np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

Status
Not open for further replies.
alphatron said:
^Except aside from Tyranitar, they aren't perfect counters at all.

50% - 58.8% is the amount 252/252 bold Blissey takes from psycho shock.

69.8% - 82.7% is the amount 252/252 Calm Jirachi takes from Sunboosted Hidden Power Fire. (if sunlight is up at all).

I'm not saying that the latios user is perfect and knows exactly what you're going to do at all times, but calling them perfect latios counters would be like calling heatran and magnezone the perfect counters to Choice Band Scizor.
Click to expand...

Why the hell would you use psychoshock with specs though (the only way to get the damage roll from the calcs i did)? that'd leave you with DM/Trick/Psychoshock/Filler. If that filler is Hp Fire, TTar laughs at you. If it's surf, everything (including SpDef TTar) laughs at you. Same thing if it's ice beam/ thunderbolt.

(One thing; I got 62.4% - 73.8% from 252 SAtk Specs Latios HP Fire in the sun on 252/224 calm jirachi. Doesn't change anything, just wanted to point that out)
Also, congratulations, SDef Jirachi is sort of countered on the switch 6.2658% of the time. In case you're wondering where I got that number from, it's the percent usage of Ninetails. Otherwise it does 42.1% - 49.5%. Even assuming that you perfectly predicted the Jirachi switch in and got the HP fire off (out of the sun), he can still just T-wave you, then proceed to hax you to death.

Although, I guess your point was that he CAN be defeated, and I guess 6.2658% of the time (assuming all sun teams run latios, which they don't) does count. Still doesn't mean he's anywhere near broken though.

I think the problem we have with your argument is that you're running a 4Hp/252 SAtk/252 Spe Latios @ Choice Specs with Psychoshock/ Trick/ DM/ Surf/ HP Fire and the ability to switch moves. That just doesn't work dude.

I don't think there are any suspects at this point. Especially not Latios. I think everyone would just be happier if there were no more bans at this point.
 
...Why would I, or anyone else for that matter, be running a choice specs Latios on a drought team with Surf? And when did I say he could switch attacks?!

I didn't say that Latios could switch moves with a choice specs, I'm simply saying that it can handle Blissey and Jirachi. As you said, even if you're running Surf, Tyranitar laughs at you, so what else is surf supposed to be hitting? Heatran? He's loses over half of his health from one specs draco meteor anyway and has no reliable recovery.

Even assuming that you perfectly predicted the Jirachi switch in and got the HP fire off (out of the sun), he can still just T-wave you, then proceed to hax you to death.

Although, I guess your point was that he CAN be defeated, and I guess 6.2658% of the time (assuming all sun teams run latios, which they don't) does count. Still doesn't mean he's anywhere near broken though.
Click to expand...

If you predict the switch, you'll just outspeed him and hp fire again for the KO. Unless Jirachi is scarfed with the ability to switch attacks as well. And yeah, that was my point. He isn't a perfect counter, because latios can handle him. To me a perfect counter is something like Tyranitar, who will reliably beat Latios in every scenario.

But I'll just give up since nobody plays sun at all whatsoever and latios users will simply mash the button that says, "draco meteor".

Latios isn't uber, but he is not countered as easily as this topic makes him to be. Ferrothorn counters him as much as he does SpecsHydriegon.
 
All Latios is good for is coming in, spamming Draco Meteor, then becoming set-up fodder like MoP already said. It's a good pokemon, yeah, but it's by no means strong enough to be considered broken. Excadrill loves -2 Specs Draco Meteors, they only deal 29.9% - 35.2%.

Scrafty soaks them up all day long too: 24.7% - 29.5%

And don't even get me started on Volcarona.
 
All this Choice Specs talk makes me think of the occasional Wise Glasses Hydreigon and Latios I sometimes see used by sneakier players on Wifi. It's pretty good at bluffing a Choice Specs for those who haven't memorized all the damage calculations.

:)
 
alphatron said:
...Why would I, or anyone else for that matter, be running a choice specs Latios on a drought team with Surf? And when did I say he could switch attacks?!
Click to expand...

You keep saying "well if jirachi comes in ill Hp fire him and if TTar comes in Ill just surf him and if chansey/blissey come in Ill just trick and if I don't feel like tricking I'll just psychoshock and I'll just DM everything else."

It doesn't make much sense. Also, the surf thing was me assuming that he's out of the sun like almost all the time, though i guess it's kind of a moot point since you already agreed that TTar countered Latios.

Even then, DM/Trick/Psychoshock/Hp Fire is a horrible set since you have no coverage.

alphatron said:
I didn't say that Latios could switch moves with a choice specs, I'm simply saying that it can handle Blissey and Jirachi. As you said, even if you're running Surf, Tyranitar laughs at you, so what else is surf supposed to be hitting? Heatran? He's loses over half of his health from one specs draco meteor anyway and has no reliable recovery.
Click to expand...

Yea, the whole surf thing was kind of stupid. I already admitted that, I know. Also, this has already been said but you can't do shit to chansey anyway, so it doesn't matter. Since we are playing the prediction game by hitting trick anyway, can't the chansey user just switch back into another trick you'll inevitably do to lose the eviolite?

Prediction is kind of a dumb argument, since it can go both ways. Just saying.

alphatron said:
If you predict the switch, you'll just outspeed him and hp fire again for the KO. Unless Jirachi is scarfed with the ability to switch attacks as well. And yeah, that was my point. He isn't a perfect counter, because latios can handle him. To me a perfect counter is something like Tyranitar, who will reliably beat Latios in every scenario.
Click to expand...

I said (out of the sun) in my post. Out of the sun, HP Fire is a 3HKO, so none of that post made sense. I do admit though I edited that part in after I posted it, since that was the point I was originally trying to get across. You might've just missed it.

alphatron said:
But I'll just give up since nobody plays sun at all whatsoever and latios users will simply mash the button that says, "draco meteor".
Click to expand...

Can't argue with you there.

alphatron said:
Latios isn't uber, but he is not countered as easily as this topic makes him to be. Ferrothorn counters him as much as he does SpecsHydriegon.
Click to expand...

Yes, in the hands of a good player, Latios is good; but isn't that true for a lot of top-tier pokemon? I don't mean to be rude, but if you're not trying to suggest banning him there isn't a point in bringing absolutely ANY of this up.
 
Playing devil's advocate is fun, as is viewing both sides of an arguement (I did the same thing for blaziken too). Funny enough, in the team in my sig, I use a jirachi as a means to beat Latios. >_>

For the record, I don't think I mentioned using trick on specs latios at all in any of my posts where I argue for his use. Sure, I may have mentioned him rampaging on rain teams, but personally, I don't see trick as something to argue for.
 
alphatron said:
Playing devil's advocate is fun, as is viewing both sides of an arguement (I did the same thing for blaziken too). Funny enough, in the team in my sig, I use a jirachi as a means to beat Latios. >_>

For the record, I don't think I mentioned using trick on specs latios at all in any of my posts where I argue for his use. Sure, I may have mentioned him rampaging on rain teams, but personally, I don't see trick as something to argue for.
Click to expand...

I probably saw that on someone else's post then...

Well now that does free up a space on this hypothetical latios. So I guess hp Fire/DM/Psychoshock/Filler? Good set I suppose, depending on the filler move. You'd have to remove HP Fire if you're in the rain, but then Scizor punches Latios into little dragon bits.

Yea, playing devil's advocate is fun. I can't really say anything about that considering I'm the guy who showed everyone that w/o SB, poliwag outspeeds and OHKOs blaziken. Yes, that's right. PoliWAG.

This is the end of my reply to you, the rest is for anyone else who might consider Latios broken (yes it's not a very good argument per se, but this is more of a tack-on to what's already there. Do I really need to restate everything that's already been said?)

I just realized the ultimate counter to a choiced pokemon:

Protect.

I guess that the move holds true for all choiced pokes, but the fact that we can include Latios into the "like everyone else" group just helps solidify the fact that he isn't broken. This does matter after all, since specs is the only set that can actually KO it's counters (bar Scizor, but he's really only a check).
 
Choiced Latios isn't that amazing, but LO DM/Surf/HP/recover is definately suspect-worthy. Even if you predict correctly and switch Nattorei in on DM, you still have to deal with -2 HP fire, and it laughs at passive damage. I wouldn't call it broken myself, but i can see where people are coming from with the arguments about Latios being annoying. It's a royal pain in the butt.

That said, rain has Nattorei, sun has Heatran, sand has Tyranitar, and virtually all teams can run Jirachi to switch in on all of Latios's moves, so that argument about having no counters isn't 100% correct. I used to think it was broken myself when i was too stubborn to put any of these pokes on my teams, but as long as you dedicate a teamslot to one of his counters, he becomes a much lesser threat.
 
That's probably what I should have said from the beginning. I'm really bad at arguing to be honest. To this day, my favorite latios set is LO with Surf/Thunder/Hp Filler/Draco Meteor. Specifically for rain teams.
 
Gen. Empoleon said:
All Latios is good for is coming in, spamming Draco Meteor, then becoming set-up fodder like MoP already said. It's a good pokemon, yeah, but it's by no means strong enough to be considered broken. Excadrill loves -2 Specs Draco Meteors, they only deal 29.9% - 35.2%.

Scrafty soaks them up all day long too: 24.7% - 29.5%

And don't even get me started on Volcarona.
Click to expand...

Conkeldurr beats all of those
just saying
and dont say gyarados
because he can stone edge that too
 
JSND said:
Conkell is not safe switch in though. Try switching on Latios DM ang youll see
Click to expand...

I was saying he as a safe switch into Scrafty Gyarados Volcanara and Excadrill
and can threaten to KO them
so a partnership of Latios and Conkeldurr is pretty effective
sorry for the confusion
 
Its not foolproof
but he covers a decent amount of latios counters
even if a tar kills latios with persuit
conkeldurr can get a free bulk up off of tyranitars switch
 
Downf4ll said:
I just realized the ultimate counter to a choiced pokemon:

Protect.

I guess that the move holds true for all choiced pokes, but the fact that we can include Latios into the "like everyone else" group just helps solidify the fact that he isn't broken. This does matter after all, since specs is the only set that can actually KO it's counters (bar Scizor, but he's really only a check).
Click to expand...
This is why Leech Seed+Protect Ferrothorn is one of the best mons in the metagame right now, although running Reuniclus is pretty much mandatory alongside it; otherwise you'll get mauled by Conkeldurr.
 
Actually...Conkeldurr is a very risky thing to switch into any of those that gets their free set up on the switch.

For example:

+1 LO Scrafty using HJK can OHKO the standard Conkeldurr with just 1 Spike 57% of the time. (Not standard but exists since it can OHKO common check Scizor.)

+1 Gyarados STANDARDLY now uses Bounce all the time. You're really going to switch a Conkeldurr into a +1 Base 125 attack stat base 85 STAB SE attack? (Commonly used for Ferrothorn.)

+1 Volcarona does a minimum of 104% with a Jolly Psychic. (Commonly used for Terakion.)

You're at a pretty much disadvantage to these 3 despite raping the living fuck out of Tyranitar. Well that is until people are using Dragon Dance LO Giga Impact!!

403 attack vs 226 defense, 150 power(*1.5 *1.3), 414 max HP: 90.34% - 106.28%

:)

But anyways, you're absolutely wrong about Conkeldurr.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Actually...Conkeldurr is a very risky thing to switch into any of those that gets their free set up on the switch.

For example:

+1 LO Scrafty using HJK can OHKO the standard Conkeldurr with just 1 Spike 57% of the time. (Not standard but exists since it can OHKO common check Scizor.)

+1 Gyarados STANDARDLY now uses Bounce all the time. You're really going to switch a Conkeldurr into a +1 Base 125 attack stat base 85 STAB SE attack? (Commonly used for Ferrothorn.)

+1 Volcarona does a minimum of 104% with a Jolly Psychic. (Commonly used for Terakion.)

You're at a pretty much disadvantage to these 3 despite raping the living fuck out of Tyranitar. Well that is until people are using Dragon Dance LO Giga Impact!!

403 attack vs 226 defense, 150 power(*1.5 *1.3), 414 max HP: 90.34% - 106.28%

:)

But anyways, you're absolutely wrong about Conkeldurr.
Click to expand...

Jolly lowers SpA.

@ the discussion in general
And why would anybody use Stone Edge on Conk anyways..? I've not seen it once, and I do battle often. It doesn't seem like a great idea to use it, but whatever.
 
Start of turn 19
Latias used Dragon Pulse!
The attack of Latias missed!

The foe's Garchomp used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
Latias lost 108 HP! (29% of its health)
Latias fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Garchomp restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
alphatron: Outrage?
alphatron: On a steel/psychic type?
alphatron sent out Heatran!
Pointed stones dug into Heatran!

Heatran is floating on a balloon!
Click to expand...
Garchomp dodged the attack like a smug mother fucker! So this turn tells me a few things. One: My opponent's garchomp wasn't scarfed, meaning that he was either bluffing a scarf or just expected chomp to die. Two: Garchomp doesn't give two shits about the rules. Three: Outrage killed me anyway (I checked the damage calcs and 29% is the minimum amount of damage). Fortunately, I don't have only one check to garchomp! Heatran will handle this mess!

Start of turn 20
The foe's Garchomp used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 100 HP! (29% of its health)
Heatran's Air Balloon popped!

Heatran used Dragon Pulse!
The attack of Heatran missed!

The sandstorm rages!
Click to expand...
Hey guys, the effect of sand veil is that all attacks can and will miss during a sandstorm.


Even with two ways to handle the dang thing, sand veil sand FUCK NO and garchomp still continued his rampage. Fortunately for me, outrage lasted three turns instead of two and heatran was able to KO with dragon pulse on the next one. If heatran had died, I would have brought in Infernape to revenge. Even so, this shit is starting to get on my dang nerves. I don't want to make a complete 180 here and change my stance on garchomp, but I honestly wouldn't miss him if he was gone, or if No Sand Veil+Sandstream was somehow voted for. Maybe I'm just being spiteful right now, but I see exactly what people mean when they say that this shit really isn't competitive.
 
alphatron said:
Garchomp dodged the attack like a smug mother fucker! So this turn tells me a few things. One: My opponent's garchomp wasn't scarfed, meaning that he was either bluffing a scarf or just expected chomp to die. Two: Garchomp doesn't give two shits about the rules. Three: Outrage killed me anyway (I checked the damage calcs and 29% is the minimum amount of damage). Fortunately, I don't have only one check to garchomp! Heatran will handle this mess!


Hey guys, the effect of sand veil is that all attacks can and will miss during a sandstorm.


Even with two ways to handle the dang thing, sand veil sand FUCK NO and garchomp still continued his rampage. Fortunately for me, outrage lasted three turns instead of two and heatran was able to KO with dragon pulse on the next one. If heatran had died, I would have brought in Infernape to revenge. Even so, this shit is starting to get on my dang nerves. I don't want to make a complete 180 here and change my stance on garchomp, but I honestly wouldn't miss him if he was gone, or if No Sand Veil+Sandstream was somehow voted for. Maybe I'm just being spiteful right now, but I see exactly what people mean when they say that this shit really isn't competitive.
Click to expand...
totally agree
 
Waaaay late response, but...

Alphatron, Latios cannot kill Jirachi. In the sun, HP Fire will do the job. But that is Ninetales' support killing Jirachi, not the same thing as Latios doing it all by itself.

Also, Heatran can switch into non-Surf Latios quite safely... if it's Sp Def Heatran... which no one runs...

edit: Yeah, Garchomp is a smug motherfucker. I carry three checks to him on my team, because I assume that one will fall to his bullshit. But I still don't think he's banworthy, for reasons I can't quite explain.


Virizion said:
@ the discussion in general
And why would anybody use Stone Edge on Conk anyways..? I've not seen it once, and I do battle often. It doesn't seem like a great idea to use it, but whatever.
Click to expand...
It's so much better than Payback, IMO. With Payback you hit... Ghosts and Psychics. The only common Ghosts are Jellicent, who can Cursed Body your Payback if he gets lucky, and Gengar, who can SubDisable your Payback. Also, Payback doesn't double power on the switch-in anymore. Psychics, such as Reuniclus, can just Psychic you back to hell anyway, and the ones that can't are too frail to switch in on you in the first place.

Stone Edge, on the other hand, allows you to smash Bug-type switch-ins, such as Volcarona, and Flying-type ones, such as Thunderbro and Tornabro. I personally find Stone Edge much more useful.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
Actually...Conkeldurr is a very risky thing to switch into any of those that gets their free set up on the switch.

For example:

+1 LO Scrafty using HJK can OHKO the standard Conkeldurr with just 1 Spike 57% of the time. (Not standard but exists since it can OHKO common check Scizor.)


But anyways, you're absolutely wrong about Conkeldurr.
Click to expand...

I use this Scrafty currently and the problem here is this.

Conk switches in
Scrafty uses DD!

Then on the next turn Conk annihilates it with Mach Punch, so yeah.
 
Even with two ways to handle the dang thing, sand veil sand FUCK NO and garchomp still continued his rampage. Fortunately for me, outrage lasted three turns instead of two and heatran was able to KO with dragon pulse on the next one. If heatran had died, I would have brought in Infernape to revenge. Even so, this shit is starting to get on my dang nerves. I don't want to make a complete 180 here and change my stance on garchomp, but I honestly wouldn't miss him if he was gone, or if No Sand Veil+Sandstream was somehow voted for. Maybe I'm just being spiteful right now, but I see exactly what people mean when they say that this shit really isn't competitive.
Click to expand...

So because of this one experience you are, in fact, doing a complete 180 (your words not mine) on Garchomp? And I can't help but notice that you are quick to harp on the RNG when Sand Veil activates twice, but when, in the very same battle, it turns and goes your way with a 3-turn Outrage, the RNG is just fine.

On top of that, you've already outlined how you had an additional backup plan to revenge it (Infernape), which I doubt you specifically came up with while thinking about Garchomp. It's just another example of the metagame being able to contain Garchomp.

Just my two cents, though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top