np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Raikaria]

It's nonsence to suggest that Ferrothorn and Girantina are not comparable.

Both are bulky pokemon, who require Strong, Super Effective moves to take down. Both can adjust their counters to some degree by running certain EV spreads, meaning that solid counters are few and far between.

Giratina would be an overpowering bulky sweeper if it were permitted. Ferrothorn is not.

Some people are forgetting Ferrothorn's Base 120 STABS, far stronger than Dragon Claw/Pulse and Shadow Claw/Ball [No Altered Forme Girantina is gonna use Outrage], Base 94 Attack [Oh look, only 6 points lower] and acess to Curse, and Swords Dance. Ferrothorn is a greater offensive threat than Girantina.

It doesn't even make sense when you compare Ferrothorn to Giratina in any way. It makes a ton less sense, too, when the 'proof' you use in the form of damage calcs is just super effective moves against Giratina, and calling it quits. Ferrothorn gets beaten by just as many, if not more pokemon, if you want to prove a pokemon is too strong for the metagame then don't compare it to Giratina.

Some people are forgetting anything other than Super-Effective attacks will not dent Ferrothorn either.

[I say some people because the quoted posts are not the only ones making these errors]

Yes, the two are different, but both spell game over if you lose your form of offense against them. Ferrothorn is more supportive than Girantina, yes, but it's a pretty good comparison, because:

- Both are mixed walls, who will not be taken out other than Very strong hits from Super Effective atttacks
- Both have useable Offensive Power
- Both can cripple the other team with ease, Ferro with hazards and Leech Seed Stalling, Girantina with Burns.
- Both have good defensive typings


Besides, my suggestion was just that, a suggestion, to spark debate. As far as I see it, both Girantina and Ferrothorn are easily comparable in their walling ability, and it's wrong for an aruably inferior wall to be Uber, while a superior one is OU.

Not to mention a pokemon which requires every team to run multiple strong Fire and Fighting-type attacks, or lose almost by default, requires a suspect test, in my opinion.

 

[SJCrew]

Both are bulky pokemon, who require Strong, Super Effective moves to take down. Both can adjust their counters to some degree by running certain EV spreads, meaning that solid counters are few and far between.

First off, that last line is a blatant lie; Ferrothorn's enemies are exceedingly common and can OHKO it on command. Even if they can be outlasted through copious amounts of switching, Leech Seeding, and entry hazards, they will still pose a threat to it every time they come in.

Giratina's enemies are absolutely nothing. You will not find a counter for it in OU and below. You don't even have to bullshit around with prediction and just to make sure it doesn't die too early; all it has to do is get in, stay in and not die. CM sets will sweep teams. Tank sets will make entry hazards ubiquitous and impossible to spin.

To illustrate my point here is the strongest Dark Attack in OU against Giratina's standard Great Wall set: 56.1% - 66%. Amazing right? And that's before Tyranitar is crippled by a burn and unable to threaten it ever again. Not to mention CB Tar is extremely slow and will never get a hit off of Giratina before it burns, so you basically have a 30% chance (Will-o-Wisp missing) of that calc ever happening.

Some people are forgetting Ferrothorn's Base 120 STABS, far stronger than Dragon Claw/Pulse and Shadow Claw/Ball [No Altered Forme Girantina is gonna use Outrage], Base 94 Attack [Oh look, only 6 points lower] and acess to Curse, and Swords Dance. Ferrothorn is a greater offensive threat than Girantina.

Fucking ridiculous. Dragon is the best offensive type in the game. It's not 4x resisted by anything and there is no Steel type that poses a legitimate threat to Giratina, to the point where you can get away with running only Dragon Pulse for an attack and CM right into a sweep. On the other hand Grass and Steel are two of the worst offensive types in the game. It doesn't matter if you have 120 base power attacks if your oppoent can easily switch in something that takes it for less than 20%.

Ferrothorn uses Curse! Fire Blast OHKOs!

Ferrothorn uses Power Whip! Heatran takes pathetic damage and Fire Blast OHKOs!

Ferrothorn uses Leech Seed! Then Protect! Fire Blast OHKOs!

How do you repeat this scenario with Giratina? Oh wait, you can't. Giratina is better than Ferrothorn in every conceivable way.

 

[shrang]

Besides, my suggestion was just that, a suggestion, to spark debate. As far as I see it, both Girantina and Ferrothorn are easily comparable in their walling ability, and it's wrong for an aruably inferior wall to be Uber, while a superior one is OU.

First, if you're only looking at the walling ability of both, you are omitting way too much information to compare them in the first place. Ferrothorn can wall a large portion of the metagame, great. Giratina can wall a large portion of the metagame (an even bigger one at that, but we'll leave that for now). Have you considered that Giratina can do way more than just be a wall? What offensive sets can Ferrothorn run? CB is the most it can do as a novelty set, I guess. Curse is way too easy to stop (Just ask Registeel, seriously). Giratina, on the other hand can run Sub/CM or just plain CM/RestTalk with near perfect coverage (Perfect coverage if running Sub/CM and Aura Sphere). Giratina can easily sweep your team as well as walling it, Ferrothorn is pretty much setup fodder for a lot of Pokemon with Substitute (Grass types eat you full stop).

Secondly, where are you getting the misconception that Ferrothorn is a better wall than Giratina? If you want, we can look at the Pokemon in our current OU:

Legend: G1 = One point to Giratina, F5 = Five points to Ferrothorn

1. Ferrothorn - Both Ferrothorn and Giratina can wall (G1 - F1)
2. Tyranitar - Since most Tyranitars are running Fire Blast, Ferrothorn can't wall it. Giratina can use Will-O-Wisp Tyranitar, so unless Tyranitar is CB and gets like 2 defense drops, Giratina is winning (G2 - F1)
3. Scizor - Ferrothorn loses to SD version, Giratina beats every version (G3 - F1)
4. Garchomp - Ferrothorn does better against Garchomp, but is usually beaten in the long run (Sub/SD + Sand Veil usually ends up with a dead Ferrothorn) Giratina loses, but that's to be expected (G3 - F1)
5. Gliscor - Stalemate between Giratina and Gliscor if Giratina is running a purely defensive set (Dragon Tail away), while Ferrothorn loses horrifically to Taunt + SD. (G3 - F1)
6. Latios - Ferrothorn can beat a lot of Latios variants, especially in rain, while Giratina loses horribly (G3 - F2)
7. Excadrill - Ferrothorn loses easily to +2 Earthquake, while Giratina Will-O-Wisps the stupid thing and laughs at it (G4 - F2)
8. Reuniclus - Stalemates with pure defensive Giratinas unless it runs Shadow Ball, while Ferrothorn is setup fodder (G4 - F2)
9. Heatran - Heatran can actually beat defensive Giratina through Taunt and Toxic, which is nice (G4 - F2)
10. Rotom-W - Can't do much to both, actually, although it can just Will-O-Wisp Ferrothorn and make it cry. (G5 - F3)
11. Conkeldurr - Ferrothorn is setup bait. Giratina laughs Conkeldurr (G6 - F3)
12. Jirachi - Walled by both, although Jirachi can set up Calm Minds on Ferrothorn (G7 - F4)
13. Politoed - Loses to both (G8 - F5)
14. Dragonite - Beats both, actually although Ferrothorn probably gets the better end of the deal (G8 - F5)
15. Thundurus - Giratina can at least take an HP Ice and Dragon Tail the thing away (Or deal a truckload with Outrage/Draco Meteor), while Ferrothorn just dies. (G8 - F5)
16. Gengar - Beats both (G8 - F5)
17. Jellicent - lol (G9 - F6)
18. Skarmory - lol, although Ferrothorn probably gets the better end of the deal, by Spiking up at the same time (G10 - F6)
19. Volcanora - Giratina resists virtually everything the stupid moth can throw out, while Ferrothorn just wallows in its own powerlesses (G11 - F6)
20. Starmie - Loses to both (G12 - F7)

So yeah, I really can't be bothered going through all 53 OU Pokemon, but you can see that already, Giratina is clearly a superior wall to Ferrothorn (which is to be expected).

 

[JSND]

It's nonsence to suggest that Ferrothorn and Girantina are not comparable.

Both are bulky pokemon, who require Strong, Super Effective moves to take down. Both can adjust their counters to some degree by running certain EV spreads, meaning that solid counters are few and far between.



Some people are forgetting Ferrothorn's Base 120 STABS, far stronger than Dragon Claw/Pulse and Shadow Claw/Ball [No Altered Forme Girantina is gonna use Outrage], Base 94 Attack [Oh look, only 6 points lower] and acess to Curse, and Swords Dance. Ferrothorn is a greater offensive threat than Girantina.



Some people are forgetting anything other than Super-Effective attacks will not dent Ferrothorn either.

[I say some people because the quoted posts are not the only ones making these errors]

Yes, the two are different, but both spell game over if you lose your form of offense against them. Ferrothorn is more supportive than Girantina, yes, but it's a pretty good comparison, because:

- Both are mixed walls, who will not be taken out other than Very strong hits from Super Effective atttacks
- Both have useable Offensive Power
- Both can cripple the other team with ease, Ferro with hazards and Leech Seed Stalling, Girantina with Burns.
- Both have good defensive typings


Besides, my suggestion was just that, a suggestion, to spark debate. As far as I see it, both Girantina and Ferrothorn are easily comparable in their walling ability, and it's wrong for an aruably inferior wall to be Uber, while a superior one is OU.

Not to mention a pokemon which requires every team to run multiple strong Fire and Fighting-type attacks, or lose almost by default, requires a suspect test, in my opinion.

Except giratina have best STAB, great movepool and 150 HP to offset reliable recovery issue(yeah he have 80 more HP in practice)

no giratina is way bulkier and way stronger(he have DM and outrage for eff sake)
Most people that blacksheep Gira,Lugia,Ho-oh(yeah they always get hit by this) usually dont know how they work so great in ubers that gave them the uber status they deserve(stare at someone(no offense just joking)

He can wall, and sweep with that lovely SCM set. The only reason its rarely used is because G-O is just better

 

[AJC]

people forget that ubers is a banlist for OU first above everything else the fact it's become a playable thing is just a result of enough things winding up in their to make a playable tier.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Key word, ideal. But Gamefreak insured that there are pokemon who obviously outclass most pokemon and are only checked by other pokemon of that class.

Don't think of it as solely a banlist for OU, think of it as a tier.

Gamefreak often fail in their intentions. They tried to make legendaries stronger than normal Pokemon, yet a lot of them are now playing in a metagame alongside Vulpix.

As others have echoed, do NOT think about Ubers as a playable metagame (although it is). It's a banlist for OU. The less on the banlist, the better, and Pokemon go on the banlist if they're broken in the metagame, not because "Oh, well GF wanted this Pokemon to be strong".

 

[Raikaria]

1. Ferrothorn - Both Ferrothorn and Giratina can wall (G1 - F1)
2. Tyranitar - Since most Tyranitars are running Fire Blast, Ferrothorn can't wall it. Giratina can use Will-O-Wisp Tyranitar, so unless Tyranitar is CB and gets like 2 defense drops, Giratina is winning (G2 - F1)
3. Scizor - Ferrothorn loses to SD version, Giratina beats every version (G3 - F1)
4. Garchomp - Ferrothorn does better against Garchomp, but is usually beaten in the long run (Sub/SD + Sand Veil usually ends up with a dead Ferrothorn) Giratina loses, but that's to be expected (G3 - F1)
5. Gliscor - Stalemate between Giratina and Gliscor if Giratina is running a purely defensive set (Dragon Tail away), while Ferrothorn loses horrifically to Taunt + SD. (G3 - F1)
6. Latios - Ferrothorn can beat a lot of Latios variants, especially in rain, while Giratina loses horribly (G3 - F2)
7. Excadrill - Ferrothorn loses easily to +2 Earthquake, while Giratina Will-O-Wisps the stupid thing and laughs at it (G4 - F2)
8. Reuniclus - Stalemates with pure defensive Giratinas unless it runs Shadow Ball, while Ferrothorn is setup fodder (G4 - F2)
9. Heatran - Heatran can actually beat defensive Giratina through Taunt and Toxic, which is nice (G4 - F2)
10. Rotom-W - Can't do much to both, actually, although it can just Will-O-Wisp Ferrothorn and make it cry. (G5 - F3)
11. Conkeldurr - Ferrothorn is setup bait. Giratina laughs Conkeldurr (G6 - F3)
12. Jirachi - Walled by both, although Jirachi can set up Calm Minds on Ferrothorn (G7 - F4)
13. Politoed - Loses to both (G8 - F5)
14. Dragonite - Beats both, actually although Ferrothorn probably gets the better end of the deal (G8 - F5)
15. Thundurus - Giratina can at least take an HP Ice and Dragon Tail the thing away (Or deal a truckload with Outrage/Draco Meteor), while Ferrothorn just dies. (G8 - F5)
16. Gengar - Beats both (G8 - F5)
17. Jellicent - lol (G9 - F6)
18. Skarmory - lol, although Ferrothorn probably gets the better end of the deal, by Spiking up at the same time (G10 - F6)
19. Volcanora - Giratina resists virtually everything the stupid moth can throw out, while Ferrothorn just wallows in its own powerlesses (G11 - F6)
20. Starmie - Loses to both (G12 - F7)

So yeah, I really can't be bothered going through all 53 OU Pokemon, but you can see that already, Giratina is clearly a superior wall to Ferrothorn (which is to be expected).

Tyranitar: You forgot the reason why Tyranitar all run Fire Blast. Because of Ferrothorn. Without it, they are walled to death, and so is the rest of the Sand Team, as Ferrothorn can beat Garchomp, and do a number on Excadrill, and beats Landros too.

Garchomp: I have no problems dealing with it with Ferrothorn, I just attack it instead of walling it. Gyro Ball and Power Whip deal large amounts, and combined with Iron Barbs, well, Gerchomp falls first.

Excadrill: Girantina dosen't exactly like +2 Earthquakes, and is outsped in the sand, which means it can only revenge or switch in on the Swords Dance. It hardly walls Excadrill.

Conkeldurr: Look at my post where I included the calculations. Conkeldurr's Payback deals high damage to a 252/252 Girantina, and then there's Guts to consider if he switches in on a Will-O-Wisp. Giratina dosen't wall Conkeldurr. Dragon Tail can be problematic, but not every set may run it.

Dragonite: Needs a Fire attack to win. Leech Seed nullifys Multi-Scale, and from there, Gyro Ball deals high amounts of damage. DDNite is slughtered as it boosts, and Hurricane-based sets arn't that strong, especially with Dragonite's somewhat average Sp.Attack. Against Sp.Def Ferrothorn, Dragonite's Hurricanes are a joke.

Gengar loses to Ferrothorn in the rain, as it can't OHKO, while Gyro Ball does.

Skarmory: Why does Girantina get a point, and Ferrothorn not, when you say Ferro gets the better deal?


---

Oh, and, as a side note, I had completely forgotten than Girantina got Dragon Tail to Phaze. Seriously.

That adds another dimension to Girantina, that it did not have last generation, as it can now prevent itself being set up on.

Disregard my prior points. My overlooking of Dragon Tail was incredibly stupid.

Although Ferrothorn is still suspect, IMO. The Girantina comparison is just out the window after someone pointed out Dragon Tail; and reminded me that it existed.

 

[Lucindril]

The only things in OU I can think of that beat both are Dragonite, Hydreigon and Reuniclus. Dragonite can get phazed out or burned, Hydreigon requires multiple switch-ins and very good prediction to take out both, and Reuniclus... well, as long as it doesn't switch directly into Giratina, it'll probably be able to beat both with enough boosts.

 

[elDino]

Guys, can we stop talking on about Giratina, as it's a pointless discussion since nobody is going to want it in OU. Aeroblacktyl's post summed up how ridiculous this suggestion is, and I think we should all come to our senses and stop going on about it.

Why don't we talk about useful bans. Reuniclus hasn't been spoken about for some time, and I feel it is definitely worthy of a ban, thanks to Magic Guard, the ability to set up on many common pokemon and also its ability to run two very effective but different sets: Calm Mind and Trick Room.

Discuss.

 

[Matthew]

Honestly Reuniclus is probably one of the least broken pokemon in OU. Sure, Magic Guard is a phenomenal ability, one of the bests there is. However when you look at him as a whole: Trick Room lacks the power of set-up that Reuniclus really needs, without a calm mind then he's not doing a whole lot. Then the Calm Mind set has raw power, which is really fucking strong, but then he lacks the speed, not to mention that Reuniclus just gets raped by Taunt anyway, an unboosted Psychic can't OHKO Gliscor, so Gliscor can Taunt, Earthquake / SD and then Protect off the damage it does take. Even then you have pokemon such as Volcarona that come in and pose a threat to Reuniclus anyway. Plus pokemon like Tyranitar who are faster than it and can hit it with Dark-type attacks.

I mean Reuniclus is good, but i'm not sure about broken.

 

[elDino]

Well, it was just a suggestion, and at least now we aren't talking about Giratina. Gliscor gets destroyed by Reuniclus anyhow, as if it switches in on a Calm Mind, it gets OHKOed, and if it doesn't it is 2HKOed. No Gliscor wants to take that much damage... Tyranitar is dealt with by scouting the opposing team with team preview, and then pressing Focus Blast after you send in Reuniclus, as most players go straight to Tyranitar. Everyone and their mother is running the mixtar set, and that can't do dick to Reuniclus, meaning that it wins that match up if you predict correctly.
It really only has three hard counters that I can think of off the top of my head: Scizor,
Jirachi, and Deoxys-D with Taunt and Night Shade / Seismic Toss.

But this is just my opinion...

 

[alexwolf]

what I meant was a basic example like a Ninjask doing Sub then DT for 2-3 turns before passing to a Mence and sweeping. or a Shadow Tag Chanedelure doing Minimize then proceeding to sweep or a Blissey using Mini, then sub, setting up Tox/WoW/TWave and Seismic tossing the target to death. these are examples of unfair and potentionally game breaking combinations which could be done with these 2 moves, which is why I'm behind this ban. but with Brightpowder and LI, it made everyone go "huh?"

a while back I made a topic about hax items like those 2, along with Quick Claw and the others. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82596 as you can see, the majority felt that all of these items had little to no effect on the metagame. yet I pop on the library computer yesterday and see 2 of them banned and I go, HUH????everyone was just talking about how they had no effect, and yet they got banned practically over night!!! and now you want to get rid of SV and SC, which if recall are the last evasion effecting techs left(in increase, anyway) not for brokeness, but becuse they set up hax combos.

the problem is that would open a huge gap to other borderline luck based techs-Static could be up to debate due to having a 30% chance of afflicting paralysis and going through typing and abilities. effect Spore as well, for the same reasons, but can also set up poison or sleep as well. Attract as well since it sets up SubTract combos that can shut down hard. Serene grace for Parflinch or guranteed stat drop, ParaFusion, Para Flinch itself, and so on, and so on. luck is a part of the game, that's a fact, and if we just try to get rid of all luck, it lobotamizes the entire game. you don't see People banning Peach players from using her Vegtable attack because she can pull out a Bomb-Omb in Smash bros., do you? if we ban SC and SV, it won't just start a slippery slope- it will be a bloody waterfall.

you don't get the point....i want these abilities gone 'cause they are uncompetitive!
i don't care if it's the first time you hear this term but it exists and bans have been made according to it already...
like double team for example...double team wasn't banned due to brokeness...it wasn't broken on everything(not even in the majority of pokemons who get it).it could be broken in a very little amount of pokemons but if brokeness was the case then the pokemons should have been banned and not the move...
so on to your examples:ninjask using dt?you say that he will use double team 2 to 3 times...how exactly?a ninjask with leftovers can make only 5 subs...so this means that even if you force a switch and you have a free turn to sub you have at best 5 turns to sub up....say you get 1 dt.when are you going to get 1 or 2 more?do you know that the evasion increase that dt gives is not big enough to grand you so many turns?in best scenario you can get 2 dt(and when i say best i mean perfect).how is that any better than 1 dt and 1 swords dance?it is statistically proven that only the first turn of use of any evasion raising move is worth it due to the decreasing efectiveness of the move when used multiple times...and with one use of dt you gain 20% evasion.the same as sand veil gives you.any extra use is wasted time as you can do better things than spam a move which has decreased effects with each use.it is much better to use dt once and then use sd.and even then 80% of the time the turn that you spent using dt will be wasted due to them not missing...

and anyway if you have 2 free turns to do all these for me it's better to use 2 quiver dances or 2 dragon dances than to use 2 dts....

you mention a minimize shanderra..how is she going to find all these free turns to use minimze?'cause according to maths in the majority of the time shanderra will not have enough evasion boosts to be invincible before she dies...don't expect that after 1 use of minimize you will be fine...your opponent has still a very big chance to hit you and kill you while you try to stack all these 'fantastic' evasion boosts.and if yoy say to me that you are going to bring shanderra in on something that can't hurt her at all i am going to ask you:why use minimize and not calm mind with nitro charge?really?what do you prefer a +6 evasion shanderra or a+6/+6/+6 sp.atc/.sp.def/speed shanderra?i prefer the latter...

as for your example of blissey i have to say that yes blissey is the most feared pokemon that can abuse minimize 'cause of it's astounding offensive potential...so you can minimize all you want while i bring in my sd roost scizor or my resttalker or any poke with reliable healing and immunity to toxic...which is a really big list of pokes(reuniclus,skarmory,jirachi,gliscor,gengar with substitute and many more...).

double team is not broken!it could be broken if it was allowed to very few pokemons and if this was the case then the pokes would have been banned.it's the same case with sand veil!it is an uncompetitive ability that only breaks(or is considered to break by some) very few pokes(garchomp).

all your examples in the last paragraph are completely irrelevant.you mention static.in what world can you compare paralyze with evasion?and static has plenty of counters meaning you just don't hit the poke with contact moves(same goes for effect spore).evasion doesn't have viable counters.
attract has viable counters.switch!you can switch for god's sake...and let's not forget the fact that attraction works only on the opposite gender...so if your opponent has the same gander as you or is genderless you have just wasted a moveslot...but tell me again how do you counter evasion?that's right you can't!

as for flinch and paralyze they are different from evasion 'cause they have purposes other than to create luck.that's the basic difference.evasion comes into the game only to introduce luck and doesn't have any viable counters that's why it is considered uncompetitive...other bans have been made due to uncompetitiveness(evasion raising moves and items)...

if you still don't get what uncompetitiveness means and you refuse to accept the fact that bans have been made according to this term then i can't say anything else to you....

 

[Matthew]

i don't think you actually get the point he was trying to make. You said that "Double Team has no effect other than raising evasion." He was listing moves that do the exact same thing, have one trait and that's it (spore, etc.) Something you have to realize is that Double Team was never tested in 5th gen, it was something that has been grand-fathered in since the start of pokemon. It's just been in every generation because it was there in Gen 1. We can't say if something is too-strong or not without testing it, and we really have not tested it. We shouldn't ban things because they're uncompetitive, whatever the hell that means, we should ban things because they are too strong. If they're uncompetitive and bad then they won't be used anyway. So it makes almost no difference.

 

[capefeather]

Sorry for bringing this back up for a bit, but I wanted to question the interpretation of Excadrill vs Giratina because I've used Excadrill in Ubers and Giratina is a huge problem to it:

+2 LO EQ: 55.5% - 65.2%

I still think Reuniclus is the closest thing to broken in this metagame right now, but I am leaning toward "not broken" for it. Reuniclus requires a certain amount of preparation for what is usually an endgame sweep, and the opponent can figure out the set by your behaviour. (e.g. Which Pokémon are you pressuring? etc.)

 

[StarmanXL]

Well, it was just a suggestion, and at least now we aren't talking about Giratina. Gliscor gets destroyed by Reuniclus anyhow, as if it switches in on a Calm Mind, it gets OHKOed, and if it doesn't it is 2HKOed. No Gliscor wants to take that much damage... Tyranitar is dealt with by scouting the opposing team with team preview, and then pressing Focus Blast after you send in Reuniclus, as most players go straight to Tyranitar. Everyone and their mother is running the mixtar set, and that can't do dick to Reuniclus, meaning that it wins that match up if you predict correctly.
It really only has three hard counters that I can think of off the top of my head: Scizor,
Jirachi, and Deoxys-D with Taunt and Night Shade / Seismic Toss.

But this is just my opinion...

Assuming they're running MixTar and assuming they right to it to eat a Focus Blast and assuming Focus Blast even hits. Reuniclus can beat Ttar yes but it's going to get shit on if it tries. Ttar always poses a significant threat to it so you can't handwave it that easily.

Also, Escavalier is a hard counter to Reuniclus, maybe even a better one than Scizor due to higher sp. def and lower speed meaning that it will move faster in TR against TR Reuniclus. Spiritomb is also a hard counter but nobody runs that anyway so whatever. I still don't see what the Trick Room set does that any other Trick Room pokemon doesn't that makes it leagues ahead of other TR pokemon.

 

[Ulevo]

Guys, can we stop talking on about Giratina, as it's a pointless discussion since nobody is going to want it in OU. Aeroblacktyl's post summed up how ridiculous this suggestion is, and I think we should all come to our senses and stop going on about it.

Why don't we talk about useful bans. Reuniclus hasn't been spoken about for some time, and I feel it is definitely worthy of a ban, thanks to Magic Guard, the ability to set up on many common pokemon and also its ability to run two very effective but different sets: Calm Mind and Trick Room.

Discuss.

Well, it was just a suggestion, and at least now we aren't talking about Giratina.

See, this is the reason why this thread turns in to a circus. Its as though there has to be discussion going; as though that if we're not trying to ban something, there's a problem.

The moment the monthly statistics came out, everyone babbling about Drizzle and weather in general shut the hell up immediately. Then they went on to ridiculous nominations like Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and even discussion of Giratina. Why? The arguments proposed weren't any more sensical before. They were brought up because people ran out things to bitch about. And now that we've come off of those, we're back at it with Reuniclus again? Something thats been discussed to death?

If you're going to bring something to the table, fine. But don't do it when you have no new information to propose, especially if its for the sake of stirring the pot that is this thread again. It would be nice if this thread was only active when it actually served a purpose.

I realize this is fairly rude and upfront, but the last couple of pages people have been grasping at straws here and some people actually entertain these ideas. It reminds me of a GameFAQS thread.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Some people keep giving reaons why X is good, but being even the best pokemon in a metagame has never been a reason for a ban. What you need to prove is that said pokemon breaks the game. Wobb was broken because it forced the opponent to choose between saccing a pokemon you want gone or giving you a free turn, and there was litteraly no way to prevent it. Brightpowder was banned not for brokenness, but for uncompetitiveness : luck is fine as long as you can work around it or it is a choice, but these forced inavoidable dice rolls, which is undesirable.

Which is why I would like to bring up sand veil and snow cloak. Let's not fool ourselves, this means garchomp, the only common abuser. While I don't believe him to be broken, its ability is uncompetitive, as it turns otherwise straightforwards matchups into a dice roll. When two players of the same level face each other, with an even team match-up, the garchomp user WILL get an unfair advantadge and most likely win on time out of five, and that's assuming it doesn't sub up. This is a completely different kind of luck than stone edge, as by using this move, you willingly give your opponent a chance to overtake you : desirable risk vs reward. In this case, garchomp gets a huge reward for taking with absolutely no risk, and more importantly, there is no safe, luck-free option option against him.

However, as I don't believe garchomp (or any other abuser) to be broken outside of that auto-win chance and a blanket ban would reduce diversity, i would advocate a Sand Veil +Sandstream ban. Please don't take this as the dreaded slippery slope of death finally happening : I think, as many others I assume, that "Weather abuse + Weather casting" is the only combo ban acceptable when you obviously need both abilities for the undesirable effect to appear. It is, however, the best solution as it improves competitive value without removing options.

 

[connoisseur]

Honestly Reuniclus is probably one of the least broken pokemon in OU. Sure, Magic Guard is a phenomenal ability, one of the bests there is. However when you look at him as a whole: Trick Room lacks the power of set-up that Reuniclus really needs, without a calm mind then he's not doing a whole lot. Then the Calm Mind set has raw power, which is really fucking strong, but then he lacks the speed, not to mention that Reuniclus just gets raped by Taunt anyway, an unboosted Psychic can't OHKO Gliscor, so Gliscor can Taunt, Earthquake / SD and then Protect off the damage it does take. Even then you have pokemon such as Volcarona that come in and pose a threat to Reuniclus anyway. Plus pokemon like Tyranitar who are faster than it and can hit it with Dark-type attacks.

I mean Reuniclus is good, but i'm not sure about broken.

Dude Encore Politoed(or anything really) trolls CM Reuniclus so hard.

 

[alexwolf]

i don't think you actually get the point he was trying to make. You said that "Double Team has no effect other than raising evasion." He was listing moves that do the exact same thing, have one trait and that's it (spore, etc.) Something you have to realize is that Double Team was never tested in 5th gen, it was something that has been grand-fathered in since the start of pokemon. It's just been in every generation because it was there in Gen 1. We can't say if something is too-strong or not without testing it, and we really have not tested it. We shouldn't ban things because they're uncompetitive, whatever the hell that means, we should ban things because they are too strong. If they're uncompetitive and bad then they won't be used anyway. So it makes almost no difference.

i get his point but for something to be considered as uncompetitive it must itroduce luck and only luck to the game and it must not have enough viable counters...it goes without saying that we have banned all these evation things 'cause they don't have viable counters.
so with that said,no the abilities that he was reffering to are not in the same boat 'cause they have many viable counters to be considered as uncompetitive,so his point is moot...
and on your second point.these moves and items as far as i am concerned were banned due to uncompetitiveness.they were banned more in a manner of principle(we are a competitive community and not the game 'roll the dice') than in a manner of brokeness.you have every right to disagree with this policy but i am totally ok with this policy and i am happy that we treat things like this.

Last I checked nobody whose opinion matters has brought up Tyranitar, only scrubs like yourself with little to no understanding of competitive Pokémon.

Now if you can decisively prove that Tyranitar is overpowered, then maybe I'll take you seriously. As it stands, all you're doing is making me consider increasing the size of my ignore list.

at least your ignore list is smaller than the list that we would make with all the people that ignore you...watch the way you talk otherwise this list will grow longer and longer everyday...

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

No going to lie, I have swept whole teams with Reunicles, but then again I have never used it and it became total deadweight. Reunicles itself is not that bulky for OU standards, psychic is a pretty terrible defensive type, I can only take fighting hits with it, and the occasional psychic, everything else usually 2HKOs it off the bat. Which is very important becuase it needs trick room to set up. And yes, I know about calm mind, but it plays entirely diferently. And even then, it only 2HKOs most of the metagame, which leaves plenty of room for something to come in take a hit, and take it out. Sure it can take a pokemon out on its way down, but so can any strong sweeper worth any merit. Sure it has few hard counters, but it has plenty of normal ones, pokemon that are faster and can take a hit. I only sweep whole teams with spikes support to turn those 2HKOs, into 1HKOs, but I need to work to keep that up, and almost any pokemon can sweep in the end game with the right support. Sure its a good strong OU pokemon, not broken by any means though, you might as well ban anything with high attack or special attack awell becuase they play the same too.

 

[Lucindril]

No going to lie, I have swept whole teams with Reunicles, but then again I have never used it and it became total deadweight. Reunicles itself is not that bulky for OU standards, psychic is a pretty terrible defensive type, I can only take fighting hits with it, and the occasional psychic, everything else usually 2HKOs it off the bat. Which is very important becuase it needs trick room to set up. And yes, I know about calm mind, but it plays entirely diferently. And even then, it only 2HKOs most of the metagame, which leaves plenty of room for something to come in take a hit, and take it out. Sure it can take a pokemon out on its way down, but so can any strong sweeper worth any merit. Sure it has few hard counters, but it has plenty of normal ones, pokemon that are faster and can take a hit. I only sweep whole teams with spikes support to turn those 2HKOs, into 1HKOs, but I need to work to keep that up, and almost any pokemon can sweep in the end game with the right support. Sure its a good strong OU pokemon, not broken by any means though, you might as well ban anything with high attack or special attack awell becuase they play the same too.

I'm not even going to bother pointing out how much is wrong with your post. You're either using an incredibly sucky Reuniclus set or seriously underestimating its bulk and power.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I use the trick room one, I am fully ware of the calm mind Renunicles, and I still say its physical bulk is nothing to go crazy about.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I'm not even going to bother pointing out how much is wrong with your post. You're either using an incredibly sucky Reuniclus set or seriously underestimating its bulk and power.

I'll meet you halfway with this post.

Scarf, I agree that you are underestimating his bulk. Have you ever actually taken a T-tar CBcrunch? I've done so with my Reuniclus to scout what move it would use against me. I survived most crunches, (A few crits :P) recovered back some of the damage I took and switched out knowing there was nothing it could do against me. If it pursuits, I'll recover back most of the damage I took and proceed to Focus Blast them to the face. Sure it's a risky move but Reuniclus has the bulk to survive a T-tar CB crunch. That says alot to its bulk.

However that's halfway and I'd have to agree with Scarf about his power. It's being overestimated. I've swept though Stall teams before. Every CM reuniclus does it at least once but through a combination of checks, counters, and playing around my Reuniclus, it's been beaten. I've even had a full stall team beat my reuniclus through 2 taunt users and my opponent saving their check to my reuniclus to the very end of the battle. I was beaten and congragulated my opponent for beating a reuniclus with their full stall team. It's by no means powerful enough to sweep whole teams in a way that it's easily played around so that you can't set up with it to sweep.

Any smart player can beat Reuniclus.

Edit: The majority of people crying over Reuniclus' ban do so because of CM Reuniclus. Most don't really care about the TR version. You should try the CM version. Better yet, just use a full stall team.

I will now go back into the shadows, lurking. You know how I do.

 

[ginganinja]

@Scarf

TR Reuniclus does not have perfect bulk on the other hand its not meant to. You switch in on something that cannot tough it, Ferro, Conk etc or come in after a KO. Yes it wil get 2KOed but once TR is up you are OHKOing pretty much everything (bar Scizor Jirachi and Excavilar). Not to mention it does an excellent Job of breaking down the opponents team. The CM Version can survive a CB Crunch while the TR set cannot take a Crunch but flat out OHKOs with Focus Blast. At a guess you are trying to play TR Reuniclus as a CM Reuniclus which is probs why you are underestimating its bulk/power

 

[Mishra]

The moment the monthly statistics came out, everyone babbling about Drizzle and weather in general went to go play UU. Then they went on to ridiculous nominations like Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and even discussion of Giratina. Why? The arguments proposed weren't any more sensical before. They were brought up because people ran out things to bitch about. And now that we've come off of those, we're back at it with Reuniclus again? Something thats been discussed to death?

Fixed.

UU does not have the weather wars garbage OU does, and once Vicini is gone, it is expect to be a lot more even. You want to run weather? You are either going to have to run abomasnow, hippopatos, or vulpix. I felt trying to convince most of you OU is far too weather dominant is a lost cause, so a good portion of us just went to UU.