np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Uncanny Luck]

TL:DR - Crit and Flinch items can have the case made for them but really don't offer good enough benefits to be considered broken as Brightpowder was.

Please make the case to me that a 53% (the maximum of Brightpowder + Paralysis) chance of being unable to harm the opponent is more broken then an 82% chance of being unable to do anything (the maximum of King's Rock + Paralysis).

I mean, hell, that's still worse than King's Rock + Serene Grace WITHOUT the Paralysis up (at an even 74% chance of being unable to do anything).

I do agree with you on Quick Claw and Focus Band though.

 

[Benlisted]

Please make the case to me that a 53% (the maximum of Brightpowder + Paralysis) chance of being unable to harm the opponent is more broken then an 82% chance of being unable to do anything (the maximum of King's Rock + Paralysis).

I mean, hell, that's still worse than King's Rock + Serene Grace WITHOUT the Paralysis up (at an even 74% chance of being unable to do anything).

I do agree with you on Quick Claw and Focus Band though.

Well, as I said, Brightpowder has the effect of essentially forcing your mon to forefeit its turn if it misses, which is arguably more powerful than Focus Band's effect, and is the prime reason I agree with its banning.

King's Rock relies on you outpacing the opponent, being able to harm them with your move significantly, and forfeiting a better item. Yes, T-Wave support lets you outpace the opponent, but you can't guarantee that by any means (ScarfChomp shafts that idea on Cincinno for instance) - and all Skill Link users are slower than Jirachi as a comparison, meaning they outspeed far less. My point is, it's a viable strategy given the right support, just like flinchrachi is. It maybe being more effective in terms of percentage chance (btw, you should compare it to Serene Grace+Para rather than Serene Grace+ King's Rock) is pretty irrelevant to it being broken, since there are so many ways around it and it in general not being too powerful a strategy.

Hopefully that rambling paragraph actually makes sense..

 

[Acritter]

Since Uncanny Luck brought it up, I thought I'd weigh in on the hax items issue as opposed to getting into this boring Blaziken discussion.

The four remaing hax items (as far as I remember) are ones that boost crit rates; ones that boost a chance to flinch; Quick Claw; and Focus Band. Imo, the only two that need to go given our precedent of banning Brightpowder etc are Quick Claw and Focus Band.

The reason for this is twofold. For one, these items offer a chance to simply break two aspects of the game - HP depleting to 0 resulting in a KO, and turn order based on speed. It's less the luck aspect and more that these give the chance to effectively break aspects we all hold to be critical elements of the game that means these should go - more so even than Brightpowder, which breaks the less definite element that 100% moves should always hit.

Secondly, both crit and flinch items do something only affecting your moves directly as opposed to hampering your opponent's. This means that the items can be used strategically and beneficially to suplment existing strategies (as opposed to the aforementioned two which are essentially always used randomly to try and screw over the opponent). Namely - Crit abuse Absol etc, and King's Rock Cincinno, very niche strategies and certainly somewhat unsavoury, but no more broken than FlinchRachi in terms of abusing hax. To an extent the same can be said for BrightpowderChomp - but that does have real similarities to Focus Band anything, so I see why Brightpowder was removed. Also, using either crit or flinch items on anything other than a specifically abusing strategy will essentially be entirely inferior to many other items, and be far less likely to win you the battle - they will not be broken basically, as opposed to Focus Band and Quick Claw which by their nature break the game.

TL:DR - Quick Claw and Focus Band need to be banned no matter what, Crit and Flinch items can have the case made for them but really don't offer good enough benefits to be considered broken as Brightpowder was.

I simultaneously agree and disagree with you. I think that all those items need to go, but not because they're broken. It's because they're stupid, and deserve to be removed under the Stupid Clause (also known as the reason we ban evasion and OHKO, despite them quite possibly not being broken). The Stupid Clause simply states: if something does not help the metagame and has the easy potential to hax people out and make the game less fun, then it's stupid. Get rid of it. All these items fall under the Stupid Clause, and as such, should just be kicked out not for purposes of balance but just to tidy the place up.

In case you can't tell, this is editorializing.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

And just how is Brightpowder broken again?

Sure, it occasionally has a chance of your attack missing, but the chance is so low, especially with Lax Incense.

Has anyone ever missed against an opponent with Lax Incense? Moves like Stone Edge and Focus Blast don't count.

 

[Benlisted]

I simultaneously agree and disagree with you. I think that all those items need to go, but not because they're broken. It's because they're stupid, and deserve to be removed under the Stupid Clause (also known as the reason we ban evasion and OHKO, despite them quite possibly not being broken). The Stupid Clause simply states: if something does not help the metagame and has the easy potential to hax people out and make the game less fun, then it's stupid. Get rid of it. All these items fall under the Stupid Clause, and as such, should just be kicked out not for purposes of balance but just to tidy the place up.

In case you can't tell, this is editorializing.

Yeah, this was the case I said could be made for crit and flinch items being broken. Pretty much the question is - do they provide detrimental effects extreme enough to warrant their banning? I believe they do not, mostly as they don't inhibit the opponent's moves like evasion items or Focus Band/Quick Claw do, as well as arguably having less powerful impacts overall.

And just how is Brightpowder broken again?

Sure, it occasionally has a chance of your attack missing, but the chance is so low, especially with Lax Incense.

Has anyone ever missed against an opponent with Lax Incense? Moves like Stone Edge and Focus Blast don't count.

Like I mentioned in my post - Brightpowder along with Quick Claw/Focus Band do not impact solely your own moves - they affect the opponent in a way they cannot control and did not plan for (being based on luck and a low chance merely adds to this detrimental impact). Moreover, this impact isn't small, like say being poisoned by poison point (noone considers this when choosing to use contact moves for instance), it is very large and breaks key elements of the game, either leaving a pokemon that would be dead alive, giving a slow pokemon the ability to hit first when not using priority, or essentially forfeiting your turn when your move misses in the case of Brightpowder.

 

[Arc Tech]

Okay. Now, with that definition, how far do we go when banning uncompetitive things? Confusion, Attract and Paralysis all fit the definition of "encourages the players to rely on luck to win." Freeze and Sleep do to a lesser extent.

And we won't even address crits, or non-100% flinch moves.



Evasion items could be disputed as "uncompetitive," considering it was more-or-less a ban on a whim as opposed to "we've tested this and found the evasion boosts from the items caused a loss a significant number of times."

I am curious though, how do you feel about things like King's Rock and Razor Fang? Those two items add a 10% flinch to all moves (minimum) and can give 74% flinch rate on anything with Serene Grace and a 30% flinch rate attack. With paralysis that's 18% chance of getting to make any move.

As I said, something is uncompetitive when it introduces luck when it does nothing but introduce luck, and has no other purpose. I agree with banning confusion (-self induced) and attract, but not paralysis since it has another purpose (reducing speed).

Also, a significant amount of times is one time IMO when it comes to something which satisfies the above requirement. If Gamefreak decided to make a 1/1000 chance that a pokemon would faint randomly during a battle, I think everyone would agree that we should ignore that in the simulator. (And have a re-battle clause for wifi).

I'm pretty sure king's rock doesn't work with moves which already have a secondary effect (including flinch). However, it is introducing new luck and doing nothing but, so still it is uncompetitive.

Crit items do NOT introduce new luck, they only modify existing luck. A case can be made for them, but unless a very good argument is put forth I'm against banning them.

 

[Nanoswine]

Agreeing with what Arc said. If we're going to ban Brightpowder/Lax Incense, we might as well do it right. That means everything that exists only to introduce new luck into the game should be banned.

So basically that means Confuse Ray, Supersonic, Sweet Kiss, Teeter Dance, Swagger, Attract, Focus Band, King's Rock, and Razor Fang. We stand nothing to gain by keeping them, and lessen the amount of luck that can be abused by banning them.

 

[alexwolf]

I am curious though, how do you feel about things like King's Rock and Razor Fang? Those two items add a 10% flinch to all moves (minimum) and can give 74% flinch rate on anything with Serene Grace and a 30% flinch rate attack. With paralysis that's 18% chance of getting to make any move.

king's rock and razor fang are very different from the evasion items...
what do u prefer gaining a free turn or flinching the opponent(which requires you to be faster and using an attacking move)?
do u prefer getting a crit or getting a free turn?
evasion is the best hax hands down that's why it is considered so uncompetitive...
it has the worst effect netting you one free turn(which when happens is the best effect from almost any other item in most cases).

 

[Blackdragonking]

What is it about Deoxys-S that led to this sudden nomination and majority vote for it? It is considerably weaker than the rest of the metagame with its base 95 offenses, relying on coverage and the severe weakening of most pokemon to be able to sweep. Its speed is nice, but it is outrun by a few Chlorophyll sweepers this gen and also loses to various Scarfers + Excadrill.

Dual Screens? It isn't the only pokemon capable of using them. Latios has Screens + Memento, Azelf has screens + boom, Jirachi has screens + Wish, etc. This isn't a unique niche for it and it shouldn't be treated as the be all-end all strategy that it was last gen.

Then there's its role as hazard layer, which has taken a harsh, harsh hit this generation with the lessened effectiveness of suicide leads, the presence of better hazard setters (Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn especially), new abilities in the form of Magic Bounce, and the buffed effects of Magic Coat. Deoxys-S will often gain 2 layers at best in my experience, which is no better, and often worse, than the multiple layers that Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and others can accomplish. If it runs Taunt...it can be bounced back easily, while it is helpless against Xatu and Espeon. And unlike the pokemon I mentioned, it is much easier to kill, meaning that it has a smaller window to get those hazards down in the first place.

I'm really just not seeing where Deoxys-S is broken this metagame, in any way, shape or form. Hopefully someone can enlighten me.

This may just be me, but there are several things that lead to Deoxys-S being nominated to rejoin his brethren in the uber tier;

1. Deoxys-S lead invalidates 90% of all other lead pokemon. There isn't a single suicide lead fast enough to taunt Deoyxs, and Prankster Leads aren't that common and will have anything they do bounced back in their face since Magic Coat's priority is unbeatable by any lead pokemon. In this case, it gets nominations because it's a lead so good that it makes non-attacking or anti leads look like a pile of **** in comparison; forcing dozens of perfectly good set-up leads out of viability because we want an ex-uber to stay OU is not good.

2. Deoxys-S has nearly the same special attack stat as Starmie and its physical attack stat is just as high. Not only that, it has an incredible movepool and a speed stat that can let it revenge kill or 2HKO a wide variety of pokemon. Even traditionally fast pokemon like Gengar and Starmie are screwed if they're not running scarves. Deoxys has low HP, but it's not exactly made of glass, and it resists two priority moves and outspeeds the rest with its own. It has all the coverage it needs, and despite its "low" attacking stats, it has the most powerful psychic move in the game in a meta where Psychic is picking up a lot of targets. I personally don't like the idea that pokemon would need to rely on scarves when they have much, much better non-scarved sets or weather speed boosters being even MORE prominent just because we wanted to keep a pokemon that was designed to make everything else's speed stat look puny in OU.

3. Deoxys-S also does support better than anything else. Other things can dual screen, yeah, but other things can also be taunted. Deoxys-S? Not so much. Between its role as OU's super-lead, its abilities as a mixed attacker and revenge killer who cannot be outsped unless you rely a lot on weather or Choice Scarf, and the fact that it also has really good supporting sets, Deoxys-S has the same problem people were complaining about with Blaziken that it has a lot of strong sets that are not easily predicted, and can do major damage if you guess wrong what it's trying to do.

4. Deoyxs-S exacerbates the stat creep and shift towards bulky offense in the metagame. We're already starting to regard pokemon that aren't absurdly fast as unviable in OU play unless they're bulky, but now even ordinarily super-fast but not particularly defensive pokemon like Starmie and Weavile have Deoxys-S hanging over their heads; it doesn't need a crapload of offensive power to knock down the things that are fast but not as fast as he is. Instead it simply makes the already annoying trend towards teams trying to work in a specially bulky choice banded pursuiter to deal with Latios even more vital to kill it when it tries to get away.

5. It used to be an Uber. All of its other forms except D are Ubers, and D has even less offensive power, poor HP to offset its mondo defenses, and unlike S, is pretty much limited to support and stalling sets, which OU taunters CAN deal with. People are naturally going to feel like something designed to be superlative in the category its form indicates is more at home in Ubers than OU. If it's going to outperform an entire kind of lead that didn't get any weaker over the generational shift, why keep it OU?

Those are the reasons that come to me, but then again, I thought letting ANY of the old Ubers come back to OU was a mistake, and would probably vote Deoxys for ubers anyway for the above reasons and because **** Deoxys. I hope that doesn't invalidate the arguments I actually spent some time on, though.

 

[alexwolf]

Agreeing with what Arc said. If we're going to ban Brightpowder/Lax Incense, we might as well do it right. That means everything that exists only to introduce luck into the game should be banned. So basically that means Confuse Ray, Supersonic, Sweet Kiss, Teeter Dance, Swagger, Attract, Focus Band, King's Rock, and Razor Fang. We stand nothing to gain by keeping them, and lessen the amount of luck that can be abused by banning them.

guys pls stop talking about banning confusion inducing moves and attract... they can be countered by a simple and competitive way:switching! evasion cannot be countered with such easy measures that's why it is uncompetitive...
if there were some high powered moves that always hit with wide distribution,evasion wouldn't be uncompetitive....

also the closest item being even relatively close to the unompetitiveness of the evasion items is focus band...if it activates when you already have 1 hp then it is the same as gaining a free turn.
but unilke evasion focus band can just get countered by any damaging status or flicnhing moves...
i personally don't believe that surviving a hit sometimes is uncompetitve enough for a ban....
every other item is just not uncompetitive enough,in comparison to evasion items,to nesseciate their banning.
getting to move first or getting a critical or a flinch(if you are faster)is 100 times less game changing than it is to gain a free turn...

so any other item doesn't deserve a ban due to uncompetitiveness nor confusion and attraction do...

 

[Uncanny Luck]

Well, as I said, Brightpowder has the effect of essentially forcing your mon to forefeit its turn if it misses, which is arguably more powerful than Focus Band's effect, and is the prime reason I agree with its banning.

The thing is, when Focus Band activates there is literally nothing you can do to prevent it. Unless I'm mistaken, it even blocks multi-hit moves. You can still hit a bright powder user with auto-hit moves like Aura Sphere or Clear Smog in addition to moves that bypass the accuracy check.

I don't think we even have to talk about Quick Claw though.

King's Rock relies on you outpacing the opponent, being able to harm them with your move significantly, and forfeiting a better item. Yes, T-Wave support lets you outpace the opponent, but you can't guarantee that by any means (ScarfChomp shafts that idea on Cincinno for instance) - and all Skill Link users are slower than Jirachi as a comparison, meaning they outspeed far less. My point is, it's a viable strategy given the right support, just like flinchrachi is. It maybe being more effective in terms of percentage chance (btw, you should compare it to Serene Grace+Para rather than Serene Grace+ King's Rock) is pretty irrelevant to it being broken, since there are so many ways around it and it in general not being too powerful a strategy.

Hopefully that rambling paragraph actually makes sense..

Well, actually I compared it to Kings Rock + Serene Grace + Para. The point of the comparisons was that even at it's most abused, it's chance of Bright Powder is still less than abusing Serene Grace flinches.

As I said, something is uncompetitive when it introduces luck when it does nothing but introduce luck, and has no other purpose. I agree with banning confusion (-self induced) and attract, but not paralysis since it has another purpose (reducing speed).

You do realize that means that Sand Veil wouldn't be banned, as it adds immunity during a sandstorm. The same with Snow Cloak and hail.

guys pls stop talking about banning confusion inducing moves and attract... they can be countered by a simple and competitive way:switching! evasion cannot be countered with such easy measures that's why it is uncompetitive...
if there were some high powered moves that always hit with wide distribution,evasion wouldn't be uncompetitive....

If there are entry hazards up, switching isn't always an option. Also, if they're using Bright Powder you can always item swap it away.

Also, forgive me for not knowing this but are accuracy reducing moves banned?

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Yeah, this was the case I said could be made for crit and flinch items being broken. Pretty much the question is - do they provide detrimental effects extreme enough to warrant their banning? I believe they do not, mostly as they don't inhibit the opponent's moves like evasion items or Focus Band/Quick Claw do, as well as arguably having less powerful impacts overall.



Like I mentioned in my post - Brightpowder along with Quick Claw/Focus Band do not impact solely your own moves - they affect the opponent in a way they cannot control and did not plan for (being based on luck and a low chance merely adds to this detrimental impact). Moreover, this impact isn't small, like say being poisoned by poison point (noone considers this when choosing to use contact moves for instance), it is very large and breaks key elements of the game, either leaving a pokemon that would be dead alive, giving a slow pokemon the ability to hit first when not using priority, or essentially forfeiting your turn when your move misses in the case of Brightpowder.

Sand Veil is even worse, so why should it be treated differently?

Also, what about Lax Incense? How is Lax Incense borken?

In addition, in banning Brightpowder, you have nerfed Cacturne. If Brightpowder is so broken, then why does Cacturne's DP analysis encourage it?

 

[Arc Tech]

You do realize that means that Sand Veil wouldn't be banned, as it adds immunity during a sandstorm. The same with Snow Cloak and hail.



Also, forgive me for not knowing this but are accuracy reducing moves banned?

Good point about sand veil/ snow cloak giving immunity, but that really only applies to cacturn/cactnea. I still think it should be banned by my clause though, only it wouldn't affect them as well as pokes who are running last-gen moves. The other pokes sets would be altered by the removal of the moves, cacturne's set would be altered by the removal of sand immunity.

Also, they're not banned because of switching. I have been considering actually trying out a mud bomb/mud slap blissey as another user suggested on this thread... mostly to see what kind of reactions it brings lol.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Because everyone expects Blissey to have Natural Cure, so they don't try to status it.

 

[Uncanny Luck]

Good point about sand veil/ snow cloak giving immunity, but that really only applies to cacturn/cactnea. I still think it should be banned by my clause though, only it wouldn't affect them as well as pokes who are running last-gen moves. The other pokes sets would be altered by the removal of the moves, cacturne's set would be altered by the removal of sand immunity.

Also, they're not banned because of switching. I have been considering actually trying out a mud bomb/mud slap blissey as another user suggested on this thread... mostly to see what kind of reactions it brings lol.

Well, the move Soak turns the user into Water-type which prevents them from being protected from damage by their type. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak would prevent that from happening. Just wanted to note that.

Also, so that means Accuracy reducing moves + Shadow Tag aren't banned?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Excuse me, but aren't we getting a bit too technical here?

 

[XienZo]

Yeah, again it seems like we're trying to put too many objective reasons for a ban that we did, ultimately, because we wanted to.

I HIGHLY doubt any voter thought "Since Bright Powder, unlike hax item X, cannot be mitigated by the opponent (Except by Move Y, which is too situational, unlike the more practical Move Z that counters hax item X), I will ban brightpowder but not mention hax item X", and it's rather naive to think that any of this unrealistically "objective" reasoning actually applied during either the last suspect test or any future ones.

 

[masterful]

Has anyone read the characteristics of a desirable metagame? I sincerely doubt that. Luck will always exist in pokemon, there are many elements of luck in pokemon, and they all have downsides, just like every other aspect of pokemon. Life Orb is a better item than Brightpowder in most cases, as you get better power consistently, yet it takes away some of your health. Expert Belt gives you the ability to bluff choice items, yet offers a less powerful boost and requires really good super-effective coverage. Choice Items offer a large boost, but force you to use only one move per time in play. Brightpowder gives you a 10% chance to get a free turn when an opponent attacks, yet offers little in terms of boosts to power. Leftovers gives you the abillity to make more Substitutes, to improve durability, and to offset residual, but also offers little in terms of power. Now, without thinking of the fact that Brightpowder was banned, and that it is currently the popular philosophy to believe that it is broken, tell me exactly how Brightpowder is so much better than those items that it needed to be banned, how it was so unbalanced that it made pokes too powerful or overcentralized the metagame. Or, you can explain to me why it makes sense to ban Brightpowder while things like Parahax, crit chance, Serene Grace, flinches, confusion, attract, and every other luck-based element of pokemon is allowed? EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. If you find that you can't, the reason is because BRIGHTPOWDER IS NOT BROKEN, and it was not game-breaking, and thus should not have been banned.

 

[XienZo]

Has anyone read the characteristics of a desirable metagame? I sincerely doubt that. Luck will always exist in pokemon, there are many elements of luck in pokemon, and they all have downsides, just like every other aspect of pokemon. Life Orb is a better item than Brightpowder in most cases, as you get better power consistently, yet it takes away some of your health. Expert Belt gives you the ability to bluff choice items, yet offers a less powerful boost and requires really good super-effective coverage. Choice Items offer a large boost, but force you to use only one move per time in play. Brightpowder gives you a 10% chance to get a free turn when an opponent attacks, yet offers little in terms of boosts to power. Leftovers gives you the abillity to make more Substitutes, to improve durability, and to offset residual, but also offers little in terms of power. Now, without thinking of the fact that Brightpowder was banned, and that it is currently the popular philosophy to believe that it is broken, tell me exactly how Brightpowder is so much better than those items that it needed to be banned, how it was so unbalanced that it made pokes too powerful or overcentralized the metagame. Or, you can explain to me why it makes sense to ban Brightpowder while things like Parahax, crit chance, Serene Grace, flinches, confusion, attract, and every other luck-based element of pokemon is allowed? EXPLAIN THAT TO ME. If you find that you can't, the reason is because BRIGHTPOWDER IS NOT BROKEN, and it was not game-breaking, and thus should not have been banned.

Or perhaps, it's because the "popular philosophy" is wrong?

Because in the end, we don't necessarily ban whatever is broken. We ban whatever got enough votes from voters.

That is, ultimately, we ban what we want, which, more often than not, equates to being broken. Nonetheless, it's inaccurate to assume that everything we end up banning WILL be broken.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Somewhat off-topic question:
Will the new server rankings be reset when Suspect Round 4 "Officially" begins?

It just seems to me to be a bit pointless as the server switch neutralized all previous rankings anyway and, iirc, the new server was switched to after the voting phase had completed. Basically if we were to leave the server as is it would only mean that the suspect round (ladder phase) would have started about a week earlier than expected (speaking of which is there a particular reason this Suspect Round hasn`t been replace with number 4 yet?).

So basically we just save a bit of time by not having to reset the ladder to no obvious detriment.

 

[Buzzcut]

This topic just seems like pointless bickering now. What's done is done, and everyone may not be happy with that, but you can't please everyone.

A few pages back someone said something along the lines of "if you have a problem, get better so you can vote". That's more harsh than I would personally word it, but it is essentially true. They (the voters) acted on what they think is best, and disagreeing is fine, but arguing for 9 or so pages on something that won't be changed for a month or two is just silly. Agree to disagree, and hope that you can vote for the next round, bring up the ban and justify your argument.

 

[Nanoswine]

Why are any of you against banning confusion moves, attract, or flinch items? They serve no purpose other than to increase the chance that sheer luck will play a role in the outcome of a battle, and we lose nothing by banning them. Why do you oppose a ban that reduces the impact of luck with no repercussions whatsoever?

BRIGHTPOWDER IS NOT BROKEN

We don't only ban what's broken. Does spamming OHKO moves give you a greater chance of winning a game than playing with some actual strategy? No, but it does decrease the chance that those who do play using strategy winning, and as such is uncompetitive.

I could 6-0 a well-balanced team with a Confuse Ray Crobat if I get lucky enough. While it may not be a winning strategy, the availability of that strategy increases the chance of a highly skilled player losing to a player with very little skill at all. While we cannot ever outright eliminate this possibility, we should do our best to decrease the chance of it happening.

 

[charizard24]

Why are any of you against banning confusion moves, attract, or flinch items? They serve no purpose other than to increase the chance that sheer luck will play a role in the outcome of a battle, and we lose nothing by banning them. Why do you oppose a ban that reduces the impact of luck with no repercussions whatsoever?



We don't only ban what's broken. Does spamming OHKO moves give you a greater chance of winning a game than playing with some actual strategy? No, but it does decrease the chance that those who do play using strategy winning, and as such is uncompetitive.

I could 6-0 a well-balanced team with a Confuse Ray Crobat if I get lucky enough. While it may not be a winning strategy, the availability of that strategy increases the chance of a highly skilled player losing to a player with very little skill at all. While we cannot ever outright eliminate this possibility, we should do our best to decrease the chance of it happening.

Luck is an integral part of pokemon in many aspects. Why should we ban Confusion, Attract and Flinch items just because they introduce luck. The effect they have is relatively small on the metagame as a whole. So what if you end up losing 1 match out of a 1000 to a noob with an Attract Blissey or sth. You were unlucky. It doesn't mean that it will happen again and again and again. Relying on Luck does not consistently win games for whoever is using it. I feel the need to highlight that.

Let's talk statistics, the chances of your Confuse ray Crobat 6-0 ing an opponents team are in the realms of 1% chance. While it may happen to some unlucky guy, 99% of the time it will not have a serious impact.

Let's take a look at Brightpowder, a 10% boost to evasion. So, 90% of the time you will hit your opponent and do some damage. Although 10% of the time you will miss and you will lose the match. The odds are still greatly in your favour. How is this different from running let's say Fire Blast or Hydro Pump and relying on it to OHKO the mon that's about to sweep you.

 

[XienZo]

Why are any of you against banning confusion moves, attract, or flinch items? They serve no purpose other than to increase the chance that sheer luck will play a role in the outcome of a battle, and we lose nothing by banning them. Why do you oppose a ban that reduces the impact of luck with no repercussions whatsoever?



We don't only ban what's broken. Does spamming OHKO moves give you a greater chance of winning a game than playing with some actual strategy? No, but it does decrease the chance that those who do play using strategy winning, and as such is uncompetitive.

I could 6-0 a well-balanced team with a Confuse Ray Crobat if I get lucky enough. While it may not be a winning strategy, the availability of that strategy increases the chance of a highly skilled player losing to a player with very little skill at all. While we cannot ever outright eliminate this possibility, we should do our best to decrease the chance of it happening.

I'm pretty sure that the confusion on Machamp's DynamicPunch does play a major role and would hurt Machamps' viability if removed.

Normal confusion is also useful for discouraging physical attackers, is it not? I hardly see how it only has absolutely negative effects competitive-wise.

Also, spamming OHKO moves certainly won't give you a greater chance of winning then using a strategy, but that's because you're spamming, not because you're using OHKO moves. OHKO moves allow pokes like Haxorus to beat out Skarm as well as allowing Gliscor to beat the bulkier walls. I doubt Stallrein would mind having the extra option.

Is the availability of an extra option worth the luck? Maybe, maybe not. Should the positive effects be acknowledged? Absolutely.

Let's take a look at Brightpowder, a 10% boost to evasion. So, 90% of the time you will hit your opponent and do some damage. Although 10% of the time you will miss and you will lose the match. The odds are still greatly in your favour. How is this different from running let's say Fire Blast or Hydro Pump and relying on it to OHKO the mon that's about to sweep you.

With Substitute, it can potentially be extended to 1-.9^4= 34% though. If there were anything else afflicting you like paralysis or sand veil, it could definitely turn the numbers against you.

 

[Arc Tech]

Somewhat off-topic question:
Will the new server rankings be reset when Suspect Round 4 "Officially" begins?

It just seems to me to be a bit pointless as the server switch neutralized all previous rankings anyway and, iirc, the new server was switched to after the voting phase had completed. Basically if we were to leave the server as is it would only mean that the suspect round (ladder phase) would have started about a week earlier than expected (speaking of which is there a particular reason this Suspect Round hasn`t been replace with number 4 yet?).

So basically we just save a bit of time by not having to reset the ladder to no obvious detriment.

They will be reset because Blaziken and the evasion items are allowed right now, and won't be after (I think, I usually don't play until the next round. I just teambuild in between rounds).