np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[alexwolf]

It was a mostly sarcastic post.. Chances to miss sounds like luck... See how the ellipsis don't work? Anyway, since it's a pokemon forum I'm not gonna be all that serious but I was refering to the fact that a CHANCE to miss means that hitting requires chance. I was trying to say that luck is involved in everything but I guess sarcasm doesn't work here, anyways there will always be hax. Like the hax of Iron Head, chain protects, etc. Luck is involved in many non-broken aspects of the game so banning uncompetitiveness isn't a good argument IMO. That's the point of my post seeing that "without bringing up any positive effect" only brings up subjective analysis into objective policy

yes but in all of your examples what you mentioned was necessary luck due to game mechanics.
uncompetitive means unecessary luck.
crits,high-low damage rolls are all part of the game's mechanics and all come to the game along with any damage dealing move.so they have other effects than introducing luck...in the other hand evasion raising moves don't do anything else except from inceasing your opponent's chance to miss.this!no other effect!pure luck!and the solution to this is simple...we get rid of the move...
of course luck is involved everywhere in pokemon but almost always it comes as a package with something else.well in the rare cases that it doesn't(anything that raises evasion)we make sure that it won't spoil our fun by banning it!

 

[Matthew]

yes but in all of your examples what you mentioned was necessary luck due to game mechanics.
uncompetitive means unecessary luck.
crits,high-low damage rolls are all part of the game's mechanics and all come to the game along with any damage dealing move.so they have other effects than introducing luck...in the other hand evasion raising moves don't do anything else except from inceasing your opponent's chance to miss.this!no other effect!pure luck!and the solution to this is simple...we get rid of the move...
of course luck is involved everywhere in pokemon but almost always it comes as a package with something else.well in the rare cases that it doesn't(anything that raises evasion)we make sure that it won't spoil our fun by banning it!

It's not luck though, it's no more "lucky" than you missing with Fire Blast. You use the ability, the item, the whatever to improve your chances of surviving, for a move to miss, anything. When you say zero benefits you mean zero benefits towards the opponent, which in a competitive game, is a pretty good things. However, while you're setting up Double Team or trying to sub down and let sand veil do its thing your opponent is attacking you and more often than not he will hit you, that's how evasion will work. It's not luck it's a strategy, how effective it can be is up for debate, and if it proves to be too strong (the whole game becomes either evasion teams and counter-evasion teams) then it can be removed. Anyway, this isn't really about evasion clause. This is about how there is no reason to do any kind of ban involving Garchomp's ability and sand stream, unless that is Garchomp is found to be too strong for the metagame to handle (which it isn't).

Also it isn't about 'fun,' it's about creating a stable metagame

 

[Nkululeko]

yes but in all of your examples what you mentioned was necessary luck due to game mechanics.
uncompetitive means unecessary luck.
crits,high-low damage rolls are all part of the game's mechanics and all come to the game along with any damage dealing move.so they have other effects than introducing luck...in the other hand evasion raising moves don't do anything else except from inceasing your opponent's chance to miss.this!no other effect!pure luck!and the solution to this is simple...we get rid of the move...
of course luck is involved everywhere in pokemon but almost always it comes as a package with something else.well in the rare cases that it doesn't(anything that raises evasion)we make sure that it won't spoil our fun by banning it!

Good luck vs bad luck, right...
Now seriously,

Evasion is a factor in every single attack without 100% accuracy(a lot of moves) and increasing your chance to evade the attack by items and abilities is no different and only recently became an issue. There wasn't a Brightpowder ban in Gen 4, as if back then nobody cared about luck, and let's not forget that brightpowder/lax incense/sand veil/snow cloak all raise evasion in the attempt to help your pokemon survive longer, that should qualify with "comes as a package with something else". If helping pokemon staying in for an extra turn or two(anymore and sucks to be you, it happens) is broken or uncompetitive than I am sorry.

 

[alexwolf]

It's not luck though, it's no more "lucky" than you missing with Fire Blast. You use the ability, the item, the whatever to improve your chances of surviving, for a move to miss, anything. When you say zero benefits you mean zero benefits towards the opponent, which in a competitive game, is a pretty good things. However, while you're setting up Double Team or trying to sub down and let sand veil do its thing your opponent is attacking you and more often than not he will hit you, that's how evasion will work. It's not luck it's a strategy, how effective it can be is up for debate, and if it proves to be too strong (the whole game becomes either evasion teams and counter-evasion teams) then it can be removed. Anyway, this isn't really about evasion clause. This is about how there is no reason to do any kind of ban involving Garchomp's ability and sand stream, unless that is Garchomp is found to be too strong for the metagame to handle (which it isn't).

Also it isn't about 'fun,' it's about creating a stable metagame

as you said if you hate relying on luck you can minimize the potential dangers by picking moves that have nice accuracy.but when the opponent is under the benefit of evasion you don't have any option other than to hope that your move hits...
any other form of hax is not so consistant and has solid counters!

for example if you dont want to miss with your moves then use 100% hitting moves...if you don't want your team to lose by iron head jirachi pack a faster poke immune to t-wave.and the list goes on...but if you want to counter strategies revolving around evasion sadly enough there are not competitively viable counters except very few moves that only work in certain circumstances...

why have a strategy that has no surefire counters,can be abused,and relies solely on luck on the metagame?this is what i mean when i say zero benefits to the metagame!i mean that for example the move double team increases your evasion by one stage and that only.see?that means 1 negative factor in the metagame and 0 positive factors...the negative factor is the luck and the postitive factor is anything that rewards the more skilled player.
anyway it has been proved what is uncompetitive and what isn't.the bans on the evasion raising items and abilities give us a clear picture of smogon's view on uncompetitiveness...any form of pure evasion raise is uncompetitive and that's all i care about!!!and that's why i want to get rid of things like sand veil not because they are overpowering the metagame...
also of 'course it is to reach a fun(and balanced) metagame...if it wasn't fun that people were trying to achieve then why bother with something that doesn't entertain you?in the end it is just a game.you play it for fun!if fun in pokemon means that the most skilled player wins then so be it...if in another game fun means that everything is messed up with no rules that's fine.we decide what's fun and what isn't and according to that we shape the whole metagame to match our needs for fun...

Good luck vs bad luck, right...
Now seriously,

Evasion is a factor in every single attack without 100% accuracy(a lot of moves) and increasing your chance to evade the attack by items and abilities is no different and only recently became an issue. There wasn't a Brightpowder ban in Gen 4, as if back then nobody cared about luck, and let's not forget that brightpowder/lax incense/sand veil/snow cloak all raise evasion in the attempt to help your pokemon survive longer, that should qualify with "comes as a package with something else". If helping pokemon staying in for an extra turn or two(anymore and sucks to be you, it happens) is broken or uncompetitive than I am sorry.

of course it is a factor but you and only you control that factor!noone else!you can chose to use inaccurate moves or to use more reliable moves.so if your move misses you cannot say that you couldn't avoid it 'cause you could...
in the other hand when u face something with evasion boosts the situation is entirely out of your control and that's the problem...you cannot control the game,the rng controls it for you in such a big percentage it's not even funny...
and of course your references on previous generations are completely irrelevant to the discussion and i don't have th answer them...
so yes helping your pokemon stay in for an extra turn with these ways is uncompetitive and you can feel sry!in this community at least...

 

[Nkululeko]

as you said if you hate relying on luck you can minimize the potential dangers by picking moves that have nice accuracy.but when the opponent is under the benefit of evasion you don't have any option other than to hope that your move hits...
any other form of hax is not so consistant and has solid counters!

I named moves that counter soley evasion and didn't even mention how knock-off, thief, or using weather to block the abilities. Besides, what overpowered evasion moves are you thinking of?

for example if you dont want to miss with your moves then use 100% hitting moves...if you don't want your team to lose by iron head jirachi pack a faster poke immune to t-wave.and the list goes on...but if you want to counter strategies revolving around evasion sadly enough there are not competitively viable counters except very few moves that only work in certain circumstances...

Running a counter in OU means that it will only work in certain circumstances, it's called having a counter. Besides, a few horror stories and annoyance vs brokeness doesn't merit banning. It merits being OU

why have a strategy that has no surefire counters,can be abused,and relies solely on luck on the metagame?

In what universe does Sand Veil Garchomp do all of that?

this is what i mean when i say zero benefits to the metagame!

It's starting to seem like things you don't like you label as having no benefits to the metagame. If Sand Veil and Snow Cloak make pokemon better, than the non-usual suspects with those moves are better, giving variety, which are benefits to the metagame.

i mean that for example the move double team increases your evasion by one stage and that only.see?that means 1 negative factor in the metagame and 0 positive factors...the negative factor is the luck and the postitive factor is anything that rewards the more skilled player.

I got one, i mean for exmple the move SD increases your attack by two stages and that only. see? No. It's sounding like 1 factor you don't like to deal with and 0 minutes you want to be bothered to prepare for it. Btw, spore only puts pokemon to sleep, but you aren't complaining about that.

anyway it has been proved what is uncompetitive and what isn't.

So far it's you've only said evasion moves. but if you remove "is uncompetitive" with "I don't like" and then I'll agree.

the bans on the evasion raising items and abilities give us a clear picture of smogon's view on uncompetitiveness......

You mean the suspect voters view on uncompetitiveness in regard to those items and not Sand Veil/Snow Cloak since there are no bans on abilities that raise evasion solely and moody doesn't count since only God knew what that thing was gonna raise.

any form of pure evasion raise is uncompetitive and that's all i care about!!!and that's why i want to get rid of things like sand veil not because they are overpowering the metagame...

So enforce ban only what's broken except leave a loop hole for when we just don't like it, nice.

also of 'course it is to reach a fun(and balanced) metagame...if it wasn't fun that people were trying to achieve then why bother with something that doesn't entertain you?in the end it is just a game.you play it for fun!if fun in pokemon means that the most skilled player wins then so be it...if in another game fun means that everything is messed up with no rules that's fine.we decide what's fun and what isn't and according to that we shape the whole metagame to match our needs for fun...

Balanced over fun. If skilled players always win then unskilled players aren't having fun... We're entertained by competitiveness and playing for purely fun is why there's banlist of OVERPOWERED elements to the game. We're not trying to get rid of rules, just abide by them to get to the point. Garchomp. It's not broken, even with Sand Veil, and the people who try to say ban Sand Veil are only trying to nerf Garchomp, plain and simple. And we shape the metagame for overall competitive viability and balance first and foremost, fun comes after that for reasons I already mentioned.

 

[Nkululeko]

of course it is a factor but you and only you control that factor!noone else!

sounds like a gameshark sales pitch...

you can chose to use inaccurate moves or to use more reliable moves.so if your move misses you cannot say that you couldn't avoid it 'cause you could...

If flamethrower wouldn't OHKO but Fire Blast would, and you're down to your last poke then i think you go for it, you effectively couldn't avoid it

in the other hand when u face something with evasion boosts the situation is entirely out of your control and that's the problem...

If that was true Garchomp would've been out before Blaziken

you cannot control the game,the rng controls it for you in such a big percentage it's not even funny...

Apparently not a big enough percentage to get banned. And if you can't control the game, then that means you have to compete to win, which is what Smogon does...

and of course your references on previous generations are completely irrelevant to the discussion and i don't have th answer them...

You're saying of course sounds like you're agreeing with what I implied about the subject in that post but whatever, I don't care either way and I was addressing sombody else iirc, sorry if i made you feel special, my b.

so yes helping your pokemon stay in for an extra turn with these ways is uncompetitive and you can feel sry!in this community at least...

No,if what you said was right than Chomp wouldn't be safe after three rounds of testing. Smogon has shown that the evasion boost with Sand Veil isn't "uncompetitive" by not banning it so in this community I don't have to be sry! It's sorry dude, and I accept your apology, I'm jk but see how annoying when people inject too much attitude into policy disagreements? Please be more civil next time ok?....No i

 

[changos]

.2 chance to miss with perfect acc moves means that at least in 1 out of every 25 matches to consecutive hits miss. For chomp that means 2 pokes dead and plenty of health to spare for the next pokes that obviously aren't as good as you initial switches vs chomp
now imagine that happening to you in a tournament final

 

[jas61292]

.2 chance to miss with perfect acc moves means that at least in 1 out of every 25 matches to consecutive hits miss. For chomp that means 2 pokes dead and plenty of health to spare for the next pokes that obviously aren't as good as you initial switches vs chomp
now imagine that happening to you in a tournament final

1 out of every 16 attacks you get nailed with a critical hit. It could cost you the battle. It could happen in a tournament final. And its even more common than what you just suggested.

So what's your point? Yes it involves luck. So does everything else in Pokemon. We don't just pick the luck we don't like and ban it.

 

[Raikaria]

As promised yesterday, I am going to explain more on my thoughts about Ferrothorn and Girantina, and why either Girantina should be tested in OU, or Ferrothorn should be tested for Ubers.

The key word being tested.

---

1: Useage

Now, I know that useage in Ubers does not correlate to useage in OU. However, it is worth mentioning that Ferrothorn is by far the most used 'OU' in Ubers, at #9, with slightly over 25% useage. Girantina is #16, with about 2/3rd the useage. This suggests, at least in Ubers, that Ferrothorn is better than Girantina.

However, there are less Fire attacks in Ubers, and far less Fighting-type attacks. There are also more Dark and Rock-type attacks. However, Ferrothorn is used more than Girantina, and, for the matter, Lugia too.

However, this is a minor point.

---
2: Case for Ferrothorn being tested for Ubers

I direct your attention to this post, which explains the case for Ferrothorn being too much for OU better than I could:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3486315&postcount=756

To put Ferrothorn's defensive stats into light, compare it to sthe main point of this argument, Giratina:

Girantina: 150/120/120
Ferrothorn: 74/131/116

At first, it seems that Girantina is significantly bulkier physically, and significantly bulkier specially. However, you then have to factor in the following:

Girantina has no form of recovery outside of Rest
Ferrothorn has Leech Seed, which works better due to his HP [Percentage-wise]
Girantina lacks any support options except for Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp
Ferrothorn has Thunder Wave, Spikes, Stealth Rock, Gravity, and several set-up moves.
Girantina takes normal SR damage, and is vunerable to Toxic Spikes.
Girantina is vunerable to Sandstorm

Finally; Ferrothorn's typing is better.

This, all around, makes Ferrothorn probobly a better wall than Giratina. While Giratina can boast of Will-O-Wisp, improving his physical bulk, he just does not have the healing and residual damage factor that Ferrothorn has, nor does he have the truckload of resistances.

---

Case 3: Girantina being Tested within OU

To support this, I think that it is best to provide some calculations:

Bear in mind, Girantina has NO RELIABLE RECOVERY.

All calculations will be using the EV set: 248 HP, 248 Def, 12 Sp.D, Bold Nature.

Choice Scarf Latios' Draco Meteor [Assumeing Modest]

84.7% - 100.2%

Choice Specs Latios [Assumeing Timid]

114.9% - 136%

Conkeldurr's Payback [252 Attack, + Attack Nature]

+0:
32.2% - 38.2%

+1 or Guts Active:
48.1% - 56.9% [2HKO with any form of Hazards]

+1 and Guts [Girantina could go for the Will-O to try and Cripple Conkeldurr]
72% - 84.7%

ScarfChomp's Dragon Claw: [252 Adamant]

18.3% - 21.9%

Scarfchomp's Outrage:
27.4% - 32.6%

SD Chomp's Dragon Claw: [252 Jolly, +2]
37% - 43.3%

SD Chomp's Outrage:
54.9% - 64.8%

Gengar's Shadow Ball: [252 Timid]
44.1% - 52.5%

Tyranitar's Crunch/Persuit on Switching Girantina: [252 Adamant]
37% - 44.1%

---

Now, those are all common pokemon within OU. On top of hazards, many of them can 2HKO or even OHKO Girantina. Throw in Girantina being vunerable to stall itself, due to being vunerable to Toxic Spikes/Toxic, and Sandstorm as well, and you realise that it is probobly an inferior wall to Ferrothorn within the OU metagame.

Obviously, this set is best handled by special attackers, but for the Girantina to survive things like ScarfLatios' Draco Meteor, it would be making itself vunerable to Conkeldurr, Tyranitar, and Garchomp.

The list above is also by no means exhaustive. There are Ice-type attackers such as Kyurem, Abomasnow, or Rotom-F. There are also some stall pokemon who laugh at Girnatina... Ferrothorn being one of them, adoreing to leech from his Base 150 HP, which would outdo any burn damage Girnatina may have started, and resisting both of Girantina's STABs.

However, the above shows that there are pokemon that are more than capable of handleing Girantina within OU, that are commonly used. Then bear in mind the lack of reliable recovery, and the inability to cause passive damage through any means other than Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, and the case is rather clear, that Ferrothorn, an OU pokemon is superior in walling to Girantina, an Uber.

---

That all said and done, the way I see it, either Ferrothorn is Uber, or Girantina is OU, because Ferrothorn is better than Girantina. One or the other needs a test, or even both.

 

[shrang]

@Raikaria:

+2 Jolly Garchomp's Dragon Claw vs Giratina w/o boosting items: 66.00% - 77.93%

I don't know where you're getting your calculations, mate. However, I think that stat is more of proof why testing Giratina would just be a complete waste of time. This thing can take a +2 super effective STAB attack (Base 80, but still quite good) from a Pokemon that has 130 Base Attack. Giratina can in return use Will-O-Wisp to cripple your Garchomp forever, or Dragon Tail you out for decent chunk of damage. Even a +2 Outrage from the same Garchomp is not guaranteed to OHKO (Close enough, but still).

Then bear in mind the lack of reliable recovery, and the inability to cause passive damage through any means other than Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, and the case is rather clear, that Ferrothorn, an OU pokemon is superior in walling to Girantina, an Uber.

Rest is usually reliable enough for Giratina, seeing as most attacks can't do more than 20% to the thing anyway. Susceptibility to entry hazards is also mitigated by this. Also, what is this about "no passive damage through any means other than Toxic and Will-O-Wisp"? What other passive damage methods is there? Leech Seed? So what? Toxic and Will-O-Wisp is your main ones anyway. If you're talking about Spikes/Stealth Rock, while yes, Giratina cannot set them up, he makes up for this by preventing you from removing them, like ever.

Also, have you considered sets like these?

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Bold
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Will-O-Wisp / Sleep Talk

or

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 144 Def / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse / Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Aura Sphere / Will-O-Wisp

Not something I want to see running around in OU. Pretty much Suicune on steroids. So much for your "Giratina is weak to stall" argument. You know what, I'm going to go test these in Ubers (Although Giratina-O is better for that environment, I guess).

Ferrothorn and Giratina are completely different Pokemon. Ferrothorn > Giratina is a near unjustifiable statement.

 

[November Blue]

I think that Raikaria makes a good point. I'm going to support breaking the mold and testing giratina in OU. Some people say that the base 680s are "obviously uber" but in most cases, it seems to be completely unfounded. The uber matagame is vastly different from OU, making a pokemons performance in ubers somewhat superfluous. The main difference is speed tiers. Almost everything has base 90 speed, making stuff like palkia a speed demon in the tier.

Everyone was screaming how deoxys-S was uber a while ago, but look at the usage stats. Kyurem has uber stats, but it's UU. If we test giratina, who's to say that it will destroy OU? How can we know anything? How can it be any worse than ferrothorn or cresselia?

I would support a Giratina test.

 

[Sy123]

Ferrothorn carries a weakness to Fire, people use Fire to counter Scizor, and this new gen has brought another reason to use Fire, which is Ferrothorn.
Steel types arguably are on top of the metagame, the outcome is people use more Fire type moves or fire types in general, in order to counter Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn among others. The simple 4x weakness to Fire is enough to keep it OU. I wouldnt support a Giratina test, but I wouldnt be against it either. If it were me, I would just keep Giratina in Ubers. In Ubers if you dont do well then bad luck, thats just how Ubers is.
By the way Blaziken is the newest unlucky one

 

[Matthew]

It doesn't even make sense when you compare Ferrothorn to Giratina in any way. It makes a ton less sense, too, when the 'proof' you use in the form of damage calcs is just super effective moves against Giratina, and calling it quits. Ferrothorn gets beaten by just as many, if not more pokemon, if you want to prove a pokemon is too strong for the metagame then don't compare it to Giratina.

On top of that Giratina has Rest and Sleep Talk, which even though 5th gen sleep mechanics suck, is still pretty reliable. Will-O-Wisp, Calm Mind, Substitute, a ton of moves. Giratina isn't even limited to special attacks, 100 base Attack might not be the most top-notch attack stat, but it's hardly terrible.

 

[haunter]

Yeah let's unban Giratina, so we can also retest Blaziken considering that Tina makes a perfect counter to it [/sarcasm].

Seriously the fact that people are suggesting suspect status for Ferrothorn and Giratina makes me think that the current metagame is quite balanced as it is. Also Gen Empoleon is 100% correct, comparing Ferro and Giratina makes absolutely no sense.

 

[RotatingAtom]

Balanced? Yes.
Fun to play? Hm.

Playing OU at the moment feels like playing Ubers. Yes, it IS balanced,
but it is balanced because all those ridiculously powerful Pokémon
keep each other in check in multiple ways. You can say what you want,
but I don't have as much fun laddering when all the teams I encounter
are basically just variations of 4, maybe 5 different basic teams.

Wasn't one of the characteristics of a desireable Pokémon metagame a
variety in teams and Pokémon that are used? Now, please don't tell me
that those characteristics cannot be applied to Gen 5 because they were
made in Gen 4. That would be bullshit.

 

[November Blue]

Giratina is better compared to cresselia IMO. Both have high defensive stats (150/120/120 and 120/120/130) and serve similar functions. Cresselia is UU.

Explain the differences between the two, and how giratina is apparently so much better. I think that they're similar enough that if giratina would be too much for OU, cresselia should have a huge presence right now. If people are bitching so much about offensive threats, why don't we bring down a wall to "balance" OU? That is, it could water down some offensive threats (i.e. rain) and make the metagame more comfortable. It seems like a better option than banning everything.

We could learn something from the suspect test, and we won't know where giratina stands (with certanity) unless we do it. It doesn't have to be permanent either.

 

[Conflict]

Fun to play is pretty subjective and shouldnt be used in tiering discussions.

Look at the usage statistics and you will see that Gen5 has more variety than Gen4.

 

[haunter]

Unlike Cresselia, Giratina has usable offensive stats and definitely a better type combination. It also has WoW and aura sphere to deal with TTar and resists Scizor's u-turn\bug bite.

Considering that Cresselia's UU status is determined by:
-its lack of offensive power;
-its weakness to both Scizor and TTar;
-its lack of useful resistances;

I don't really see how Giratina and Cresselia are even remotely comparable.

Fun to play is pretty subjective and shouldnt be used in tiering discussions.

Look at the usage statistics and you will see that Gen5 has more variety than Gen4.

And yeah, this is correct. The server stats show that metagame is pretty diverse.

 

[November Blue]

Unlike Cresselia, Giratina has usable offensive stats and definitely a better type combination. It also has WoW and aura sphere to deal with TTar and resists Scizor's u-turn\bug bite.

Considering that Cresselia's UU status is determined by:
-its lack of offensive power;
-its weakness to both Scizor and TTar;
-its lack of useful resistances;

I don't really see how Giratina and Cresselia are even remotely comparable.

Cresselia can use flame orb, psycho shift and trick, two moves that giratina lacks, to deal with ttar and scizor. It can use reflect as well, and outspeeds both. Lack of useful resistances? It resists psychic, fighting and ground and is immune to spikes. Calm mind fixes it's lack of offensive power.

I'm comparing the two because they're both extremely bulky physical walls. They ARE comparable.

Haunter, do you honestly believe that giratina is so bad that a suspect test would be a complete waste of time and upend the metagame?

Don't be so quick to judge the idea. (everyone, not directed at haunter.)

 

[Sajak]

If Giratina was brought down to OU, it would be used with Ferrothorn as the new defensive core, and then one (or both) of them would just be banned (again). Not that I'd be opposed to a test, but even if it did work out, I'm sure that we'd be right back here soon enough.

@JT_Swift

Cresselia has crappy offensive stats, making it very susceptible to set-up and Psychic typing is not very good defensively, even in this Fighting dominate meta.

Giratina has much higher HP, better offensive stats (100/100/90 compared to 70/75/85) and it's offensive movepool is fantastic. Simply having STAB Dragon attacks makes Giratina better off offensively than Cress. That, and Giratina has some pretty good resists and is immune to Fighting, and Cresselia's main draw is it's ability to tank Fighting hits, so Giratina clearly outclasses it in literally every aspect, aside from spikes immunity and maybe reliable recovery, but even then if Cresselia is out during Sand or Rain (which is going to be 30% of battles), then Morning Sun gets nerfed.

 

[SupremeDirt]

If you don't like OU go play UU. If you don't like that go play LC. If you don't like that play Ubers. If you don't like that play... do you see where I'm going with this? There is an abundance of metagames right now.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

I can't really see the logic for a Giratina move... Not at all.



I do agree though that Ferrothorn is an obnoxious thorn in my side. Not that it walls me to the point that I can not take it down, but because it is EVERYWHERE and it is annoyingly common. But its not really OVER centralizing.... I mean, its everywhere but I don't run certain "ferrothorn checks." I run a couple fire attacks, and thats it. If anything, it makes you run fire.

I ran fire attacks all over in gen 4 as well anyways, just because I couldn't stand Scizor (or any steel type really because I believe that they are a bull shit type).

 

[SupremeDirt]

I run Fire attacks always.

Then again, I run fire types who like to have STAB.

 

[November Blue]

I can't really see the logic for a Giratina move... Not at all.

Let me guess, Because it's "obviously uber" and someone else decided that it's too powerful for OU, so nobody is interested?

Bah.

 

[Redtype]

@Raikira (but other OU Giratina supporters as well) - so you're proposing a Giratina test if Ferrothorn isn't tested / banned. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe dropping "the" ultimate spinblocker to the metagame where a certain Grass/Steel spiker (which also happenes to have excellent synergy with Giratina) dominates the usage stats would at very least cause a massive shift to stall-based tactics?

Imagine Giratina running a Kyurem-esque set, and pair it with Ferrothorn. Something like...

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dragon Tail
- Will-O-Wisp / Hone Claws

+

Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball

I seriously can't think of anything that would counter this duo in the current OU. Spiking with Ferrothorn is incredibely easy as it is, but adding Giratina who craps at every avaliable spinner in OU is just plain mean. Trying to counter Giratina with Latios (the only Poke capable of outright OHKOing it) is not even an option because a) Giratina can scout your set with Protect, and if DM is coming, switch to Ferrothorn and add more Spikes, b) should Sub be up, another Sub and two Protects later it will have burned DM's PP, rendering Latios useless.

Sorry if this seems a bit chaotic but I simply cannot imagine Giratina in OU.