my cradily eats tornadus for breakfast. I don't think he is anywhere near broken. sme goes for thundurus.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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mines usually in sandstorm and maybe the ones im facing have weird sets but its usually a 3hko and i take them out with ancient power.
if i switch in i have to be carefull but they usually either spam hurricane or they switch into me and i usually have a sub up but that point.
I'm going to give it a go at trying to explain weather and its affect on the metagame. A ton of you are clearly misguided about weather's affect in this game, so I'll try to give you a run down of what good players see and their common complaints are.
First, I'll explain a team in which no weather starter is used. I've seen good players pull it off before (like Eo Ut Mortus, etc), but its extremely tough to do well. The reason for that is that no weather teams are at an inherent disadvantage against weather teams and their abusers.
The advantage of a weather team is that a Pokemon gets some type of boost that makes inherently more powerful. It requires no set-up aside from the weather starter doing its job (which isn't hard when you just have to switch in). Non-weather teams don't have a "quick fix" and thus have to be capable of operating under all weather conditions and not seriously mind the boosts numerous opposing Pokemon are essentially given for free. On top of these weather abusers (which are unusually strong because of given weather), non-weather teams must also account for everything else seen on the ladder. Preparing for a weather team which all have a similar select few pokemon without using weather yourself can be a huge task on its own. Then add about 80 other viable threats, and you've got a huge mountain to climb.
Rain is considered the 'offense weather' and its pretty obvious why. Doubled Water STAB attacks are really really powerful. Specs Politoed almost OHKOes common 252 HP Bronzong with Hydro Pump which is pretty crazy. Other stuff like Thundurus and Tornadus are able to use 180 Base Power moves coming off Special Attack comparable to Arceus. Obviously they require weather to have 100% accuracy, but Politoed is suprisingly durable depending on the task you want it to accomplish. Also, the decrease in Fire's effectiveness is actually a bigger problem for a lot of people than most think. Trying to kill Ferrothorn is honestly a pain in the ass and the reason to run Fire/Fighting moves. When a lot of Pokemon rely on HP Fire (like Celebi, Rotom-w, Lati@s to name a few) with a base power of 140 in rain against Ferrothorn, it's going to be a long day. A 4x super effective move is not even close to being as powerful as Thundurus' STAB Thunder being neutrally effective.
Sun is honestly a bad weather type; don't even try to argue for it. I used Sun last test, and I tried early in the test this round but once Blaziken got banned it really fell apart. Ninetales is bad defensively and offensively so it's naturally the hardest weather to keep up. Most of the Sun abusers don't really take advantage of the Fire boost as its really grass types that get the Speed boost. Because of this, Fire types are relatively easily outsped and KOed before they can take advantage of the boost. Volcarona is the only real threat and it is Stealth Rock weak which almost requires a Spinner and a team slot which are hard to come by these days. Grass types are generally pretty bad offensively, so as long as you have something that can attack it without getting KOed by its probable lack of good stabs/boosts, you're good to go. Sun is admittedly very good against non-weather teams but Rain and Sand generally have the upper hand in terms of keeping it up and thus the favorable matchup for sweepers.
Sand is by far the most common, but it's not because its the best. Rather the reason is that it is the easiest answer to general weather concerns. Tyranitar is easy to mold with all its moves so it fits a lot of teams unlike the basically one dimensional Politoed and Ninetales. Plus it's generally the least 'all out offensive weather' meaning it doesn't completely rely on Sandstorm for its effectiveness. Instead, Tyranitar is generally saved to keep other weather abusers from running wild. Thundurus with 70% accuracy and Sandstorm damage every turn is not as threatening without the accuracy boost. The same can be said for pretty much every other weather threat. I don't want to cover all of them because that is a waste of my time.
Sandstorm currently takes a "countering role" during this generation which is where a lot of people in this thread and some suspect voters get confused. Running Tyranitar is the easiest way to check Rain/Sun. However, Sandstorm can easily become an offensive presence. Excadrill, Landorus, Garchomp, Reuniclus, etc, all become significantly harder to kill in Sandstorm because of their respective perks. Excadrill is faster than everything. Landorus gets a power boost (which isn't worth it when other weathers run rampant right now) but the free boost just from Sandstorm being there is pretty fearsome. Garchomp gets the 20% evasion raise which may not affect a given match, but given time it definitely has an impact. Reuniclus is tough to kill anyway, but when everything else is getting battered by the storm, it doesn't and continues to not give a fuck.
So that's a basic run down of weather currently. I personally want to get rid of weather, but I'm also at terms with it staying. It's definitely beatable and it comes down to whether people want weather aided sweepers running the game in gen 5. Please don't make some absurd statements on how I'm completely wrong or bring some irrelevant calculations to try and disprove some small point I made. It doesn't make you look smart and it just derails the thread with useless crap (until a mod like Haunter comes and gets everyone back on track).
As for Deo-e, I don't think it should be banned. It's really only a threat with a Screen-Pass team since Ferrothorn is extremely reliable at spiking.
Latios is alright. I don't care if it stays or goes since my team beats it easily. It does do a lot of damage though which makes switching a lot more difficult.
First, I'll explain a team in which no weather starter is used. I've seen good players pull it off before (like Eo Ut Mortus, etc), but its extremely tough to do well. The reason for that is that no weather teams are at an inherent disadvantage against weather teams and their abusers.
The advantage of a weather team is that a Pokemon gets some type of boost that makes inherently more powerful. It requires no set-up aside from the weather starter doing its job (which isn't hard when you just have to switch in). Non-weather teams don't have a "quick fix" and thus have to be capable of operating under all weather conditions and not seriously mind the boosts numerous opposing Pokemon are essentially given for free. On top of these weather abusers (which are unusually strong because of given weather), non-weather teams must also account for everything else seen on the ladder. Preparing for a weather team which all have a similar select few pokemon without using weather yourself can be a huge task on its own. Then add about 80 other viable threats, and you've got a huge mountain to climb.
Rain is considered the 'offense weather' and its pretty obvious why. Doubled Water STAB attacks are really really powerful. Specs Politoed almost OHKOes common 252 HP Bronzong with Hydro Pump which is pretty crazy. Other stuff like Thundurus and Tornadus are able to use 180 Base Power moves coming off Special Attack comparable to Arceus. Obviously they require weather to have 100% accuracy, but Politoed is suprisingly durable depending on the task you want it to accomplish. Also, the decrease in Fire's effectiveness is actually a bigger problem for a lot of people than most think. Trying to kill Ferrothorn is honestly a pain in the ass and the reason to run Fire/Fighting moves. When a lot of Pokemon rely on HP Fire (like Celebi, Rotom-w, Lati@s to name a few) with a base power of 140 in rain against Ferrothorn, it's going to be a long day. A 4x super effective move is not even close to being as powerful as Thundurus' STAB Thunder being neutrally effective.
Sun is honestly a bad weather type; don't even try to argue for it. I used Sun last test, and I tried early in the test this round but once Blaziken got banned it really fell apart. Ninetales is bad defensively and offensively so it's naturally the hardest weather to keep up. Most of the Sun abusers don't really take advantage of the Fire boost as its really grass types that get the Speed boost. Because of this, Fire types are relatively easily outsped and KOed before they can take advantage of the boost. Volcarona is the only real threat and it is Stealth Rock weak which almost requires a Spinner and a team slot which are hard to come by these days. Grass types are generally pretty bad offensively, so as long as you have something that can attack it without getting KOed by its probable lack of good stabs/boosts, you're good to go. Sun is admittedly very good against non-weather teams but Rain and Sand generally have the upper hand in terms of keeping it up and thus the favorable matchup for sweepers.
Sand is by far the most common, but it's not because its the best. Rather the reason is that it is the easiest answer to general weather concerns. Tyranitar is easy to mold with all its moves so it fits a lot of teams unlike the basically one dimensional Politoed and Ninetales. Plus it's generally the least 'all out offensive weather' meaning it doesn't completely rely on Sandstorm for its effectiveness. Instead, Tyranitar is generally saved to keep other weather abusers from running wild. Thundurus with 70% accuracy and Sandstorm damage every turn is not as threatening without the accuracy boost. The same can be said for pretty much every other weather threat. I don't want to cover all of them because that is a waste of my time.
Sandstorm currently takes a "countering role" during this generation which is where a lot of people in this thread and some suspect voters get confused. Running Tyranitar is the easiest way to check Rain/Sun. However, Sandstorm can easily become an offensive presence. Excadrill, Landorus, Garchomp, Reuniclus, etc, all become significantly harder to kill in Sandstorm because of their respective perks. Excadrill is faster than everything. Landorus gets a power boost (which isn't worth it when other weathers run rampant right now) but the free boost just from Sandstorm being there is pretty fearsome. Garchomp gets the 20% evasion raise which may not affect a given match, but given time it definitely has an impact. Reuniclus is tough to kill anyway, but when everything else is getting battered by the storm, it doesn't and continues to not give a fuck.
So that's a basic run down of weather currently. I personally want to get rid of weather, but I'm also at terms with it staying. It's definitely beatable and it comes down to whether people want weather aided sweepers running the game in gen 5. Please don't make some absurd statements on how I'm completely wrong or bring some irrelevant calculations to try and disprove some small point I made. It doesn't make you look smart and it just derails the thread with useless crap (until a mod like Haunter comes and gets everyone back on track).
As for Deo-e, I don't think it should be banned. It's really only a threat with a Screen-Pass team since Ferrothorn is extremely reliable at spiking.
Latios is alright. I don't care if it stays or goes since my team beats it easily. It does do a lot of damage though which makes switching a lot more difficult.
What you just said is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.
Thorhammer said that since it wasn't voted on, it wasn't really a rule.
And I said that, based on the past, not everything needs a vote. I said that we've seen that Philip (or reach, now) may make rules.
Regardless of the circumstances in which they do it, they can forbid things, such as changing game mechanics. Such as Pokemon + ability bans.
@undisputed: ya p much
dude. i freaking love you. no homo.
and on a side note, why isn't Soul Dew on the banned items list yet, anyway?
Agree with the first part.
And Soul Dew is impossible to get right now, so there is no point.
when you say that :I have avoided this thread like the devil. Like the plague. Even when I've really wanted to say why I think people are retarded, I have not (read: Giratina/Ferrothorn/Sand Veil).
But this Blaziken nonsense takes the cake, IMO. I'm going to tell now why Blaziken will not be split into Blaze Blaziken and Speed Boost Blaziken.
when you thought to refer to other people as retards('cause obviously their nominations seemed retarted to you)and when you talk about it's nomination as blaziken nonsense it's obvious that you humiliated his point...so stop playing the virgin...
anyway it wasn't anyhting personal it's just the fact that disrespect and aggresiveness are not the things that make a right discussion thread...that's all honestly!
now on tornadus:
despite having some hard counters,tornadus is for me the most annoying rain abuser to face.
hurricane has a 30% chance to confuse the opponent,and i think that one of tornadus hard counters,jirachi,gets fucked by it 'cause of serene grace which makes the move a 60% confusion move.
a big seling point of tornadus is also the use of tailwind,which was a really underrated move until we found its potential,which can turn game around... his best set,in my opinion, is u-turn,fb,hurricane and tailwind with sharp beak as a hold item which easily bluffs a choice item and nets you many surprise kills.you can use expert belt instead but i need all the power i can get against ferrothorn and usually i spam hurricanes in ferrothorns face instead of trying to hit him with focus miss.
i find him more difficult to counter than thundurus 'cause the number one used steel(ferrothorn) doesn't resist flying and i find a lot of teams that don't have a sturdy resistor for flying types(ok rotom-w is everywhere but except from him)...
Ok, if that's all it takes for someone to be humiliated, then they get embarrassed way too easily, and probably shouldn't be in this thread to begin with. I'm not saying that in a mean way. But name-calling is on every other page of this thread, and if it embarrasses someone then they shouldn't read it.
I agree that in a perfect Smogon, there wouldn't be rudeness and classlessness. Ideally, all discussion would be civil. But let's face it, it's not. We're only human. I mean, look at this thread. If you're trying to hunt down the asses around here, then you've got a lot more work to do than correcting my errors.
Serene Grace only affects moves that Jirachi uses. It's not like No Guard, which affects the whole field. So it's only 30% confusion against Jirachi.
Tailwind is good on him, but Rain Dance is better IMO, unless you're using him on a Drizzle team (which he's best on anyway). As for that set, Sharp Beak is surely not the best item you could be using. I mean, Expert Belt wouldn't be that great because Flying gets limited SE coverage. But still, Sharp Beak just seems... off, somehow.
Yeah, Hurricane > Thunder most of the time. That said, Tornadus doesn't get Nasty Plot, which is a huge selling point for Thundurus.
ok!
that's a shame!
yeah i am not using expert belt 'cause flying has limited se coverage...so what item do you propose other than sharp beak except choice items?
The answer boosts move's BP by 30% while causing 10% recoil damage to its holder after each attack.
Well, Life Orb would be best, but then you lose health, which isn't great on a Pokemon who is already SR weak. There's always Leftovers, but then you get no power gain, and Tornadus isn't bulky to begin with.
Plus, neither of those can bluff a Choice item.
I'd say LO is best for your set, while Specs is best on rain teams. Obviously Lefties for Support Taunt/Tailwind sets. But I've used Tornadus very little, and I haven't checked his analysis, so I can't be trusted as the best person for him.
@rickatck: What BerserkerLord said.
i know this man...but it's only a 10% power difference in power in my main attack.fb is not used a lot anyway and it doesnt need the boost to kill ttar so i dont care.and u-turn doesnt need any boost 'cause its main purpose is scouting and getting my politoed in safely against opposing weathers so...i don't think that there is a better option than sharp beak...
Since you're using it on a rain team, why not just go Specs and mindlessly abuse Hurricane, which 2HKOes most things not named T-Tar?
With the numbers voting to ban Brightpowder and Lax Incense, it's unlikely that any reconsideration will change the verdict anytime soon.
As for King's Rock, Quick Claw, and their counterparts, they are not Evasion; the factor to which they add luck can be circumvented far more easily. Against any faster Pokemon, King's Rock is meaningless; against any Pokemon that doesn't mind going second or any Pokemon using moves of any different priority, Quick Claw is meaningless.
I don't see any voting on the matter. For that matter, I don't see any overruling, either. Phillip acted like that was policy, but he never bothered to actually make it policy. And there's a good reason for that. Phillip had stated that he would only use his power to overrule votes when he felt it was justified and absolutely necessary. No justification had been prevented, and it can't possibly be seen as necessary when it hasn't been seen how the PR voters would have decided on the issue in the first place. Phillip has never had the power to forcibly change policy on a whim. For that matter, right now, he doesn't have the power to forcibly change policy at all. He's not in charge anymore, and therefore even if he had made such a decision, it wouldn't necessarily stand.
No one has granted Aldaron the power to have absolute control over the future of complex bans. Such a thing would be insane. What was accepted was the ban of Drizzle + Swift Swim, nothing more.
Aldaron was indeed known to have the stance that Swift Swim and Chlorophyll were special. He was not known to have the stance that no other abilities were also special. Furthermore, I do not believe he was known to have any stance on complex bans other than Ability + Ability bans, although I may be wrong about that. However, because of the above point, this whole argument is moot anyway; his standpoint does not matter because no one ever voted to accept Aldaron's personal beliefs and opinions as official Smogon policy.
My point being that a vote isn't necessary on everything. Policy can be, you know, decided, rather than voted on. Regardless of circumstances in other instances, you have failed to come up with a reason that a vote has to decide every little facet of Smogon policy.
Also, the decision would stand because neither reach nor PR have changed it.
We're experiencing the atom bomb effect here. We're using someone else's work and attempting to blow something up (in this case, the metagame rather than Japan).
The definition of being special is being not like other things. Being unique. Not "being different but having other things like you".
Furthermore, you are utterly twisting his words. When he says "these are special", it should be obvious what he means. It's like when someone says " I don't want to join the Army", so you sign them up for the Navy. Or "Don't shoot me", so you stab them instead.
By voting on and accepting Aldaron's Proposal, the ban which Aldaron laid out as he saw fit, they pretty much did make what he wanted official policy.
Regardless, we've been over this whole "no vote" issue before.
ttfn
ttyl
It is an integral part of Smogon's policy that without a vote or extraordinary circumstances necessitating the overriding of a vote, policy cannot be changed. There's nothing more to say regarding the first two points. If you are unable or unwilling to accept this basic aspect of how things are and must be done here, there is no sense in continuing to argue these matters.
For the third point, you are just as wrong, but for different reasons. "Special" does not mean "unique"; there can be other things that are like a thing that is special, just not most things. Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, and Sand Rush are different from most other abilities, but they are not different from all other abilities. There is no evidence against the conclusion that some or all other weather-abusing abilities are just as special, and in fact it is the most logical conclusion that can be drawn from Aldaron's statements.
As for the actual vote, people voted on Aldaron's proposal, not Aldaron's beliefs. Aldaron's proposal was to ban Swift Swim + Drizzle, nothing more - or at least, not necessarily anything more. There is the potential that people might have inferred additional meaning to the vote, but because it is uncertain who might have voted on that basis and who might not, the only thing that is known is that people voted on is Swift Swim + Drizzle. And therefore that is the only matter for which policy is decided. Your baseless claims that policy can be changed on a whim do not affect this matter.
oh for the love of...
Geez, have you even been reading my posts? I'm not arguing that votes aren't important, although I would frankly prefer to go back to the Smogon Council. But that's not the point. It's votes that decide shit around here.
But I am telling you that you are wrong when you say that literally nothing can be done without a vote. That has been proven false in the past by the contrary actually occurring.
Oh my gosh I didn't actually use a dictionary. Gasp, I... simplified!
I'd just like to say that this came up about Speed Boost, and you're trying to turn it into a Sand Veil argument. This is made evident by your "other weather-abusing abilities" bit.
Anyway, there is also no evidence against the conclusion that other weather-abusing are not just as special. Given that they do different things (not doubled speed), one could say that they are in fact different. One more thing, please explain to me the logic you're using to draw your "most logical" conclusion. Because you spoke of logic but didn't actually show any.
In the post which was his proposal, he included basically his whole opinion on the matter. He included all his public statements about complex bans thus far. That post was his proposal. Now check Blind Voting. Smogon voted on "Aldaron's Proposal", not SwSw + Drizzle. They voted on all that was in his proposal, including his views.
One last thing, please try to avoid making shit up. You look at every post I've made, and I never so much as implied that policy can be changed on a whim. I'm sorry to say that putting words in my mouth will not help your case.
Geez, have you even been reading my posts? I'm not arguing that votes aren't important, although I would frankly prefer to go back to the Smogon Council. But that's not the point. It's votes that decide shit around here.
But I am telling you that you are wrong when you say that literally nothing can be done without a vote. That has been proven false in the past by the contrary actually occurring.
Oh my gosh I didn't actually use a dictionary. Gasp, I... simplified!
I'd just like to say that this came up about Speed Boost, and you're trying to turn it into a Sand Veil argument. This is made evident by your "other weather-abusing abilities" bit.
Anyway, there is also no evidence against the conclusion that other weather-abusing are not just as special. Given that they do different things (not doubled speed), one could say that they are in fact different. One more thing, please explain to me the logic you're using to draw your "most logical" conclusion. Because you spoke of logic but didn't actually show any.
In the post which was his proposal, he included basically his whole opinion on the matter. He included all his public statements about complex bans thus far. That post was his proposal. Now check Blind Voting. Smogon voted on "Aldaron's Proposal", not SwSw + Drizzle. They voted on all that was in his proposal, including his views.
One last thing, please try to avoid making shit up. You look at every post I've made, and I never so much as implied that policy can be changed on a whim. I'm sorry to say that putting words in my mouth will not help your case.
becuase tyranitar is almost in every team and i prefer to be able to switch moves and get that useful u-turn in the face of the ttars that think that i am choiced while switching back my weather at the same time and dealing around 25% at most t-tars.also i don't want to be locked so i can use tailwind as a last measure!
Well, Tornadus just has a really hard time bluffing a Choice item. I honestly think Life Orb would be your best bet if you want to switch moves.
But Someone who switch Ttar to tornadus AND get Blasted is dumb seriously
Anyway
Why tornadus is not used more ?
General(stupid)consensus
"ITS PURELY OUTCLASSED BY EVERYTHING BULLSHIT CRAP !!!!!" Stupid Person 1
"IT SUCKS" Retarded Person 2
"FLYING TYPE SUCKS OFFENSIVELY" Extremely Stupid Noob Person 3
Yeah it sucks offensively since it dont have immunity resistor and its main resistor is easily handled by some slapped coverage move
Gahh this is not gen 4 people !!!!
Anyway
Why tornadus is not used more ?
General(stupid)consensus
"ITS PURELY OUTCLASSED BY EVERYTHING BULLSHIT CRAP !!!!!" Stupid Person 1
"IT SUCKS" Retarded Person 2
"FLYING TYPE SUCKS OFFENSIVELY" Extremely Stupid Noob Person 3
Yeah it sucks offensively since it dont have immunity resistor and its main resistor is easily handled by some slapped coverage move
Gahh this is not gen 4 people !!!!
yes but as i told you before the main move is hurricane which anyway gets boosted by 20% with sharp beak...why lose 10% of my life in each attack and lose my chance of bluffing a a choice item just to make hurricane 10% stronger?
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