Deoxys-D can't beat Chansey if she's running Toxic and Aromatherapy, (granted the combo is rare but it should be used more).
@below: true, obviously I haven't been facing enough opponents smart enough to do so...
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Deoxys-D can't beat Chansey if she's running Toxic and Aromatherapy, (granted the combo is rare but it should be used more).
@below: true, obviously I haven't been facing enough opponents smart enough to do so...
Kyurem outspeeds Empoleon and then he Phaze you first.
What about the sun, not only it makes Victini go over the edge, victribeel, sawsbuck, tangrowth, charizard, etc... it makes a lot of normaly average pokes go over the edge, growth + chlorophyll is really awesome and without drizzle, sun is breaking the meta
PS: if your foe as xatu you're not getting rocks anytime soon, the're spinners too, and like i said before, it survived Arcanine's Close Combat at full health, that means he will take the punch and hit back, OHKOing, you can swich too, and top will hate being burned/too damaged, he as awesome versatility, with Chiced stes, mixed ones, and that stallinsh CS with natural buk and awesome HP
Deoxys-D can learn Taunt.
Well, Deoxys-D can just Taunt Chansey into oblivion, but it'd have to avoid Toxic on the switch, though I suppose you could use that to your advantage.
Also the thing with Trick Alakazam will only work once, and you might get fucked if you push that item on something else, with Knock Off, you're fucking everyone bar Sticky Hold/etc's item, which is usually nice.
Also the thing with Trick Alakazam will only work once, and you might get fucked if you push that item on something else, with Knock Off, you're fucking everyone bar Sticky Hold/etc's item, which is usually nice.
Trick is as awesome as it has allways been so it's not a waste move for a lot of people, that would be the a reason to choose it over knock off, still, people is crying at some pokes because having no true counters, and that's true for someof them (i'm seing Kyu and you sun), but chansey is as predictable that's crazy, unless you're against a chansey user that has a weird set (like toxic/aromatherapy) is not gonna take a psyquic to predict
WAIT. Kadabra with Trick to use its Eviolite, with Recover/CM/Psyshock/Trick. Although, I don't see any other reason to use Kadabra..
Chansey can beat pretty much all of Kyu's sets, and despite a 101 hp sub, Chansey can still get there 1 on 1.
@virizion: Well, that is the first sign of an issue something is wrong....
@Gerrard: Aside from vicnin, the only sun sweeper I have really seen an issue with is Sawsbuck.
The defense core of Slowbro and Chansey is far too strong right now, and I think there are a couple of reasons why:
The Lack of good Mixes Attackers:
Infernape was really good in OU not for his high stats, but his high mixed stats able to attack skarm on the special side, or blissey on the physical one. No infernape of UU (which was played by Blazekin) means that chansey can easily switch in on slowbro's weaknesses short of heracross's megahorn. Slowbro resists Chansey's one weakness, and I think we have pretty much showed that Chansey needs to be hit with a fighting attack to do serious damage.
A good portion of chansey's checks from Gen 4 UU are gone:
Toxicroak and Blazeken are no longer UU, which leaves hitmonlee and hitmontop as the only solid counters, both of which are pretty much walled by slowbro (though slowbro has to be wary of Sucker Punch Variants).
Nidoking/queen have gone the special route now thanks to the DW ability, and quite frankly, the physical set up versions are completely outclassed by the new UU pokemon such as Empoleon, and the special attack versions are better against just about every other pokemon, but chansey.
Better abilities/items:
Chansey with Evolite becamse so strong, that she saw in my opinion (PO statistics be damned) almost as much play as her older sister, and only blissey's slightly higher sp.atk for ice beam, the loss of lefties in sand, and the ability to grant larger wishes to other pokes made blissey slightly more favored in OU. Slowbro's regeneration is just ridiculous, allowing in to take even super effective hits on the physical side pseudo well, and then recovering damage out on the switch.
Why Chansey over slowbro?
Unlike chansey, slowbro has a number of weaknesses that it can be attacked from. Even on his bulky side (defense), Scarfed adaminte heracross 2HKOs slowbro with megahorn, and on the special side, the options are quite large. The only counter of slowbro that isn't here anymore is Vensaur. There is NO special fighting attacking in the game, stabbed or unstabbed that can 2HKO chansey in this tier (and I would argue in OU eitherl, but I didn't do a full analysis yet). And just for fun, since I play this a lot and know one of the anti chansey ban argument is psyshock: Timid Azelf's psysho shock to a bold 252HP, 252 Def Chansey is 24.01%-28.27: A 4HKO from a stabbed psyco shock from a pretty high sp. atk, after rocks.
Regardless of what happens, chansey is going to be the subject of a lot of talk, but realize that you cannot use the criteria for banning an offensive pokemon then for a defensive pokemon.
Any thoughts on this?
Lol mixed Kyurem rapes stall. You rip through Chansey with outrage and with enough attack investment, Slowbro is 2HKO'd on the switch. That's ignoring the fact 'bro can't take Draco Meteors at all. You can run Focus Blast and Ice beam in the last slots and just wreck stuff.
How much of an attack investment, exactly? I just did the research and outrage on the chansey I just put is still, a 2-3HKO after rocks, and that was max attack, timid Kyu (which shouldn't be max attack if your going mixed). Meaning that your sacrificing the sp.atk, and probably lose the KO on slowbro. If you run more special attack on him to keep the OHKO on slowbro, chansey is a definite 3HKO, and maybe 4 depending on the EV spread.
Besides, Kyurem might not be around for much, and d-meteor is completely walled by chansey. He cannot adequately fight both walls...
Kyu can run dragon claw, and FB is a 3HKO, a 2HKO if spikes, not saying he cannot be stopped but chansey cannot kill all its sets (sub/claw sharpen set laughs in your face) and if you haven´t face victrebeel in the sun you´re lucky, Weather ball (a 150 BP fire attack) giga drain/solarbeam/vine whip (if he wants to go mixed) and Sludge whit ok bulk and growth makes him enormously treathening (he can survive ice shard ans solarbeam back), and Tangrowth has syntesis so he will not be scared of chansey, at +6 both 2HKO chansey on the special side, with vine whit is a OHKO for both, and without t-wave she's just set-up fodder since she ha to use wish and protect to not be OHKO after just one growth (and then you use even more growth)
Considering that low number of viable spikers in this meta, and the rule of thumb that rocks should only be considered in calculations, FB is a 3HKO, and it still needs to hit. Although yes, I forgot about the rare claw sharpen set does get chansey, but I would argue that is not a good way to use Kyugem. Can you post the EV spread for that build, because that set might stop chansey, but I am willing to be he loses to other pokes his standard sets would typically deal with.
Well the set I'm running which was influenced by reach seems to deal with Chansey well altough im certain the EVs are less than optimal.
Kyurem @ Draco Plate
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Hone Claws
- Outrage
- Blizzard
- Draco Meteor
Kyurem @ Draco Plate
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Hone Claws
- Outrage
- Blizzard
- Draco Meteor
Mishra you are retarded.
Chansey isnt that unbeatable wall you make it out to be. Its a decent wall but Set-Up-Fodder for some really good Pokes. The checks you mentioned (ToxicroaK/Blaziken) werent even the biggest concerns of Chansey last gen. Not to mention that Slowbro fucks Croak/Blaziken anyways.....
If you are scared of Chansey use SubNP-Mismagius, TSpikes, Taunt, Psyshock with a CMer or even Heal Block.
@Topic: Way way too early for bans. Wait 1-2 month before you start them, because right now some Pokes might still end up in OU (i.e. Victini).
Chansey isnt that unbeatable wall you make it out to be. Its a decent wall but Set-Up-Fodder for some really good Pokes. The checks you mentioned (ToxicroaK/Blaziken) werent even the biggest concerns of Chansey last gen. Not to mention that Slowbro fucks Croak/Blaziken anyways.....
If you are scared of Chansey use SubNP-Mismagius, TSpikes, Taunt, Psyshock with a CMer or even Heal Block.
@Topic: Way way too early for bans. Wait 1-2 month before you start them, because right now some Pokes might still end up in OU (i.e. Victini).
Sub + Claw Sharpen (a.k.a BRemu :3 ) : Substitute, Claw Sharpen, Dragon Claw/ Dragon Tail, Protect/ Focus Blast. With his ridiculous bulk of 125/90/90, Pressure and Sub+Protect it can set up on so many Pokemon like: Chansey/ Blissey, Bulky Waters, Bulky Grass, Gligar, Bronzong, hell, even Machamp, etc. The idea of this set is set up a sub and from there play accordingly to your oponent reaction (Pressure Stall, use Claw Sharpen, etc). Nothing can switch in and beat this set without any risks.
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs:
248 HP / 20 Def / 216 SDef / 24 Spd Sassy OR
248 HP / 176 Def / 64 SDef Careful (if you want to take car of fighting types or special attackers)
- Substitute
- Protect/Focus Blast/Blizzard
- Dragon Tail/Dragon Claw
- Hone Claws
PS: please, calling **** to anyone isn't productive and servers to no porpuse in disscusion
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs:
248 HP / 20 Def / 216 SDef / 24 Spd Sassy OR
248 HP / 176 Def / 64 SDef Careful (if you want to take car of fighting types or special attackers)
- Substitute
- Protect/Focus Blast/Blizzard
- Dragon Tail/Dragon Claw
- Hone Claws
PS: please, calling **** to anyone isn't productive and servers to no porpuse in disscusion
That set gets hit by toxic, and stalled by wish/protect chansey, and I believe it would have to +3 before outrage OHKOed.
Innapropriate.
It walls a good portion of the metagame. Sure, some pokes can set up on it. It they couldn't chansey would have been emergency banned, but the only poke I really see setting up on it is Coballioin, which can then be killed by choice scarf heracross, walled by slowbro, and has to worry about flamethrower. And your last point kind of helps my point about the ultimate defense core.
So, another specialalized set. Any physical ice type that carried ice shard could ko mixmence after rocks in gen 4 (I think donphan could as well, depending on the spread). Just because there are stops to a wall, doesn't mean shit. Heal block is far too narrow, and azelf, one of the highest stab sp.atkers with psyshock still 3-4hko, and can be wish stalled if it doesn't carry taunt.
And lol at tocix spikes, any rapid spinner or poison type can stop that, and chansey can herself if she carries heal bell.
@Topic: Way way too early for bans. Wait 1-2 month before you start them, because right now some Pokes might still end up in OU (i.e. Victini).[/QUOTE]
Those sets are good, but D-tail version loses to chansey if it is 1 on 1. and the lack of speed makes things like offensive hitmontop outspeed and Ko with close combat on the special wall.
No it doesn't. Kyurem is faster than Chansey and Seismic Toss has to be used twice to break his Substitute. Kyurem can easily get to +1 or more and then simply phaze Chansey out. Chansey cannot touch the Sub/Protect/Dragon Tail/Claw Sharpen set.
Can't beat chansey?
use a fighting type.
Still can't win?
you're a lost cause.
On other notes I still think Kyruem is ridiculous as no other real 'counters' have surfaced for it, also I am starting to think sun is broken even without sawsbuck / victini. Eggy and Tangrowth are both seriously good as well as Arcanine and Typhlosion in the sun.
use a fighting type.
Still can't win?
you're a lost cause.
On other notes I still think Kyruem is ridiculous as no other real 'counters' have surfaced for it, also I am starting to think sun is broken even without sawsbuck / victini. Eggy and Tangrowth are both seriously good as well as Arcanine and Typhlosion in the sun.
Charizard hits harder because of solar power, but yeah, thats ridiculous, and victrebeel is an awesome sweeper too, wth anything with growth is stupidly powerful and whitout drizzle to counter-balance it's crazy good, Thank Arceus Venusaur is OU or UU would be doomed
These are the most notable sun abusers, all with Chlorophyll and most with Growth. Growth giving a +2 Atk and +2 SpAtk in one boost, topped with Chlorphyll is hard to stop.
-Victreebel
-Exeggutor
-Jumpluff
-Shiftry
-Tangrowth (walls every sand abuser in UU, even OU)
-Leafeon
-Doredia (Butterfly Dancer)
-Sawsbuck (SD and awesome speed)
-Victini (we all know why)
*most haven't been used yet but the sheer numbers tell you that every team can be very different than the other and this are the ones that benefit directly, you have cresselia with Moonilight, Arcanine's Morning Sun and Fire Double STAB, Espeon's Morning sun and reflected hazzards, etc...
other weathers? hipo can't get in any of the abusers moves being most grass types, and even if he gets in Solar beam he has to get out and let someone else receive it and abomasnow is killed by vulpix or any other fire type o he is not an option, some smart guys stated running shed sheel and sitrus berry for more get-in-get-out chances or to not be trapped by dugtio (something you see comming form miles)
*on a side note for those that look in a victini-less sun enviroment, he didn't have v-create in PO and it was banned there (sun, not victini), so you don't have to follow the same route but at least see that there is a lot of sense in keeping him with sand and hail since they are not nearly as centralizing as sun
These are the most notable sun abusers, all with Chlorophyll and most with Growth. Growth giving a +2 Atk and +2 SpAtk in one boost, topped with Chlorphyll is hard to stop.
-Victreebel
-Exeggutor
-Jumpluff
-Shiftry
-Tangrowth (walls every sand abuser in UU, even OU)
-Leafeon
-Doredia (Butterfly Dancer)
-Sawsbuck (SD and awesome speed)
-Victini (we all know why)
*most haven't been used yet but the sheer numbers tell you that every team can be very different than the other and this are the ones that benefit directly, you have cresselia with Moonilight, Arcanine's Morning Sun and Fire Double STAB, Espeon's Morning sun and reflected hazzards, etc...
other weathers? hipo can't get in any of the abusers moves being most grass types, and even if he gets in Solar beam he has to get out and let someone else receive it and abomasnow is killed by vulpix or any other fire type o he is not an option, some smart guys stated running shed sheel and sitrus berry for more get-in-get-out chances or to not be trapped by dugtio (something you see comming form miles)
*on a side note for those that look in a victini-less sun enviroment, he didn't have v-create in PO and it was banned there (sun, not victini), so you don't have to follow the same route but at least see that there is a lot of sense in keeping him with sand and hail since they are not nearly as centralizing as sun
252 Atk Adamant Hitmontop with Hi Jump Kick vs 252/252 Bold Eviolite Chansey 70.7% - 83.5%
Things just got real when Chansey survives a STAB 130 base fighting attack and that assumes they don't even just Protect on you and laugh as you kill yourself. I use Hitmontop as example because quite frankly hes the most reliable rapid spinner at the moment who doubles as a powerful fighter.
Things just got real when Chansey survives a STAB 130 base fighting attack and that assumes they don't even just Protect on you and laugh as you kill yourself. I use Hitmontop as example because quite frankly hes the most reliable rapid spinner at the moment who doubles as a powerful fighter.
Guts-Heracross is a total counter for both Chansey and Slowbro, infact all guts pokemon pretty much wall Chansey.
Calcs for Oglemi's post aboveone page ago:
Timid CB Victini: 282 - 333 (92.76% - 109.54%)
Adamant CB Victini: 309 - 364 (101.64% - 119.74%)
Now add Fusion Bolt to its movepool and you've got one scary Pokemon.
EDIT: I've had this window open for way too long -_-
Timid CB Victini: 282 - 333 (92.76% - 109.54%)
Adamant CB Victini: 309 - 364 (101.64% - 119.74%)
Now add Fusion Bolt to its movepool and you've got one scary Pokemon.
EDIT: I've had this window open for way too long -_-
Okay, I just laddered up to about 1250 (as windong), and I haven't lost yet, so I figure I may as well post some thoughts.
Chansey and Slowbro haven't really been major issues. Despite me running an almost cookie cutter BlizzSpam hail, there are really solid fits on the team that deal with both. CB Kirikizan, for example, can force them both to play a guessing game between Pursuit and Sucker Punch / Brick Break (for Slowbro / Chansey respectively) and nether of them really likes taking repeated Blizzards from (Scarf)Kyurem, who's hitting Slowbro for ~35%, since they're all physically defensive, and can break Chansey if it's taken some prior damage.
But speaking of Kyurem, that, I think, is where the problem is. This monster in no way belongs in UU - it's hitting everything for absurd amounts of damage with its STABs, and hardly anything can switch in on it without taking a truckload of damage, usually risking the 2HKO.
Sun has basically been a non issue for me -- I've run into a couple of sun teams, but a bulky specsdra set I've been running has basically let me handle them pretty well, along with the fact that most stuff is too frail to like taking repeated Blizzards from Abomasnow and Kyureum.
Chansey and Slowbro haven't really been major issues. Despite me running an almost cookie cutter BlizzSpam hail, there are really solid fits on the team that deal with both. CB Kirikizan, for example, can force them both to play a guessing game between Pursuit and Sucker Punch / Brick Break (for Slowbro / Chansey respectively) and nether of them really likes taking repeated Blizzards from (Scarf)Kyurem, who's hitting Slowbro for ~35%, since they're all physically defensive, and can break Chansey if it's taken some prior damage.
But speaking of Kyurem, that, I think, is where the problem is. This monster in no way belongs in UU - it's hitting everything for absurd amounts of damage with its STABs, and hardly anything can switch in on it without taking a truckload of damage, usually risking the 2HKO.
Sun has basically been a non issue for me -- I've run into a couple of sun teams, but a bulky specsdra set I've been running has basically let me handle them pretty well, along with the fact that most stuff is too frail to like taking repeated Blizzards from Abomasnow and Kyureum.
1 0n 1 means chansey is the last poke. It can't be phased out.
This kind of close-minded thinking, is why people are so shut to realistic bans. I admit, I do not believe that any wall has ever been moved up (aside from Cresselia in gen 4 to BL).
Megahorn cannot ko defense bulky slowbro, without getting koed by psyshock.
@Windsong: Do you have a good call of when to do what? I play a similar set with Honchcrow, and I find the large amount of sub users to be an issue for sucker punch, while prdicting wrong could cost you the game.
I had peaked at 1250, and there was not a team I didn't see that didn't carry chansey, aside from two (one was SJCrew from this website).
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