np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[alexwolf]

I see what you might mean, but i'd rather not see a ban of ALL evasion techs. I'm kinda iffy about the Lax inscense ban even, because lets face it, evasion is a part of the game. at least with double team it's because any poke with substitute and baton Pass becomes god tier and with Minimize it's because of Clefable, ST Chandelure, and Blissey being broken with it. but can you honestly give me a valid reason as to how Snow Cloak is broken on Glaceon, of all pokes? let's face it, you aren't going to hit 100% of the time, but that's life. you have beef, use Coil of hone Claws or whatever, and stop bawwing about abilities that honestly are not hax, because otherwise people will bitch abou banning Serene grace or Static or something.

first of all i don't understand what you say...are you saying that with double team batton pass chains will become harder to beat or are you saying that clefable chandelure and blissey will be broken with these moves?


anyway does everyone in this thread undestastand and accept the fact that double team,minimize etc are not broken moves?
do we all understand that they were banned 'cause of uncompetitivenes(meaning introducing unecessary luck to the game)and not 'cause of brokeness?

 

[alphatron]

When comparing sand veil to brightpowder/lax incense, I'm still wondering why everyone waited 3 generations just to ban them.

 

[TheValkyries]

This has came up a lot so I just want to say that I think this argument is null and void. If banning Ferrothorn means Latios becomes broken, then we ban Latios too. If Ferrothorn is indeed the only thing keeping Latios and company in OU, then it's probably broken. Look at it in reverse - lets say (hypothetically) that Garchomp is broken. Should we bring down Lugia to keep Garchomp in check? Surely not. We shouldn't bend over backwards to keep a broken Pokemon in OU just because he happens to stop another broken Pokemon.

I just want to say how very much I agree with you here. Absolutely spot on.

I could write a goddamn argument on the centralisation around Ferrothorn. The most notable point is the death of the Bulky Water - a staple in nigh on every decent team for generations. Wanna explain to me why even the mighty Suicune is UU now, Swampert is a laughing stock, and the few that still see use are forced to run Hidden Power Fire (Rotom-W) or Taunt (Jellicent)? How about the fact that 10 of the top 20 Pokemon are immune to Spikes when using their standard sets? Why am I seeing Hidden Power Fire as options for just about every single Pokemon with a usable SpA stat?

And to those saying 'oh, i can ko it with fire attacks,' that's no good if it switches into your [Pokemon without fire or STAB fighting attack] and lays down a layer of Spikes as you switch. What this ultimately boils down to is (and I know I'm repeating myself here but nobody seems to have read my first post) I think having incredibly easy and convenient access to Spikes has a very detrimental effect on the metagame. Ferrothorn doesn't keep the likes of Latios and Thundurus in check so much as it makes them even more potent by providing them with reliable and consistent entry hazard support.

Reapply this line of thought to Skarmory, and see why it fails. Skarmory 4th gen and on is VERY similar to Nattorei, as he is a strong Physical threat, has easy Spikes, powerful recovery (while Nattorei lacks this he makes up for it in bulkier stats), yet no one complains of him, and he's only weak to one type compared to Nattorei's two. How is it that Skarmory gets snuffed, but Nattorei is suddenly to powerful.

All of the centralization you pointed out was valid, and I am obliged say yet again that I completely agree with you, but this time for the fact that centralization means literally nothing. Strong, commonly used Pokemon will always be adapted to. Plain as that. The only time it becomes a problem is if people have to go out of their way to stop a threat (Notice how it's ANY Pokemon with a high enough SpA gets HP Fire slashed in for the utility, not some obscure Pokemon from NU being dragged up from the depths to stop him, but I digress.)

As to your point about easy Spikes, I say to you Stealth Rock. Whatever happened to Articuno, Moltres or Charizard? You're saying the fact that one turn can take out 50% of their health upon switch in is okay, but getting one easy layer of (avoidable) Spikes isn't?

Let's face it, easy entry hazards aren't that big of a deal. You can adapt to entry hazards by simply not using Pokemon weak to them. If you want to use Pokemon weak to them, I'd suggest you run a Pokemon with Rapid Spin. Sure, Nattorei certainly has an easy time of setting spikes up, but so does Skarmory, and Skarmory even has a phazing move to make use of them. The only difference is Nattorei is better in the meta-game than Skarmory due to typing and bulk. so he's used more often on balanced teams.



Now, I have a feeling you'll mention Froslass of UU last gen, but here's the difference: Froslass had a lightning fast taunt, easy spikes, and spin blocked for herself. Nothing you could do, short of killing her, stopped her from getting 3 layers of spikes down, and keeping them down for her team. That's pretty damn powerful for only one Pokemon, considering entire cores of some stall teams are made to do the job that she alone could do. That's why Nattorei can't compare, he simply can't pull that kind of weight.

 

[Matthew]

Alright I don't get the "BAN SAND VEIL SNOW CLOAK" group at all. Comparing those two two banning Bright Powder makes absolutely zero sense. When holding Bright Powder your evasion is increased no matter what. No matter what happens, as long as you're holding Bright Powder, you have a chance of moves missing more often. End of story, null. When you bring up Sand Veil and Snow Cloak you have to consider that the positive weather must be up for the accuracy to even being able to take into account. With Hail being, well for lack of better terms, terrible all that's left really is Sand Veil. Most people forget that there are two other types of weather in OU (though the most common type is in fact sandstorm) that will completely render this ability as useless as Run Away when they're up. It doesn't matter that the person's evasion is increased during sand, they probably played the game to get to the point to a) get sand up and b) switch in their garchomp. Everyone and their mother runs slow-tar, so Sandstorm is usually getting up if you double switch to your Politoed or Ninetales. You see the opponents team before the match starts, you see that they have a Garchomp and a Tyranitar. Do you just let sand run all day every day? Do you give Garchomp the ability to switch in scott-free? No, Garchomp's defenses aren't what they were last gen, and his Attack stat is almost on-par with everything else this gen. So I really just don't see why everyone is complaining about it.

 

[alexwolf]

Alright I don't get the "BAN SAND VEIL SNOW CLOAK" group at all. Comparing those two two banning Bright Powder makes absolutely zero sense. When holding Bright Powder your evasion is increased no matter what. No matter what happens, as long as you're holding Bright Powder, you have a chance of moves missing more often. End of story, null. When you bring up Sand Veil and Snow Cloak you have to consider that the positive weather must be up for the accuracy to even being able to take into account. With Hail being, well for lack of better terms, terrible all that's left really is Sand Veil. Most people forget that there are two other types of weather in OU (though the most common type is in fact sandstorm) that will completely render this ability as useless as Run Away when they're up. It doesn't matter that the person's evasion is increased during sand, they probably played the game to get to the point to a) get sand up and b) switch in their garchomp. Everyone and their mother runs slow-tar, so Sandstorm is usually getting up if you double switch to your Politoed or Ninetales. You see the opponents team before the match starts, you see that they have a Garchomp and a Tyranitar. Do you just let sand run all day every day? Do you give Garchomp the ability to switch in scott-free? No, Garchomp's defenses aren't what they were last gen, and his Attack stat is almost on-par with everything else this gen. So I really just don't see why everyone is complaining about it.

that's why,if you read my previous posts more carefully,you would understand that we were talkin about a complex ban of sand veil + sand stream and snow cloak + snow warning...so that the abilities will be restricted only when their affects appear...

 

[ginganinja]

A complex ban on SS and Sand Veil is stupid. Lets face it, all this bitching is about Garchomp and only Garchomp. As somebody pointed out, its not the ability that breaks Garchomp at all. Its Garchomps, bulk, speed, high attack, access to SD etc etc which pushes it over the brink with SV. Seeing as its Garchomp which is the problem, we ban Garchomp.

 

[Matthew]

But it makes absolutely zero sense, to do that. They are not game breaking on their own, at all. A 20% accuracy increase isn't half as bad when it's only during a specific situation. Hell, people use moves that have 70% accuracy for coverage or to take out specific threats (you know who you are). I think before you are suggesting more bans like Drizzle and Swift Swim you have to ask are they truly game breaking? Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are moves that rely on luck to work effectively, and not even a good percent chance at that. Any strategy that involves luck (especially if this luck is so high) then it's not an effective strategy. I'm sure just as many, if not more times has an Ice Beam or Hidden Power Ice hit a Garchomp in the sand than it has missed it in the sand.

We should only ban things that are game breaking, not things that are annoying when they work.

 

[alexwolf]

to gingninja:
man pls make us the favour and read all the posts in this page before posting,not only the last one...taking each post individually and replying to it doesn't create a discuusion it only creates pointless arguing...
so let me say it again the problem with sand veil is not that it makes pokemons broken but that it is uncompetitive and doesn't offer anything to the metagame except luck...
for me garchomp+sand veil is not broken but it is certainly uncompetitive...

But it makes absolutely zero sense, to do that. They are not game breaking on their own, at all. A 20% accuracy increase isn't half as bad when it's only during a specific situation. Hell, people use moves that have 70% accuracy for coverage or to take out specific threats (you know who you are). I think before you are suggesting more bans like Drizzle and Swift Swim you have to ask are they truly game breaking? Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are moves that rely on luck to work effectively, and not even a good percent chance at that. Any strategy that involves luck (especially if this luck is so high) then it's not an effective strategy. I'm sure just as many, if not more times has an Ice Beam or Hidden Power Ice hit a Garchomp in the sand than it has missed it in the sand.

We should only ban things that are game breaking, not things that are annoying when they work.

then could you pls tell me why brightpowder and double team are banned???

 

[Deaga]

The most notable point is the death of the Bulky Water - a staple in nigh on every decent team for generations.

While I found most of the post to be very good and make some interesting points, I really felt the need to comment on this.

The same argument can be made for just about every defensive Pokémon on every generation. Pokémon of class X (say, bulky waters, special sweepers, physical sweepers, some specific type, whatever, as long as you can group them) are not used at all because common Pokémon Y counters them all.

You can use that anywhere. Fighting types sucked in RBY because Psychic types were just that good. Special Attackers were walled to death by Blissey in Advance. And another post already talked about Skarmory and physical attackers in DP. (Not saying anything about GSC because I really suck at it) In every metagame, some group of Pokémon gets the shaft. It just happened that Bulky Waters are the sucky guys of the month in BW.

However, you make a very interesting point about the easy Spikes and the comparison to Froslass on DPP UU... I had never thought about Ferrothorn like that. While I still think it's not suspect-worthy, I'll keep an eye out for it; maybe I'll change my mind.

 

[Eggbert]

It's not really Garchomp that's broken. It's sand veil giving it multiple turns to survive behind a sub (which everyone runs now!) and letting it beat past near 100% counters in Gliscor and Slowbro who could beat Garchomp easily if it didn't have all the free time.

 

[Matthew]

to gingninja:
man pls make us the favour and read all the posts in this page before posting,not only the last one...taking each post individually and replying to it doesn't create a discuusion it only creates pointless arguing...
so let me say it again the problem with sand veil is not that it makes pokemons broken but that it is uncompetitive and doesn't offer anything to the metagame except luck...
for me garchomp+sand veil is not broken but it is certainly uncompetitive...

we ban broken things. or did i miss something and instead we ban things we don't like or deem, 'uncompetitive.' in either case i don't see the point in banning something that isn't completely game breaking. it's also not really uncompetitive, since if someone has gotten sand up, gotten garchomp in, has sub'd enough for w/e to miss and then can swords dance to sweep your team then good for that person. he just pulled off his strategy to win. it's only a strategy that requires specific conditions and some move to miss, which mind you, ice beam and any 100% accuracy move is only 80% in the sand, which is around the same accuracy as Fire Blast. So....

 

[ginganinja]

Its rather more than annoying. SS is one of the most common weathers in the game and as such Sand Veil will "probably" be up. Should we all run Drizzle solely to prevent SV from activating?

As to whether its an effective strategy and check out some of the battlers. Sand Veil Chomp is very common. Heck KG makes decent use of it in his team. If the strategy "sucked" or did not provide a significant return then it would be not be seeing as much use. Yes its only a 20% chance to miss so long as the move is 100% accurate. Putting it another way its you, relying on Stone Edge, to hit (at least) 4 times in a row. for every miss, its getting a free Swords Dance (not to mention it got a free Sub/SD on when you switched to your "counter"). If you miss twice then its likely gg.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are broken. I am arguing that Sand Veil and a combination of things make Chomp broken.

to gingninja:
man pls make us the favour and read all the posts in this page before posting,not only the last one...taking each post individually and replying to it doesn't create a discuusion it only creates pointless arguing...
so let me say it again the problem with sand veil is not that it makes pokemons broken but that it is uncompetitive and doesn't offer anything to the metagame except luck...

except that no-one is whinging about any other Sand Veil pokemon such as Gliscor. No-one bitchs about them. Its only Garchomp which is so dangerous it sweeps you clean if you miss. Hence, its only really Garchomp that is broken

 

[Matthew]

Believe it or not I play a lot, a lot a lot. you don't have to run drizzle to win, certainly not, but running some type of weather is probably 100% necessary in this metagame. In fact it's almost silly to not run a weather as most teams are based around one. So, if you want to give your opponent free reign over the field, (unless you're running Trick Room I guess) then go ahead! I personally don't think Garchomp is broken at all. He's annoying, he's good, he's effective under the right weather (like most pokemon). I've played KG's sand team several times on the ladder, each time Garchomp tried the sub strategy and each time Garchomp was good, but it wasn't broken to any degree.

 

[alexwolf]

we ban broken things. or did i miss something and instead we ban things we don't like or deem, 'uncompetitive.' in either case i don't see the point in banning something that isn't completely game breaking. it's also not really uncompetitive, since if someone has gotten sand up, gotten garchomp in, has sub'd enough for w/e to miss and then can swords dance to sweep your team then good for that person. he just pulled off his strategy to win. it's only a strategy that requires specific conditions and some move to miss, which mind you, ice beam and any 100% accuracy move is only 80% in the sand, which is around the same accuracy as Fire Blast. So....

we clearly dont ban only broken thıngs....ıf that was the case then evasıon raısıng moves and evasıon raısıng ıtems wouldnt have been banned...
we ban 2 kınd of thıngs:
1.broken thıngs and
2.uncompetıtıve thıngs
and we ban uncompetıtıve thıngs ,cause they don,t brıng anythıng postıtıve to the metagame...they only brıng luck.and we dont want thıs.and no sand veıl ıs not the same wıth ıron head jırachı or aır slash togekıss ,cause these moves also deal damage except from flınchıng and requıre you do to somethıng...so they brıng somethıng posıtıve to the metagame!do you get ıt or stıll not;we dont want pure luck to the game because as a COMPETITIVE communıty we want skıll to be more present than luck.so anythıng that ıs based on luck alone ıs not wanted!ı am tıred of readıng stuff lıke when you mıss agaınst garchomp ıs the same as when you mıss wıth stone edge or when you flınch wıth ıron head...

except that no-one is whinging about any other Sand Veil pokemon such as Gliscor. No-one bitchs about them. Its only Garchomp which is so dangerous it sweeps you clean if you miss. Hence, its only really Garchomp that is broken

Not only broken thıngs get banned!
unompetıtıveness ıs also a reason for bannıng!the evasıon raısıng moves and ıtems werent broken but they were banned...can you guess why;;;

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Although I don't think ferrothorn should ever be banned, or even considered, I does bring up an interesting point, can you ban defensive pokemon? Aside from the various pokemon in BL that are considered defensively broken, in gen 1-3, which now is irrelevant because UU is formed diferently; only Cresselia last gen was ever banned for being to defensive, now it was clear that Cresselia was too defensive and overcentralizing for the UU metagame, I don't know the Cress useage stats, but it must of been centralizing enough that pretty much everyone used it, and everyone had to have been using it. Is ferrothorn diferent? If at some point it turns out that way to many people use it, and it has to be a pokemon that you must use to have a good OU team, it doesn't matter what it counters, it itself is broken. Some may argue that it could be a result of a overcentralized metagame becuase of Latios, but if Latios is broken, its broken, you don't keep a pokemon around to counter it. I don't think ferrothorn is at that point, but its not beyond the relm of possibilty.

 

[Matthew]

we clearly dont ban only broken thıngs....ıf that was the case then evasıon raısıng moves and evasıon raısıng ıtems wouldnt have been banned...
we ban 2 kınd of thıngs:
1.broken thıngs and
2.uncompetıtıve thıngs
and we ban uncompetıtıve thıngs ,cause they don,t brıng anythıng postıtıve to the metagame...they only brıng luck.and we dont want thıs.and no sand veıl ıs not the same wıth ıron head jırachı or aır slash togekıss ,cause these moves also deal damage except from flınchıng and requıre you do to somethıng...so they brıng somethıng posıtıve to the metagame!do you get ıt or stıll not;we dont want pure luck to the game because as a COMPETITIVE communıty we want skıll to be more present than luck.so anythıng that ıs based on luck alone ıs not wanted!ı am tıred of readıng stuff lıke when you mıss agaınst garchomp ıs the same as when you mıss wıth stone edge or when you flınch wıth ıron head...


Not only broken thıngs get banned!
unompetıtıveness ıs also a reason for bannıng!the evasıon raısıng moves and ıtems werent broken but they were banned...can you guess why;;;

This gets to the point of being dumb. You can throw out all the reasons you want to ban something, but what it really comes down to at this point is "we don't like it." Garchomp isn't broken, fuck, it isn't even uncompetitive to use in sand. I, personally, don't agree with evasion clause or the banning of Bright Powder, but the suspect voters seemed it was necessary to get rid of for 'uncompetitive reasons,' though I don't see anything uncompetitive in them. They're strategies that, albeit, rely on chance but they're strategies all the same. The metagame would most likely not transform into DOUBLE TEAM TOXIC STALL because that's simply not a good move, BrightPowder is also a worse idea on Sand Veil pokemon than Leftovers as with Leftovers you get one extra sub, giving you the chance for one more miss.

This isn't about banning uncompetitive things now that you're talking about a sand veil + garchomp ban, even if you do ban it Tyranitar is the most used weather summoner, you don't think that you'll eventually run into the same situation regardless if you use it or not? It seems like a completely unnecessary ban.

 

[alexwolf]

This gets to the point of being dumb. You can throw out all the reasons you want to ban something, but what it really comes down to at this point is "we don't like it." Garchomp isn't broken, fuck, it isn't even uncompetitive to use in sand. I, personally, don't agree with evasion clause or the banning of Bright Powder, but the suspect voters seemed it was necessary to get rid of for 'uncompetitive reasons,' though I don't see anything uncompetitive in them. They're strategies that, albeit, rely on chance but they're strategies all the same. The metagame would most likely not transform into DOUBLE TEAM TOXIC STALL because that's simply not a good move, BrightPowder is also a worse idea on Sand Veil pokemon than Leftovers as with Leftovers you get one extra sub, giving you the chance for one more miss.

This isn't about banning uncompetitive things now that you're talking about a sand veil + garchomp ban, even if you do ban it Tyranitar is the most used weather summoner, you don't think that you'll eventually run into the same situation regardless if you use it or not? It seems like a completely unnecessary ban.

fırst of all ı am not proposıng a garchomp + sand veıl ban.
ı support the suggestıon that thorhammer dıd,to ban sand veıl + sand stream to be used ın the same team...
and you say that you dont see anythıng uncompetıtıve behınd all these thıngs that have to do wıth evasıon...
and ı ask you ıf somethıng exısts ın the game only to make ıt less skıll-based ısnt thıs bad;you want such a thıng ın the metagame;
evasıon raısıng moves,ıtems and abılıtıes all come to the game to make ıt less skıll-based wıthout addıng anythıng postıtıve...ısnt thıs bad;do we play a game were we want to mınımıze unecessary luck or are we playıng a game were we try to preserve unecessary luck;
for me and,as ı can see from the evasıon raısıng ıtems and moves bannıng,for the majorıty of the smogon communıty the fırst one ıs what we want!!!

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

It comes to the point where people simply don't want certain things in the metagame, they just find it annoying and don't want it there. Doubt me? Its called all clauses, and the Ubers banlist, theorically we should be playing like VGC with all ubers are standard, Ubers is in no way an unbalanaced and an unfair metagame, but guess what, we don't! Why? Becuase we don't want to.

 

[alexwolf]

we all know that!there are 2 thıngs that we dont want ın todays meta:broken thıngs and uncompetıtıve thıngs!ısnt ıt sımple;

 

[Matthew]

fırst of all ı am not proposıng a garchomp + sand veıl ban.
ı support the suggestıon that thorhammer dıd,to ban sand veıl + sand stream to be used ın the same team...
and you say that you dont see anythıng uncompetıtıve behınd all these thıngs that have to do wıth evasıon...
and ı ask you ıf somethıng exısts ın the game only to make ıt less skıll-based ısnt thıs bad;you want such a thıng ın the metagame;
evasıon raısıng moves,ıtems and abılıtıes all come to the game to make ıt less skıll-based wıthout addıng anythıng postıtıve...ısnt thıs bad;do we play a game were we want to mınımıze unecessary luck or are we playıng a games were we try to preserve unecessary luck;
for me and,as ı can see from the evasıon raısıng ıtems and moves bannıng,for the majorıty of the smogon communıty the fırst one ıs what we want!!!

I understand what you're saying, I'm saying that even if you ban Sand Veil + Sand Stream you're going to run into it anyway. Garchomp is a good mon and Tyranitar is a fantastic mon. Even without them being on the same team people will use them and then you wind up in the same situation as before. It isn't like Swift Swim + Drizzle, Swift Swimmers, bar Kingdra, just can't really do much without their ability while Garchomp is still hella good.

It doesn't make the game less skill-based if you add the evasion moves + items in. It probably wouldn't do much since there are so many better items to use (Leftovers, Life Orb, Air Balloon, Specs, Scarf) and at the end of the day it's still a bad strategy that mostly lower ranked people will use.

It comes to the point where people simply don't want certain things in the metagame, they just find it annoying and don't want it there. Doubt me? Its called all clauses, and the Ubers banlist, theorically we should be playing like VGC with all ubers are standard, Ubers is in no way an unbalanaced and an unfair metagame, but guess what, we don't! Why? Becuase we don't want to.

The clauses are there because of RBY. RBY sleep was extremely powerful, having one pokemon asleep was basically just having a dead pokemon. Same goes for frozen pokemon since they never thawed out without being hit by a Fire-type moves. Evasion was just grand-fathered in through the generations without anyone really making an effort to change it. Ubers is for pokemon that have proved they are too strong that they are so necessary to have that the metagame would revolve around them and any counters or checks they would have (see: DP Garchomp)

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

we all know that!there are 2 thıngs that we dont want ın todays meta:broken thıngs and uncompetıtıve thıngs!ısnt ıt sımple;

I don't think you can limit it down to 2 things, there are a vast range of opinions out there, dealing mostly to what people want in a metagame.

Some could simply lable that in the uncompetitive section, but I think not, for example double team is in no way uncompetitive, it can be used to effectively stall and it isn't even that broken, it just that people honestly just don't want to deal with that shit. Same with ubers, Ubers is a stable metagame, in no way uncompetitive, but few play there, and even fewer would want to make it offically standard. Brokeness isn't off the hook either, it to has its fair share of opinions, you could tell people exactly how a pokemon might or might not break a metagame, that doesn't mean its a universal agreement that it should be banned.

 

[alexwolf]

I understand what you're saying, I'm saying that even if you ban Sand Veil + Sand Stream you're going to run into it anyway. Garchomp is a good mon and Tyranitar is a fantastic mon. Even without them being on the same team people will use them and then you wind up in the same situation as before. It isn't like Swift Swim + Drizzle, Swift Swimmers, bar Kingdra, just can't really do much without their ability while Garchomp is still hella good.

It doesn't make the game less skill-based if you add the evasion moves + items in. It probably wouldn't do much since there are so many better items to use (Leftovers, Life Orb, Air Balloon, Specs, Scarf) and at the end of the day it's still a bad strategy that mostly lower ranked people will use.

to your point about garchomp...you are true that the ban wouldn't fully get us rid of the problem but honestly what do you prefer?a metagame where anyone is whoring sd subchomp or a metagame where you may meet a sub sd chomp and you may have sandstorm to activate his ability?i prefer the latter!

and on your point about evasion raising abilitites and items i agree that they are not such an important case and they don't make the game so less skill-based(only a tiny bit)but it is a matter of principle...why let something that offers 0 pros but at the same time introduces 1 or 2 not so major cons?why let a player lose a battle that he desrved to win even if that happens 1 out of 100 times?it is completely unecessary...

I don't think you can limit it down to 2 things, there are a vast range of opinions out there, dealing mostly to what people want in a metagame.

Some could simply lable that in the uncompetitive section, but I think not, for example double team is in no way uncompetitive, it can be used to effectively stall and it isn't even that broken, it just that people honestly just don't want to deal with that shit. Same with ubers, Ubers is a stable metagame, in no way uncompetitive, but few play there, and even fewer would want to make it offically standard. Brokeness isn't off the hook either, it to has its fair share of opinions, you could tell people exactly how a pokemon might or might not break a metagame, that doesn't mean its a universal agreement that it should be banned.

as it seems we are talking about different things...i just told that bans occur in 2 situations so far:
1.on broken things
2.on uncompetitive things
there are also some exceptions like pokemons or moves that get banned 'cause they are not released yet or some more that maybe i am not aware of but the basic 2 reasons are the above that i stated!
and to close this what i think that people want from the metagame is balance(not broken mons) and competitiveness(meaning that battles will be won due to skill in most cases)!

 

[Nkululeko]

we all know that!there are 2 thıngs that we dont want ın todays meta:broken thıngs and uncompetıtıve thıngs!ısnt ıt sımple;

It sounds simple, but a lot of things built into the game fall under the definition of "uncompetitive" (this assuming by uncompetitive, you mean revolving around luck). For instance, Min/Max damage, which calculates possible OHKOes but can turn them into an always a OHKO after rocks/spikes purely based on luck. While I'm on that note, how about move accuracy? Whether or not Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Wow, and other moves hit is based solely on luck. And to the argument that RBY mechanics led to some of these clauses or the trend of adding clauses, in RBY mechanics were different from Gen 5 mechanics. Sleep counters can be gone in 3 turns or less, again based on luck, and freeze mechanics were also changed so I believe clauses should and are reviewed for every Gen for relevance and they aren't an issue. Back to the topic at hand, as you see, a lot of aspects of the game revolve around luck and with moves like Hone Claws, Lock-on, etc providing a check/counter to the mechanic as a whole I'm not seeing evasion boosting items/abilities as the danger to the metagame that they're out to be.

 

[alexwolf]

It sounds simple, but a lot of things built into the game fall under the definition of "uncompetitive" (this assuming by uncompetitive, you mean revolving around luck). For instance, Min/Max damage, which calculates possible OHKOes but can turn them into an always a OHKO after rocks/spikes purely based on luck. While I'm on that note, how about move accuracy? Whether or not Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Wow, and other moves hit is based solely on luck. And to the argument that RBY mechanics led to some of these clauses or the trend of adding clauses, in RBY mechanics were different from Gen 5 mechanics. Sleep counters can be gone in 3 turns or less, again based on luck, and freeze mechanics were also changed so I believe clauses should and are reviewed for every Gen for relevance and they aren't an issue. Back to the topic at hand, as you see, a lot of aspects of the game revolve around luck and with moves like Hone Claws, Lock-on, etc providing a check/counter to the mechanic as a whole I'm not seeing evasion boosting items/abilities as the danger to the metagame that they're out to be.

uncompetitive is something that only introduces luck to the game without bringing up any postitive effect.min and max damage may include some luck but they will deal some certain amounts of damage(min damage)so they are not pure luck.
all these moves that you list have a chance to miss.these has nothing to do with pure luck.you chose to use them so if you think that they rely on pure luck don't use them.all your other examples are in a similar boat.
and finally hone claws,lock on etc are not viable enough to be considered as competitve counters to the hax called evasion...

 

[Nkululeko]

uncompetitive is something that only introduces luck to the game without bringing up any postitive effect.min and max damage may include some luck but they will deal some certain amounts of damage(min damage)so they are not pure luck.
all these moves that you list have a chance to miss.these has nothing to do with pure luck.you chose to use them so if you think that they rely on pure luck don't use them.all your other examples are in a similar boat.
and finally hone claws,lock on etc are not viable enough to be considered as competitve counters to the hax called evasion...

It was a mostly sarcastic post.. Chances to miss sounds like luck... See how the ellipsis don't work? Anyway, since it's a pokemon forum I'm not gonna be all that serious but I was refering to the fact that a CHANCE to miss means that hitting requires chance. I was trying to say that luck is involved in everything but I guess sarcasm doesn't work here, anyways there will always be hax. Like the hax of Iron Head, chain protects, etc. Luck is involved in many non-broken aspects of the game so banning uncompetitiveness isn't a good argument IMO. That's the point of my post seeing that "without bringing up any positive effect" only brings up subjective analysis into objective policy