np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Blackdragonking]

Forgive me if this seems laughably misinformed, but wouldn't it be possible to use Scarf Haxorus as a check to sub-spamming Garchomps relying on Sand Veil hax?

Mold Breaker suppresses Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and other attack-hindering abilities, and Haxorus is the only dragon besides Garchomp that learns Double Chop, a sub-destroying attack second only to Icicle Spear in effectiveness against Garchomp. Not to mention since the subs mean Garchomp isn't scarfed, Scarf Haxorus outspeeds it handily and can power through its defenses.

It's not even running a bad pokemon to counter a specific strategy, since Scarf Haxorus is a pretty powerful revenge killer. I'm just noting that a fairly overlooked OU dragon seems like it could be useful for the problem people have with Garchomp. Even if it doesn't kill it, that Double Chop is going to put a hell of a dent in Garchomp's subbing and sweeping prospects.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

if you want to talk serious let me know...

We're talking about TorchicBlaziken here... But he still has a point; Dodrio using Thrash to activate Tangled Feet is as ineffective as Sub Chomp using Brightpowder instead of Leftovers, and yet one got banned for violating Evasion Clause and the other didn't, which is even more absurd because it's worse than a Evasion boost (or two... or three...).

I believe the people who wanted an absolute ban on Sand Veil and/or snow Cloak have completely disappeared, and for good reason. Stop arguing with imaginary opponents.

Fine. You first. Stop talking about imaginary problems, then.

 

[alexwolf]

We're talking about TorchicBlaziken here... But he still has a point; Dodrio using Thrash to activate Tangled Feet is as ineffective as Sub Chomp using Brightpowder instead of Lefovers.

ok if you want me to answer seriously then here it goes.

for tangled feet to have any effect dodrio must use thrash and 2 to 3 turns must pass before he gets confused.
so there are plenty of counters to this strategy.
first fo all you could always switch into a ghost to prevent thrash from working.and a lot of teams carry ghosts to spin block anyway(or just because they benefit from the type synergy that they provide).
then before dodrio gets the evasion boost 2 to 3 turns must pass which means that even if you don't have a ghost you can always send a normal resistant poke to take the first hit and then kill dodrio in the second turn(killing dodrio is a piece of cake).so no in a competitive battle dodrio wouldn't even get the evasion boost before it died...

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

BrightPowder is only good on Cacturne, and even then, it's because Cacturne relies on it just to stay alive, and it isn't so good in OU, and doesn't have strong STAB attacks to use unlike Garchomp. Garchomp would rather hold other items. In the end, it was banned because it was an option and they were annoyed about it.

I also disagree with the method by which it was banned. It is banned from even Ubers, home to Shaymin's Sky Forme, Moody Pokémon, and formerly Garchomp itself, which strikes me as odd. If they had to ban it, why ban it from even Ubers?

 

[Thorhammer]

BrightPowder is only good on Cacturne, and even then, it's because Cacturne relies on it just to stay alive, and it isn't so good in OU, and doesn't have strong STAB attacks to use unlike Garchomp. Garchomp would rather hold other items. In the end, it was banned because it was an option and they were annoyed about it.

I also disagree with the method by which it was banned. It is banned from even Ubers, home to Shaymin's Sky Forme, Moody Pokémon, and formerly Garchomp itself, which strikes me as odd. If they had to ban it, why ban it from even Ubers?

Brightpowder and Lax Incense were added to the Evasion Clause, which applies equally to all tiers, because uncompetitiveness is equal in all tiers and metagames, regardless of what Pokemon may or may not be able to take advantage of it in that particular tier.

 

[Nkululeko]

if you want to talk serious let me know...

You can flame me over pms so let's go.

while i support the complex ban of sand veil +sand stream i agree with Shining Kestral that this ban is not so important and doesn't require a lot of attention...
but i thought that this is the right time to discuss about it since there are no other suspects as of now except than garchomp,who anyway wouldn't be suspect if the above complex ban was made!...

Sand Veil and Sandstream aren't having the effect on the meta that Drizzle and Swift Swim had. We shouldn't be constantly looking for suspects if nothing is outrageously broken(where are the people saying the meta is diverse when you need 'em?) or trying to nerf pokemon into OU by crippling their only ability. If Chomp is broken, state your argument as to why it doesn't have counters and is overpowering/over-centralizing and I'll listen. But it's tricky w/Chomp seeing how centralizing in Gen 4 and is nowhere near that broken now.

i also agree with Gen. Empoleon that the whole suspect testing should be delayed as the metagame is fine as it is now(the sand veil + sand stream is not such an important ban).but if we have the suspect test in process and there are not serious suspects why not discuss the less importants suspects like sand veil etc...

I've made my support of a stay on suspect testing very clear. My only objection is that when saying:

but if we have the suspect test in process and there are not serious suspects why not discuss the less importants suspects like sand veil etc...

It sounds as if it isn't broken but simply just annoying. Debate if Sand veil is broken, sure, but under the assumption of it not being "serious," it comes across as if we are considering to ban something for the sake of considering to ban something.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Most of you guys are retarded (the fun game is trying to talk yourself into thinking I don't mean you)!

That whole BP/LI ban shit was cause it's from a combination of that + every characteristic Garchomp had made it 'unfair' and the lesser Pokes just happen to suffer the consequence of it. The same will be true if there does end up a SV+Sand ban. No one gives a fuck about Cacturne and Sandslash and etc etc. -_-

 

[rtc3]

Most of you guys are retarded (the fun game is trying to talk yourself into thinking I don't mean you)!

That whole BP/LI ban shit was cause it's from a combination of that + every characteristic Garchomp had made it 'unfair' and the lesser Pokes just happen to suffer the consequence of it. The same will be true if there does end up a SV+Sand ban. No one gives a fuck about Cacturne and Sandslash and etc etc. -_-

agree 100%. 150% on the retarded part actually

If chomp gets banned, we might as well bring back BP/LI even without a re test since no one will be complaining about that shit.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Brightpowder and Lax Incense were added to the Evasion Clause, which applies equally to all tiers, because uncompetitiveness is equal in all tiers and metagames, regardless of what Pokemon may or may not be able to take advantage of it in that particular tier.

Yeah, uncompetitiveness is so "equal" no one even cares except when it's Garchomp in OU and huhhhh Froslass in UU? Yeah, seems right. Besides, your argument about no one wanting to blanket ban Sand Veil anymore made me think a bit. You want a SS+SV complex ban so we get rid of an uncompetitive factor so we have consistency (because seriously if it weren't for Chomp/Lass this matter wouldn't even exist and you know it) in the Evasion Clause and whatever, but... This complex ban would have to be applied to Gen III/IV too! After all, if Sand Veil is uncompetitive and uncompetitiveness is equal in all tiers and metagames, then we should disallow Tyranitar+Cacturne in ADV too. You know, consistency. Also, Garchomp+Tyranitar in DPPt (granted, Tyranitar isn't THAT common in Ubers, but still). Froslass+Abomasnow, as shitty a combo as it could be in DPPt OU, would be banned too. All because people think we have to have consistency regarding a matter no one really cares and is, in some cases, a clearly inferior option, or less "haxy"/uncompetitive than others (Excadrill hoping for a Rock Slide flinch against Gliscor...).

If we "have" to ban or complex ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, then let's just be honest with ourselves and do so because we don't like it, instead of trying to cover it with some "uncompetitive" argument. In the end, only competitively relevant pokémon matter, and some of them wouldn't even come close to broken in any tier or metagame they're allowed on with their evasion abilities activated, so how about we focus on the real abusers (read: Chomp/Froslass) instead of trying to put the blame in the ability for it being "uncompetitive"?

How about we try to fix what's broken instead of trying to make things seem as such?

Most of you guys are retarded (the fun game is trying to talk yourself into thinking I don't mean you)!

...Eh, the whole thread is retarded anyway *shrugs*

was that a cool enough move????

 

[jas61292]

Most of you guys are retarded (the fun game is trying to talk yourself into thinking I don't mean you)!

Your just made my day. And yes, I agree with the rest of your post too.

Trying to compare the Items ban with a potential ability ban by referencing Cacturne and stuff is just stupid. All people really care about is Garchomp, so stop trying to hide behind Cacturne and other such things. If you think Garchomp is broken, say so, don't say that it's ability is bad because it breaks Cacturne, cause it doesn't. The real argument is Garchomp and only Garchomp, so stop trying to pretend it's not.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, uncompetitiveness is so "equal" no one even cares except when it's Garchomp in OU and huhhhh Froslass in UU? Yeah, seems right. Besides, your argument about no one wanting to blanket ban Sand Veil anymore made me think a bit. You want a SS+SV complex ban so we get rid of an uncompetitive factor so we have consistency (because seriously if it weren't for Chomp/Lass this matter wouldn't even exist and you know it) in the Evasion Clause and whatever, but... This complex ban would have to be applied to Gen III/IV too! After all, if Sand Veil is uncompetitive and uncompetitiveness is equal in all tiers and metagames, then we should disallow Tyranitar+Cacturne in ADV too. You know, consistency. Also, Garchomp+Tyranitar in DPPt (granted, Tyranitar isn't THAT common in Ubers, but still). Froslass+Abomasnow, as shitty a combo as it could be in DPPt OU, would be banned too. All because people think we have to have consistency regarding a matter no one really cares and is, in some cases, a clearly inferior option, or less "haxy"/uncompetitive than others (Excadrill hoping for a Rock Slide flinch against Gliscor...).

If we "have" to ban or complex ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, then let's just be honest with ourselves and do so because we don't like it, instead of trying to cover it with some "uncompetitive" argument. In the end, only competitively relevant pokémon matter, and some of them wouldn't even come close to broken in any tier or metagame they're allowed on with their evasion abilities activated, so how about we focus on the real abusers (read: Chomp/Froslass) instead of trying to put the blame in the ability for it being "uncompetitive"?

How about we try to fix what's broken instead of trying to make things seem as such?

so why the evasion clause was implemented?
double team or minimize definitely are not broken on the majority of pokemons that learn it,but we banned it anyway...
according to your logic the right thing that we should do is to test everything with these moves and if something is broken with them then we ban the pokemon!so from what you say i get that you want the evasion raising moves unbanned...

 

[jds24]

Forgive me if this seems laughably misinformed, but wouldn't it be possible to use Scarf Haxorus as a check to sub-spamming Garchomps relying on Sand Veil hax?

Mold Breaker suppresses Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and other attack-hindering abilities, and Haxorus is the only dragon besides Garchomp that learns Double Chop, a sub-destroying attack second only to Icicle Spear in effectiveness against Garchomp. Not to mention since the subs mean Garchomp isn't scarfed, Scarf Haxorus outspeeds it handily and can power through its defenses.

I feel this was an extremely valid point that got overlooked. Max speed sub chomp (the poke in question, clocking in at 333) is outsped by many pokes in the ridiculous fast 5th gen meta we have now. It's "hax" is at most annoying, and no team should be relying on it for a win. Many pokes are faster and very common (cough cough excadrill) and there are lots of bulky counters to Garchomp (cough cough quagsire, Slowbro, most steels, ferrothorn is extremely popular ranking in at #1 in usage in OU, although it's not the best counter). Garchomps defenses aren't too high, and it can't take a hit very well if it's not behind a sub.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

so why the evasion clause was implemented?
double team or minimize definitely are not broken on the majority of pokemons that learn it,but we banned it anyway...
according to your logic the right thing that we should do is to test everything with these moves and if something is broken with them then we ban the pokemon!so from what you say i get that you want the evasion raising moves unbanned...

Evasion Clause in RBY: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???.
Evasion Clause in GSC: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???. BrightPowder is allowed because ?????.
Evasion Clause in ADV: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???. BrightPowder, Lax Incense, Sand Veil are allowed because ?????.
Evasion Clause in DPPt: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???. BrightPowder, Lax Incense, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak are allowed because ?????.


Evasion Clause only ever specifically mentioned Double Team (and lol Minimize) because it has been grandfathered from RBY since GSC. There has been nothing, nothing in ten or so years of Pokémon play that made us ban BrightPowder, which exists since GSC, for it violating Evasion Clause, because Evasion Clause was specifically made for those two Evasion-boosting moves. Now, even though Leftovers is the superior option in a Subs abuser, we banned BrightPowder and lol Lax Incense (come on 5% Evasion what the hell guys) because "they violated the Clause", so we retroactively banned those two in every gen, since GSC, in every tier, from NU to Ubers, because a 4th Gen pokémon is annoying us in a Sand-ridden metagame by spamming Subs and miraculously missing our Ice Beams while dancing with swords like the cocksucking shark it is.

Now I ask you, why the hell. Why the hell are we doing this. What has happened in fourteen months of pokémoning to make us apply a ban to ten years of Pokémon. No we can't blame Rising Dusk, because it was the community who banned them "trying to follow the Clause". The only problem people had with BrightPowder was that they didn't like to see the "Garchomp avoided the attack like a smug motherfucker!" message, yet they never stopped to think their opponent wasn't even using Garchomp's best item for Sand hax. Sooooo, instead of banning something for being broken, we banned it for being... "uncompetitive". Which means, "I'm annoyed by it".

Many people believed Sand Veil was the cherry on top for Garchomp's brokeness in DPPt, and now it's... the main reason both sides even argue about it. What has made Sand Veil be worse this Gen for it to be so much more prominent? Or was it that we didn't even bother with it because Garchomp had many more broken aspects, so Sand Veil used to pale in comparison? But if Garchomp isn't broken anymore except for Sand Veil, doesn't it mean... Garchomp is still broken? This is akin to the Drizzle+SwSw or SB Blaziken argument; why would we restrict shitty pokémon such as Sand Veil Cacturne so Garchomp can still be used? Is it because we want Garchomp in OU despite the complaints? Fine, then we go and ban Sand Veil or SS+SV for that exact reason. But we shouldn't even try to cover our asses saying "it's for consistency" or "it breaks the eon-old Clause!!!!", because it's clear as shit only Garchomp matters, so we could at least admit it.

 

[ginganinja]

Forgive me if this seems laughably misinformed, but wouldn't it be possible to use Scarf Haxorus as a check to sub-spamming Garchomps relying on Sand Veil hax?

Mold Breaker suppresses Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and other attack-hindering abilities, and Haxorus is the only dragon besides Garchomp that learns Double Chop, a sub-destroying attack second only to Icicle Spear in effectiveness against Garchomp. Not to mention since the subs mean Garchomp isn't scarfed, Scarf Haxorus outspeeds it handily and can power through its defenses.

It's not even running a bad pokemon to counter a specific strategy, since Scarf Haxorus is a pretty powerful revenge killer. I'm just noting that a fairly overlooked OU dragon seems like it could be useful for the problem people have with Garchomp. Even if it doesn't kill it, that Double Chop is going to put a hell of a dent in Garchomp's subbing and sweeping prospects.

While its true that Scarf Haxorus can hurt it with Double Chop the main problem is that Garchomp will survive with no investment, still have 30-40% left and just killed your Scarfer/revenge killer. It can now safely switch back out and switch back in later on your SDef Jirachi or something, set up a Sub and start all over again. Granted, its going to find it harder to sweep but it still got a free kill which is better than nothing

 

[alexwolf]

Evasion Clause in RBY: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???.
Evasion Clause in GSC: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???. BrightPowder is allowed because ?????.
Evasion Clause in ADV: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???. BrightPowder, Lax Incense, Sand Veil are allowed because ?????.
Evasion Clause in DPPt: Double Team and Minimize are banned because ???. BrightPowder, Lax Incense, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak are allowed because ?????.


Evasion Clause only ever specifically mentioned Double Team (and lol Minimize) because it has been grandfathered from RBY since GSC. There has been nothing, nothing in ten or so years of Pokémon play that made us ban BrightPowder, which exists since GSC, for it violating Evasion Clause, because Evasion Clause was specifically made for those two Evasion-boosting moves.

i agree that in the beginning it was just the grandfathering of some old rules.but from gen 3 i think were the competitive metagame had started to become interesting and more people became attracted to it it was made clear why these moves weren't allowed.
'cause even if they don't give you statistically big enough chances to have a constant winning streak they allow completely crazy scenarios to happen like someone very skilled losing by someone very unskilled just because the latter decided to use double team and the skilled player got unlucky.i don't think that this is supposed to happen in a competitive communitywhen a very good player plays against a very bad player 99,9% the good player must win.but this wouldn't be the case if these moves were allowed...
although in a smaller degree,sand veil and snow cloak do the same...they give the ability to players to win when they shoudn't...and the worst thing is that people can even abuse further this luck element to their own advantage by using substitute!so if i chose to make a batton bass team that has a sand veil sandslash (i chose sandslash instead of garchomp 'cause maybe i am a new player or because i don't like to use what everyone is using)as it's sweeper and i manage to get 1 or 2 misses when i batton pass the boosts to him that could very possibly mean the end for the opponent even though he might have played better...
or say i use the same sand veil sandslash as a spinner and i run a full stall team.you have a spinner in your team and you don't see any ghost in my team so you let me get some layers of spikes or t-spikes.later you come in and try to spin while a switch in to sandslash and you miss...then you try again to spin or to kill me and you miss again allowing me to either kill you or toxic you...eventually you lose the match 'cause luck wasn't on your side even though you were much more skilled...

even though one could argue that there are many times when games played even by equally skilled players very often are decided by hax such as an untiimely crit or a freeze that happens so rare that it can be added to the almost never happening case...the chances for a crit to happen are 6,25 percent.the chances for crit that matters greatly to happen are like 1 or 2 percent 'cause most of the hits that happen in a battle are resisted due to switching(see how close is the number to the 99% i mentioned above).
the chance for a freeze is 10%.when you consider the fact that almost any poke that uses ice attacks with a freeze chance doesn't get stab(meaning that they are coverage moves)you will see that most of the times the players don't use the ice moves but their stab moves which have greater damage output.also a lot of pokes don't use ice beam and instead use hp ice...and anyway let's see how many pokes actually use ice moves with a chance to freeze.
in ou there are:politoed,jelicient(rarely),starmie,vaporeon,swampert and deoxys-s,tentacruel(very rare)!
so there are only 7 pokes which use these moves at all(some of them use it often some of them use it rarely).so the chances that a vital member of your team will get frozen by such a move are again very very low....
so we are finished with the most major instances of hax..there are other luck factors,less detrimental to the winning of the game like parahax or burnhax...but these effects are not so game breaking when they happen and they can be played around in most of the cases so again in 95% or more of the matches they don't appear anyway...

but anyway all of these effects cannot be avoided because they happen uncontrollably and they also have other effetcs such as damage.so we cannot ban the moves that cause these forms oh hax 'cause they also do damage and there is nothing wrong with this.for a move to be banned every aspect of it must be unwanted.but in all these moves there is one wanted thing(damage) and one unwanted(hax) so we keep them this way.in the other way double team has only 1 effect(hax) which makes the possibility that the battle will get out of your control looking not so rare.and the same happens with sand veil(excpet that there must be sandstorm up).

if i am right and the evasion raising moves and items were banned due to the reasons that i am telling(meaning uncompetitiveness and not grandfathering which i think is the case)then according to the exact same logic a complex ban should be implemented as a further extention of the evasion clasue to include sand veil and snow cloak!but if these moves and these items were banned just because they were already banned from the past(and for none else reason)then we should clearly unban them and test them on every pokemon...

sry i talked too much again...

 

[Blackdragonking]

While its true that Scarf Haxorus can hurt it with Double Chop the main problem is that Garchomp will survive with no investment, still have 30-40% left and just killed your Scarfer/revenge killer. It can now safely switch back out and switch back in later on your SDef Jirachi or something, set up a Sub and start all over again. Granted, its going to find it harder to sweep but it still got a free kill which is better than nothing

I suppose so, but I still think Haxorus might be handy for this situation, given that if Chomp's not behind a sub, it's slower than Scarf Haxorus because it forwent its scarf set, and suddenly the dragon that gets trolled by Garchomp normally is in a position to beat the crap out of it with no hax. I mainly brought up Double Chop because I wasn't sure if Garchomp's defenses, strong as they may be, could shrug off the second chop coming off of Haxorus's massive attack stat, and being able to damage Garchomp whether it has a sub up or not while getting rid of the sub seems more handy than taking a gamble on removing the sub followed by a gamble on taking down the chomp. I figured the problem people were having was that Garchomp was sweeping by virtue of spamming subs until it earned a few free turns and going to town on its supposed counters.

This makes it even more of a Garchomp and Garchomp only issue, given that most Mold Breakers beat the crap out of every other alleged "abuser" of Sand Veil or Snow cloak. If Cacturne was ever really a problem in lower tiers, something like Pinsir would rise with its ability to ignore accuracy drops and one-shot Cacturne with X-Scissor and such. The only thing with Sand Veil or Snow Cloak that's actually a problem is Garchomp. He's a problematic sorta guy, isn't he?

 

[Baldafor]

Can we unban Drizzle + Swift Swim if we ban Garchomp instead? It was really the whole problem all along!

But seriously, Garchomp should have started out uber this gen anyway, with all the drama associated with that mess in early dppt. Did we really think seriously that half of these ridiculously powerful pokemon (Skymin, Darkrai etc.) had a chance at OU?

 

[iDunno]

Garchomp isn't anywhere close to broken and if it was banned initially, he would still be banned now, therefore it was good to unban it initially.

 

[Blackdragonking]

Yeah have fun using Haxorous...

and then you miss with Double Chop because it's 90%.....

Considering that otherwise-perfect accuracy attacks have 80% accuracy in Sand Veil, I fail to see the problem. Outside of Sand Veil, the move's still perfectly reliable; given how many people say that the much lower accuracy and PP are worth the greater power of moves like Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, taking a 10% accuracy penalty for a better version of Dragon Claw seems fair to me.

 

[Nubbins]

It's 90% accuracy BEFORE you apply the Sand Veil hax. So when Scarf Haxorus uses Double Chop on Sub Garchomp, the accuracy is 72%. That's almost as bad as Blizzard AND the accuracy is calculated per hit, meaning that you only have a 51.84% chance of breaking the sub and dealing good damage to chomp. Last time I saw those numbers was on a Machamp.

And there's the question of why would you even use Haxorus in the first place. If you're going to use double chop, at least use Garchomp.

 

[Blackdragonking]

It's 90% accuracy BEFORE you apply the Sand Veil hax. So when Scarf Haxorus uses Double Chop on Sub Garchomp, the accuracy is 72%. That's almost as bad as Blizzard AND the accuracy is calculated per hit, meaning that you only have a 51.84% chance of breaking the sub and dealing good damage to chomp. Last time I saw those numbers was on a Machamp.

And there's the question of why would you even use Haxorus in the first place. If you're going to use double chop, at least use Garchomp.

Please go read the reason I brought up Haxorus in the first place. MOLD BREAKER NEGATES SAND VEIL. -_-

Also, in this particular theoretical matchup, Haxorus is considerably more powerful than Garchomp, who falls into the exact problem you just mentioned and deals less damage with each hit while still getting taken down by the other Garchomp's attacks.

Secondly, some of us happen to like Haxorus instead of jumping on the nearest former Uber dragon. I wasn't aware that was a problem, given that he's still an extremely solid, powerful pokemon in his own right.

 

[ginganinja]

the point is that all your 147 base attack counts for shit when you are facing Sub Chomp. Basically i get a sub, you go to Haxorus and I kill you. Garchomp wins even though it is apparently "less powerful". If your opponent does not use Substitute its either Scarfed (in which case you lose) or its a rare CB set and thats pretty much it. Even if I missed a set somewhere the point is that Scarf Haxorus loses to the 2 most popular Garchomp sets out there which makes it a...deadweight if I am trying to check Garchomp. Bottom line is that 'yay' you weaken Garchomp but its still alive and your dead, not a trade-off I'd like to make

 

[Blackdragonking]

the point is that all your 147 base attack counts for shit when you are facing Sub Chomp. Basically i get a sub, you go to Haxorus and I kill you. Garchomp wins even though it is apparently "less powerful". If your opponent does not use Substitute its either Scarfed (in which case you lose) or its a rare CB set and thats pretty much it. Even if I missed a set somewhere the point is that Scarf Haxorus loses to the 2 most popular Garchomp sets out there which makes it a...deadweight if I am trying to check Garchomp. Bottom line is that 'yay' you weaken Garchomp but its still alive and your dead, not a trade-off I'd like to make

I'd personally rather be able to weaken a subchomp with Haxorus than lose outright with another Garchomp trying to do the same thing. At least Haxorus can revenge Garchomp with Outrage if the sub's not up when he comes out without worrying about missing.

 

[Razza]

Garchomp

The garchomp sand veil ban is a very split issue. On the one hand I have lost a few games due to sandveil hax, in fact I lost one yesterday whilst playing against the no 1 on the beta server, but later on in that match I still could have won but missed a focus blast that cost me the game. On the other hand hax is part of pokemon and I can accept that moves miss at key moments in games but on the other hand It does annoy me when my 100% accuracy move misses due to sand veil as 100% should mean 100%. I doubt that garchomp is really anywhere near broken enough to be banned with sandstream and it appears most people just dislike him due to losing a game or two to sandveil hax. In the end though the only opinions that matter a great deal are those with voting rights and it would be a fair assumption to have a vote at the end of this round on the issue to see wether it really is a ban worthy suggestion or not.

 

[Darusare]

Sandstorm + sandveil wont work
since t tar and hippodown are on the top of the usage stats
i guess it could be blamed on the player for running t tar or hippodown
but that player will still scream hax when a attack misses