangrowth, Volcorona (pokes that are all weak to flying), then why are you allowing such an easily checked weakness to exist. Every sun team I have faced has SR if they're using one of the above. I've used SR on my sun teams since 4th gen.

At least for Steelix, should SR be down you can protect to heal off the damage and restore sturdy.

Also, Conkeldurr is not an excadrill check. Save for maybe flame orb/guts ones and bulkier variants with drain punch.

Check is not the same as counter. Not all things have perfect counters, but that doesn't make them broken. Blaziken can be easily worn down with priority (especially if you are packing LO or Flare Blitz, and if you're not, your damage output is much lower). This makes it hard to entirely sweep teams, even 3 or more pokes, with Blaziken.

 

[Benlisted]

As I said, "what if" it's only Blaziken the broken factor under Drought? I feel Manaphy was broken even outside of Rain, but I agree with you; we had Aldaron's proposal because everyone (I guess) agrees Weather abilities are not like Intimidate or Shed Skin, holding a much bigger weight on the metagame. So why do we vote for them along with the other abilities and before the suspect pokémon, specially when it's obvious Drought will have only one related pokémon being voted this time (unless somebody hates Volcarona/Venusaur...)?

Same thing with Drizzle. Are we voting on it because it's overall broken, or because of Thundurus/Tornadus?

I really agree with this to be fair. The suspect process as a whole is quite good, but there are a few flaws, one being the decision to vote on abilities before mons - Manaphy and possibly Blaz are examples of things affected by this. I haven't found any reasoning for why abilities are voted on before mons in PR or anything, so it seems like it was arbitrarily decided, which isn't great.

Personally, the whole idea of banning a weather ability and effectively condemning the playstyle to inferiority whilst some weather abilities remain just seems very wrong to me, to the extent where it would even be beneficial to ban many of its abusers rather than the playstyle itself. In the case of Drizzle, Thundurus and Tornadus may well be the point where banning of abusers becomes detrimental to the meta, however, so I can see how people who think the playstyle is still broken would vote Drizzle rather than the abusers. Personally I don't agree, but anyway.

Just saying, Sturdy Skarmory is also a Blazekin check. Very frequently Sun teams aren't running hazards meaning Skarmory can come in for free at the same time as Blaze/after a kill and proceed to either Whirlwind in exchange for being crippled or Brave Bird for the OHKO in return for killing itself, whihc frankly isn't a huge deal against a Sun team.

Any good Sun team should be running SR, letting +2 Saur and Sawsbuck OHKO Latios, breaking Sturdy and sashes and helping with OHKOs on TTar and Tran, as well as the usual benefits.

In regards to Blaz, I'm beginning to think more and more that it is broken. The SD set's lack of hard counters is persuasive, as is the ability to go Mixed to beat said counters. Revenging with priority is ofc an option, as is making it kill itself, but the fact that you have to combine priority + hazards + recoil damage to actually beat it pretty much swings it imo. I don't want to see it go, but I can see that it probably needs to.

 

[alphatron]

Then thing is, dealing 50% damage to Blaziken isn't going to stop him from crippling your team unless you're running multiple pokes with priority or unless Blaziken's hp is already low enough from LO recoil (in which case, he has already taken out some pokes) and prior damage. Although losing three pokemon is preferable to losing the match, I still wouldn't call it the most reliable way to take care of him.

The same goes for balloon Excadrill and Conkeldurr. He isn't taking any residual damage and is resistant to hazards. Unless he's already taken prior damage, you aren't going to stop him from rampaging your team if you aren't prepared to play around him.

Prankster Thunderos and the base 108 and above scarfers are great checks due to respectively crippling him or outspeeding adamant variants even at +2, I will admit.

I always thought the point of running Flare Blitz on Blaziken was to force your opponent to sacrifice pokemon, not necessarily sweep.

 

[TLK]

Prankster Thunder Wave means losing both your Thunderus (assuming no parahax) and whatever died to give Thunderus a safe switch in.

It's not about Blaziken winning entire matches by itself - will people stop pretending it is. It dies to residual damage, and recoil and a couple of priority hits, so it won't be 6-0'ing any team, but it WILL take down around half of your own team by itself with little support and that is what makes it broken.

 

[masterful]

Then thing is, dealing 50% damage to Blaziken isn't going to stop him from crippling your team unless you're running multiple pokes with priority or unless Blaziken's hp is already low enough from LO recoil (in which case, he has already taken out some pokes) and prior damage. Although losing three pokemon is preferable to losing the match, I still wouldn't call it the most reliable way to take care of him.

The same goes for balloon Excadrill and Conkeldurr. He isn't taking any residual damage and is resistant to hazards. Unless he's already taken prior damage, you aren't going to stop him from rampaging your team if you aren't prepared to play around him.

Prankster Thunderos and the base 108 and above scarfers are great checks due to respectively crippling him or outspeeding adamant variants even at +2, I will admit.

I always thought the point of running Flare Blitz on Blaziken was to force your opponent to sacrifice pokemon, not necessarily sweep.

1)Blaze does not resist hazards. That's just a fact.
2)You will never have 100% HP after an SD with Blaziken, as people don't switch out of you because they know they will be swept. People will sack their pokes to get more residual on you. At this point, you will be low enough that you can either be taken out by priority right then, or you simply must take a little more residual, be it Flare Blitz or LO recoil, Steel Thorns damage, or sandstorm, and then you can be taken out.

 

[haunter]

Excadrill and Blaziken are completely different Pokemon. Excadrill has some surefire counters like Gliscor and Quagsire and many checks such as Conkeldurr, Birjion, many baloon users and more. Excadrill also needs sandstorm, as it's too slow to sweep effectively outside of sand.

The problems with Blaziken are multiple:
1) it can effectively run mixed sets abusing its 120\110 offensive stats making things like Slowbro no longer capable of stopping it;
2) it can sweep regardless of the weather because of speed boost;
3) unlike Excadrill, Ken has quite a massive movepool which makes it quite unpredictable;
4) has only 2 reliable revenge killers in my experience, those being Azumarill and CB DNite.

I'm not saying it's broken, but in my opinion Blaziken is the most "suspect" of all the Pokemon mentioned in this thread.

 

[alphatron]

I was talking about balloon Excadrill when I said he was resistant to hazards.

2)You will never have 100% HP after an SD with Blaziken, as people don't switch out of you because they know they will be swept. People will sack their pokes to get more residual on you. At this point, you will be low enough that you can either be taken out by priority right then, or you simply must take a little more residual, be it Flare Blitz or LO recoil, Steel Thorns damage, or sandstorm, and then you can be taken out.

So people will sack 2-3 pokes just to take out one pokemon? Thanks to team preview, Blaziken will never find himself setting up if azumarrill is still alive. And refusing to switch out of Blaziken sometimes cost you needless losses when he's not running the set you thought he was. I felt pretty stupid when my CB Infernape came face to face with a bulk up mixed blaziken late game. I mean, who the hell runs that crap...

 

[Lorenz]

Excadrill and Blaziken are completely different Pokemon. Excadrill has some surefire counters like Gliscor and Quagsire and many checks such as Conkeldurr, Birjion, many baloon users and more. Excadrill also needs sandstorm, as it's too slow to sweep effectively outside of sand.

But you can still with at least a little confidence take Excadrill against Gliscor. I'm not saying that you just leave it in against the thing but when Excadrill's the only thing left and it comes down to it and Gliscor the Excadrill user (if it has Rock Slide) isn't saying, "Well I just lost". I can't be the only one who has taken down Gliscor multiple times through Rock Slide flinches. Admittedly though it usually comes against me after I have a SD under my belt.

As for Blaziken I'm getting more and more convinced of it's suspect worthiness as these threads go on. At first I thought people were bitching about it getting speed boost, which the obvious answer is paralysis, but the point has been made clearly that there is far more to it than speed boost to make it so dangerous.

 

[haunter]

I hope you're just being funny here. Hey, I can beat Magnezone with Jirachi's iron heads if they flinch it like 30 times -_-

 

[Lorenz]

I hope you're just being funny here. Hey, I can beat Magnezone with Jirachi's iron heads if they flinch it like 30 times -_-

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you intentionally pit your Excadrill against Gliscor and say, "I've got this no problem I'll flinch it to death". What I'm trying to get at it if worst comes to worst and it comes down to just those two the Excadrill user isn't totally out of hope for victory. It's a small chance but a chance none-the-less.

 

[masterful]

I was talking about balloon Excadrill when I said he was resistant to hazards.



So people will sack 2-3 pokes just to take out one pokemon? Thanks to team preview, Blaziken will never find himself setting up if azumarrill is still alive. And refusing to switch out of Blaziken sometimes cost you needless losses when he's not running the set you thought he was. I felt pretty stupid when my CB Infernape came face to face with a bulk up mixed blaziken late game. I mean, who the hell runs that crap...

People will not give Blaze a free turn, so they will sack a poke. Blaze can only take out 1 or 2 more pokes before accumulating enough residual to be priority revenged, hence the 2 or 3 pokes taken out.

 

[alphatron]

I do not see how that is an effective way to handle Blaziken. Lose half of your team in order to kill one of your opponent's pokemon? It is not like Tyranitar vs. Reuniclus, where Tyranitar may be crippled in the process of killing him; you're essentially letting Blaziken rip through half of your team before he dies. This isn't bad for your opponent at all.

Back when I used to run Flare Blitz on Drought Blaziken, I used him solely to kill off as much as possible before he died, making room for Venusaur, the team's real sweeper, to clean up.

 

[TLK]

I do not see how that is an effective way to handle Blaziken. Lose half of your team in order to kill one of your opponent's pokemon? It is not like Tyranitar vs. Reuniclus, where Tyranitar may be crippled in the process of killing him; you're essentially letting Blaziken rip through half of your team before he dies. This isn't bad for your opponent at all.

Back when I used to run Flare Blitz on Drought Blaziken, I used him solely to kill off as much as possible before he died, making room for Venusaur, the team's real sweeper, to clean up.

This.

This is why Blaziken is OPed, because it just punches enormous holes through an opposing team. Losing 2-3 Pokemon every time you see a Blaziken is exactly what the Blaziken user wants because he's essentially taken out half your team single handedly, no matter how well built your team is (unless you carry Slowbro).

 

[Arc Tech]

What? Conkeldurr is most definitely an Excadrill check. Doing like 60% with a priority attack is in he same vein as Scizor's BP on Salamence, and it was laregely regarded as a check.

Maybe it is just me, but I find priority to be an adequate way to deal with Blaze. Since I run an offensive team, it has difficulty finding an opening to switch in, and suffers from rocks on top of that. Between weak hits, LO (which Blaze is not nearly as threatening without), Flare Blitz recoil, and Stealth rock, Blaze is being worn down pretty quickly, enough for priority to wrap things up.

Scarfers are few and far between, but other ways to check it include Scarf Terrakion, ScarfLati@s, ScarfGar (who is also immune to HJK), and ScarfStarmie. The latter two are quite rare this gen, and have been since late Gen 4, but they are still useful.

Prankster Thunder Wave is another viable option aka Thundurus.

And while HJK is a matter of prediction, Flare Blitz is not. Blaziken will lose about 30% of its health from Flare Blitz if it KOs a sweeper with HP similar to its own, which is pretty significant. The only way to circumvent this is Blaze Kick in Drought, but that is Drought's doing, not Blaziken's.

Salamence is SR weak, susceptible to Sandstorm (which was dominant last gen) and always runs LO, Excadrill is not, is not, and does not as often. If Conkeldurr is a Excadrill check, it is becuase he can take an unboosted EQ and OHKO back or threaten to kill with a GUTS mach punch.

If being able to use blaze kick in drought is drought's fault, then could you not say having SR to break Skarm's sturdy to eliminate him as a Blaziken check is SR's fault, and that SR should be banned, not Blaziken?

Also, with SR+a layer of spikes, Blaziken can pretty much KO everything at +2, bar things which resist both it's stabs and are physically based (Phys def jelli, flash fire chandy, and phys def Latias, phys def Slowbro), although hippo and suicune aren't guaranteed. With SR+2 layers of spikes, it guarantees hippo and suicune. Oh yeah, all without Life Orb (so you can run wide lens... or sitrus berry or leftovers).

 

[Thorhammer]

Brightpowder is equivalent to Pure Power now? That must be why every single thing that can is running it...

And what about Focus Band? It's basically exactly the same as Brightpowder, except the holder can be finished off by residual damage still/it powers up moves like Flail, Endeavour, Counter, etc. If you miss a Brightpowder holder and it KOs in return, that's practically identical to a Focus Band holder living and KOing in return.

Not Brightpowder. Activated Sand Veil is to Double Team as Pure Power is to Swords Dance. As Arc Tech said, though, it's all relative to how useful the boosting move is in the first place. The point is that the ability with a constant boost isn't any worse than the move with the ability to stack the same boosts.

Brightpowder is weaker, and it's an item. Comparing it to Double Team is more like comparing the SpA boost of Soul Dew to the SpA boost of Nasty Plot. So the same logic applies, just to a lesser extent.

Focus Band is similar to Evasion, but it's still not Evasion. It can only activate on a hit that would be fatal, making it impossible to abuse in combination with Substitute. Even when it activates, the holder is at 1 HP, and can easily be picked off. Like with Quick Claw, I agree that it's not doing anything to benefit the metagame and I wouldn't oppose a ban of it, but I also wouldn't say it's nearly as significant to the matter at hand.

 

[Avira]

And while HJK is a matter of prediction, Flare Blitz is not. Blaziken will lose about 30% of its health from Flare Blitz if it KOs a sweeper with HP similar to its own, which is pretty significant. The only way to circumvent this is Blaze Kick in Drought, but that is Drought's doing, not Blaziken's.

Then how about a Drought + Blaziken ban instead of a ban on Drought? A notable portion of people appear to want Drizzle and Drought gone, but what about an alternative in banning the most effective abusers in those conditions? It would nerf those weathers while allowing for more time to determine if certain Pokemon are broken even outside of Drizzle or Drought.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

The fact of the matter is that Blazekin is not considered to be broken unless at +2. As a result of this people will simply not let Blaze set up either by crippling it or killing it. Something that is set up fodder for Blaze (say Ferrothorn) should not be lacking a way to cripple it unless the team is running some other way to kill it. Therefore, one of two scenarios is happening, either your setting up with Blazekin while getting crippled by your "setup fodder", or your killing the fodder allowing something like Garchomp to come in and force you out, allowing the Chomp et al a chance to set up.

I`m really tired of people theorymonning pokemons brokenness. You rage about it sweeping teams at +2 but from experience if you know what it is capable of it just doesn`t happen because you don`t let it.

Now as for overcentralisation thats just garbage. Firstly, Slowbro is an excellent physical wall and Blazekin is hardly the only reason it is used, end of story. Second, arguing that "forcing my Ferrothorn to run Thunder Wve is overcentralisation" is plain wrong. You do not make a team without a check to a prominent sweeper and claim that the sweeper is broken. If you run setup fodder like Nattorei (in reference to Blaziken) you either make sure that that pokemon can check the sweeper or that you have another way of dealing with it.

That`s not overcentralisation, that`s team-building.

(As an analogy, do you run Forretress without having a way to check/counter Thunderus?)

 

[Arc Tech]

The fact of the matter is that Blazekin is not considered to be broken unless at +2. As a result of this people will simply not let Blaze set up either by crippling it or killing it. Something that is set up fodder for Blaze (say Ferrothorn) should not be lacking a way to cripple it unless the team is running some other way to kill it. Therefore, one of two scenarios is happening, either your setting up with Blazekin while getting crippled by your "setup fodder", or your killing the fodder allowing something like Garchomp to come in and force you out, allowing the Chomp et al a chance to set up.

I`m really tired of people theorymonning pokemons brokenness. You rage about it sweeping teams at +2 but from experience if you know what it is capable of it just doesn`t happen because you don`t let it.

Now as for overcentralisation thats just garbage. Firstly, Slowbro is an excellent physical wall and Blazekin is hardly the only reason it is used, end of story. Second, arguing that "forcing my Ferrothorn to run Thunder Wve is overcentralisation" is plain wrong. You do not make a team without a check to a prominent sweeper and claim that the sweeper is broken. If you run setup fodder like Nattorei (in reference to Blaziken) you either make sure that that pokemon can check the sweeper or that you have another way of dealing with it.

That`s not overcentralisation, that`s team-building.

(As an analogy, do you run Forretress without having a way to check/counter Thunderus?)

1) Wobbuffet
2) Dual Screens (Deoxys-S , others)
3) Memento (Latios, Whimiscot (can also taunt before memento-ing), others

If you absolutely must, it's not that hard to get a free turn of set-up - it will cost you a lot, either a teamslot at the least or a pokemon at the most. When the payoff is gg, that's well worth it. For pretty much everything else, even when you're forced to switch to something on the first turn, there are still numerous checks/counters (including most of the other susepcts- Excadrill, Reinculus), even if you must sometimes sacrifice one if you don't have the best. For blaziken, if you run even a single pokemon who can't do anything to it, then you must run slowbro or azumarril + non-drought autoweather, or let it kill itself if it's running LO and/or Flare Blitz, taking out 2-3 pokes at least.

 

[Avira]

For blaziken, if you run even a single pokemon who can't do anything to it, then you must run slowbro or azumarril + non-drought autoweather.

This is a gross exaggeration. Those are not the only ways to beat Blaziken after it sets up.